Ideas how to make amends

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Give her time.

Once trust is fully eroded between two people, regaining it is a tough call.

Some people can eventually forgive the other person after the other person attempts to rebuild trust.

Others simply cannot overcome the stinging betrayal.

It's a risk that anyone who is untrue takes.

I wouldn't bribe her w/material items & trips.

What she wants from you is intangible.

She wants the full ability to TRUST you again.

I agree with what you said but I will add that there are small steps that the person who did the betraying can do to repair the relationship. What does his spouse need to feel comfortable again or special in their relationship? What did they used to do together that created the emotional bond. I read online that after a betrayal the couple needs to reconnect in new ways through new hobbies, experiences, etc. to create newer positive experiences and rekindle their love.

[Anonymous]

I am the only one who finds all of this exhausting?

I mean, seriously, OP on line flirted with an ex who was no where near him physically. Would I be pissed if my wife did that? Of course. Would I threaten to rip up the marriage, disrupt the kids home, consider myself a cheated-on spouse? Require years of therapy, counselling? No.

Good grief - people are human. OP made a mistake, pretty basic one at that. Years of purgatory seem dramatic. Moveon.com and get back to life already. Who has time for this much drama over on line flirting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago. I essentially did the same thing, even though I love my spouse very much. I had a weakness with this one person from my past who I should never have allowed back into my life, even as a friend. It took a good three months until we weren't talking about it and shedding tears about it every day. My spouse never wanted out of the marriage over it, though, that I know of.

What helped was for me to offer complete transparency, which I continued to do to this day, about 9 months later. I also answered all questions openly, honestly, and without being upset that the questions were asked in the first place. I think it also helped that my spouse saw how upset I was, saw the regret and shame I felt. I also went into counseling, which we are now doing together.

It sounds like the difference for you is that your spouse does not seem to want to work on the marriage. Is that true? Are there other major issues within your marriage that you have not mentioned? For us--and I know some people will call BS on this -- but we were actually pretty happy before this happened. Not perfect, but happy and in a loving marriage. What's your history?

If you're both willing to work on the marriage, to express yourselves openly, and to show vulnerabilities, you can heal from this. Dig deeper in order to get to know each other more. Just a short 9 months later my spouse and I are doing so much better, but we have both worked for it.

OP here. Thanks for sharing. This is exactly what happened with this particular person. She doesn't really want to work on the marriage b/c she doesn't think she did anything wrong. It took several weeks to get her to come to counseling and it went better than I thought this past weekend. But out of the session, she is expecting that I am already planning everything out and jumping through hoops.

We were pretty happy in the marriage before this happened just like you. She will work on it, but only if I am able to demonstrate my love. I just need to know what she considers amends so that I am not grasping at straws.

I am the PP you are responding to. The thing is, she didn't do anything to "deserve" your emotional affair or whatever the two of you have decided to call it. My spouse did nothing to cause me to have an emotional affair, either. My spouse did a lot of self-blaming even though I always take 100% responsibility, offering no excuses. Now, throughout the counseling process we have discovered the weaknesses in our marriage. We haven't focused on finger-pointing, but rather strengthening ourselves as individuals and strengthening our marriage. It has allowed us to focus on each of our needs within the relationship, and what the other can do in order to fulfill them. This was sure a shitty way to go about it, and I wouldn't recommend it, but we are ending up stronger because of my emotional affair and the ensuing work we have put into our marriage.

It sounds like the difference is that your wife wants you to just fix things. This is the thing that sucks about affairs. You are the one who betrayed your spouse, but the betrayed spouse, however innocent, has to do a lot of the work in order to heal things. The affair is your fault, but because it is a marriage, you can't fix it by yourself. You both need to do the work. That was the hardest part of what I did-- knowing that I could not just fix everything I fucked up, but that a huge part of the onus was on my innocent spouse.

Helpful response. You are right. Both parties have to want to work on it even the betrayed spouse.

A good marriage counselor will have the cheater work on himself first, find the root cause. You can spin wheels for years if you jump into marriage counseling too soon. If the person who's first instinct is to turn away from the marriage as soon as he has to do dishes and "help" with his own child... there are issues that are not related to the marriage. Anxiety, depression, WTF is wrong with somebody who <6 months after his first child is born is cheating because he had to help out.

After individual counseling to understand your core issues, then you can work on marriage counseling.

If the cheater comes into marriage counseling with "I had to do dishes" and "I had to do a night feeding" and the marriage counselor is like "really, grow up" the cheating spouse will feel ganged up on. If he is in individual counseling, the counselor can find out why he things he should not do dishes and care for his own child. Once he realizes he is an equal partner and can actually be an equal partner then they can go to marriage counseling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Delete the other woman's info, get rid of the texts, be completely open in terms of letting your wife see your phone, your texts, emails, etc. Don't ever say "I'm going out" but be specific and let her know where you're going.

Basically, be HONEST and TRANSPARENT. Be patient.

All thie ^^^
Making amends after 7 months of texting & flirting with an ex is going to take time. A lot of time. Keep being there for her.

I like that you are going to therapy. That will help.

How about you ask your wife what she wants to see from you?

I already did and she doesn't want to feel like she has to tell me how to make amends. I should already know how and it has to be my own ideas. I am stuck here other than setting up date nights or a weekend trip. I'm not winning any points for the day to day help that makes her life easier.

So she expects you to be a mind reader? That's helpful.

No, she expects OP to put his own energy into figuring out how to make amends. He broke it, he shouldn't make her spend time thinking of ways to fix it. Plus, if he is just doing what she tells him to, it is inauthentic. He is not doing it because HE wants to and HE thinks it would be a good idea, he is doing it because he was told to do it and if he does it he thinks the forgiveness box is checked off.

As previous PPs note, OP seems to view himself as a subordinate in this relationship. He is "helping" with the baby. He is "being supportive". Etc. All this sounds good on the surface -- "I am a good guy, I help." -- but the reality underneath is that OP is not an all in, equal partner.

OP, it sounds like the revelation of the cheating prompted your wife to evaluate the relationship. He is what she saw: "Hmm. I don't have an equal partner in parenting. I don't have a reliable and trustworthy intimate partner. I am a financial equal and can take care of myself and our kid financially. So, why the hell am I married? I should just get out of this crappy relationship where I am putting in more effort and care than my partner. I don't want to live like that for the rest of my life. I don't want to teach my kids to expect so little in life. The kids and I would be better off divorced. "

BTW, on the "she doesn't believe I didn't sleep with the ex" problem. Why should she trust your answer on this? You have already demonstrated your untrustworthiness. Who in their right mind trusts a known liar (you)? You can only say to your wife, "What I did was very wrong, and I am trying to fix myself so that it never happens again. I want you to know that I didn't meet or sleep with this woman, and that I never intended or thought about doing so. I can understand why you don't believe me though given what I did do. I want you to know that I am fully committed to you and to the extent it can allay your fears, you have full access to my phone, texts, emails, whereabouts, etc., forever. "

And, finally, if you really don't understand that what you did was cheating, you need much more time in therapy. What you did was manipulative -- you kept something secret from your wife you knew she wouldn't like in order to avoid her reacting in a way that you wouldn't like. Responsible adults don't behave like that. It's called "intimate betrayal," and it's abusive and can be traumatic, especially when the partner is in a vulnerable, dependent position (like being a new mom where she is dependent on the husband for economic and parenting support). Read up on it.

I can appreciate where this is coming from, but it is an immature and unproductive approach. The reality is that it takes both partners in the marriage in order to fix it. There is no single one thing that OP can do on his own that will magically fix things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Delete the other woman's info, get rid of the texts, be completely open in terms of letting your wife see your phone, your texts, emails, etc. Don't ever say "I'm going out" but be specific and let her know where you're going.

Basically, be HONEST and TRANSPARENT. Be patient.

All thie ^^^
Making amends after 7 months of texting & flirting with an ex is going to take time. A lot of time. Keep being there for her.

I like that you are going to therapy. That will help.

How about you ask your wife what she wants to see from you?

I already did and she doesn't want to feel like she has to tell me how to make amends. I should already know how and it has to be my own ideas. I am stuck here other than setting up date nights or a weekend trip. I'm not winning any points for the day to day help that makes her life easier.

So she expects you to be a mind reader? That's helpful.

No, she expects OP to put his own energy into figuring out how to make amends. He broke it, he shouldn't make her spend time thinking of ways to fix it. Plus, if he is just doing what she tells him to, it is inauthentic. He is not doing it because HE wants to and HE thinks it would be a good idea, he is doing it because he was told to do it and if he does it he thinks the forgiveness box is checked off.

As previous PPs note, OP seems to view himself as a subordinate in this relationship. He is "helping" with the baby. He is "being supportive". Etc. All this sounds good on the surface -- "I am a good guy, I help." -- but the reality underneath is that OP is not an all in, equal partner.

OP, it sounds like the revelation of the cheating prompted your wife to evaluate the relationship. He is what she saw: "Hmm. I don't have an equal partner in parenting. I don't have a reliable and trustworthy intimate partner. I am a financial equal and can take care of myself and our kid financially. So, why the hell am I married? I should just get out of this crappy relationship where I am putting in more effort and care than my partner. I don't want to live like that for the rest of my life. I don't want to teach my kids to expect so little in life. The kids and I would be better off divorced. "

BTW, on the "she doesn't believe I didn't sleep with the ex" problem. Why should she trust your answer on this? You have already demonstrated your untrustworthiness. Who in their right mind trusts a known liar (you)? You can only say to your wife, "What I did was very wrong, and I am trying to fix myself so that it never happens again. I want you to know that I didn't meet or sleep with this woman, and that I never intended or thought about doing so. I can understand why you don't believe me though given what I did do. I want you to know that I am fully committed to you and to the extent it can allay your fears, you have full access to my phone, texts, emails, whereabouts, etc., forever. "

And, finally, if you really don't understand that what you did was cheating, you need much more time in therapy. What you did was manipulative -- you kept something secret from your wife you knew she wouldn't like in order to avoid her reacting in a way that you wouldn't like. Responsible adults don't behave like that. It's called "intimate betrayal," and it's abusive and can be traumatic, especially when the partner is in a vulnerable, dependent position (like being a new mom where she is dependent on the husband for economic and parenting support). Read up on it.

I can appreciate where this is coming from, but it is an immature and unproductive approach. The reality is that it takes both partners in the marriage in order to fix it. There is no single one thing that OP can do on his own that will magically fix things.

Except the OP said there was nothing wrong with the marriage. There is something wrong with him. He needs to fix himself.

It's like going to marriage counseling for alcoholism. That will not stop a person from drinking.

[Anonymous]

OP

It sounds like you want a quick solution and/or something that will make her feel better about staying married to you. Wanting your marriage and family to stay intact and desperate to keep it so is understandable.

Here is what I suggest. Tell her once more that you are truly sorry, perhaps in writing share some 'things' or events to illustrate why you love her but keep it simple, but in a way to let her know that she and your child are very important to you. Then ask her to defer any decisions for a time, commit to getting a new counselor, that grand gesture thing sucked, then shut up about it. What you are doing seems to me is pressuring her to 'change' her mind or to forgive you on your time and terms. Time is your ally if you let it be. Oh, and assure her that you will listen if she wants to talk, share or even vent. Then, shut up and listen and don't debate. If she asks questions answer them as tactfully as possible but don't dig your own grave by bald faced lying in hopes the truth won't come out.

BTW, lest you think this is a woman's perspective, nope, I am a man and well past eligible for AARP membership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago. I essentially did the same thing, even though I love my spouse very much. I had a weakness with this one person from my past who I should never have allowed back into my life, even as a friend. It took a good three months until we weren't talking about it and shedding tears about it every day. My spouse never wanted out of the marriage over it, though, that I know of.

What helped was for me to offer complete transparency, which I continued to do to this day, about 9 months later. I also answered all questions openly, honestly, and without being upset that the questions were asked in the first place. I think it also helped that my spouse saw how upset I was, saw the regret and shame I felt. I also went into counseling, which we are now doing together.

It sounds like the difference for you is that your spouse does not seem to want to work on the marriage. Is that true? Are there other major issues within your marriage that you have not mentioned? For us--and I know some people will call BS on this -- but we were actually pretty happy before this happened. Not perfect, but happy and in a loving marriage. What's your history?

If you're both willing to work on the marriage, to express yourselves openly, and to show vulnerabilities, you can heal from this. Dig deeper in order to get to know each other more. Just a short 9 months later my spouse and I are doing so much better, but we have both worked for it.

OP here. Thanks for sharing. This is exactly what happened with this particular person. She doesn't really want to work on the marriage b/c she doesn't think she did anything wrong. It took several weeks to get her to come to counseling and it went better than I thought this past weekend. But out of the session, she is expecting that I am already planning everything out and jumping through hoops.

We were pretty happy in the marriage before this happened just like you. She will work on it, but only if I am able to demonstrate my love. I just need to know what she considers amends so that I am not grasping at straws.

I am the PP you are responding to. The thing is, she didn't do anything to "deserve" your emotional affair or whatever the two of you have decided to call it. My spouse did nothing to cause me to have an emotional affair, either. My spouse did a lot of self-blaming even though I always take 100% responsibility, offering no excuses. Now, throughout the counseling process we have discovered the weaknesses in our marriage. We haven't focused on finger-pointing, but rather strengthening ourselves as individuals and strengthening our marriage. It has allowed us to focus on each of our needs within the relationship, and what the other can do in order to fulfill them. This was sure a shitty way to go about it, and I wouldn't recommend it, but we are ending up stronger because of my emotional affair and the ensuing work we have put into our marriage.

It sounds like the difference is that your wife wants you to just fix things. This is the thing that sucks about affairs. You are the one who betrayed your spouse, but the betrayed spouse, however innocent, has to do a lot of the work in order to heal things. The affair is your fault, but because it is a marriage, you can't fix it by yourself. You both need to do the work. That was the hardest part of what I did-- knowing that I could not just fix everything I fucked up, but that a huge part of the onus was on my innocent spouse.

As a cheated upon wife, I actually find the whole above exchange between OP and PP offensive, delusional and so typical of the kind of "reconciliation" that is forced upon wives. First, when OP says "she doesn't want to work on marriage because she doesn't think she did anything wrong," OP's wife is oh, so right. The failure of the wife to do something or the failure of an aspect of a marriage or the OP's "not getting his need met in marriage" is not the cause of cheating (whether it's physical sex, or emotional cheating). The cause of that is the OP himself -- his own weakness in seeking to get needs met in an inappropriate way. That is not wife's fault. That is not something wife can fix in therapy; it's not her job at all to fix OP.

In fact, I view cheating as emotionally abusive and it is NOT appropriate for a therapist to solve abuse by having the abuser and the victim together in therapy. I know lots of marital counselors take this approach -- putting the couple into therapy to fix the problem in the marriage -- but it is wrong. PP's description of therapy sounds like this approach. Basically the message sent to the spouse by this kind of therapy is, "you failed to provide something, so your spouse sought it outside the marriage. If you provide that something now and in the future, then spouse will no longer cheat." This is really manipulative. Most of the time, cheating partners like PP believe the "marriage is stronger" but in reality, the wife has just decided to swallow the crap and move on. This doesn't really make the marriage stronger.

PP is right about one thing -- you can't fix a marriage by yourself and the cheating partner cannot by himself continue the marriage. It is entirely up to the victim spouse to decide -- does she want a marriage like this (one broken by trust)? Does she want to live, on balance, with this partner (who has X good qualities and Y crappy ones).

[Anonymous]

13:40 Is 100% correct.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
As a cheated upon wife, I actually find the whole above exchange between OP and PP offensive, delusional and so typical of the kind of "reconciliation" that is forced upon wives. First, when OP says "she doesn't want to work on marriage because she doesn't think she did anything wrong," OP's wife is oh, so right. The failure of the wife to do something or the failure of an aspect of a marriage or the OP's "not getting his need met in marriage" is not the cause of cheating (whether it's physical sex, or emotional cheating). The cause of that is the OP himself -- his own weakness in seeking to get needs met in an inappropriate way. That is not wife's fault. That is not something wife can fix in therapy; it's not her job at all to fix OP.

In fact, I view cheating as emotionally abusive and it is NOT appropriate for a therapist to solve abuse by having the abuser and the victim together in therapy. I know lots of marital counselors take this approach -- putting the couple into therapy to fix the problem in the marriage -- but it is wrong. PP's description of therapy sounds like this approach. Basically the message sent to the spouse by this kind of therapy is, "you failed to provide something, so your spouse sought it outside the marriage. If you provide that something now and in the future, then spouse will no longer cheat." This is really manipulative. Most of the time, cheating partners like PP believe the "marriage is stronger" but in reality, the wife has just decided to swallow the crap and move on. This doesn't really make the marriage stronger.

PP is right about one thing -- you can't fix a marriage by yourself and the cheating partner cannot by himself continue the marriage. It is entirely up to the victim spouse to decide -- does she want a marriage like this (one broken by trust)? Does she want to live, on balance, with this partner (who has X good qualities and Y crappy ones).

PP, you have valid points. One being that cheating is an action where the responsibility ultimately belongs to the cheater. Yes, it's emotionally abusive. Yes, too often therapists try to reconcile when both parties are not ready for that. Yes, there is no guarantee that a spouse won't cheat again regardless of what might be changed or added.

Now, as to the spouse who has been cheated upon. It is not inappropriate, and at times absolutely advisable, for that spouse to self assess. Why? Because their behavior could have also been abusive or neglectful or any of a number of things. Whether that had anything to do with the cheater cheating doesn't matter. If it is an issue that needs to be addressed shooting the cheater in the ass as the sole offender doesn't solve anything nor does it let the aggrieved spouse take a get out of any responsibility for my part of the issues in our marriage card. In fact if the marriage is to survive it won't have much of a chance unless both address what they need to address within themselves and then the marriage. As you stated, ''you can't fix a marriage by yourself'' and I will add, nor can you fix a marriage if your focus is only on the asshole who cheated and not also on yourself.

There is no way for anyone in this forum, or even near to the lives of these people, that can accurately assess and recommend. The only thing that's possible is to share whatever knowledge and experience we each have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago. I essentially did the same thing, even though I love my spouse very much. I had a weakness with this one person from my past who I should never have allowed back into my life, even as a friend. It took a good three months until we weren't talking about it and shedding tears about it every day. My spouse never wanted out of the marriage over it, though, that I know of.

What helped was for me to offer complete transparency, which I continued to do to this day, about 9 months later. I also answered all questions openly, honestly, and without being upset that the questions were asked in the first place. I think it also helped that my spouse saw how upset I was, saw the regret and shame I felt. I also went into counseling, which we are now doing together.

It sounds like the difference for you is that your spouse does not seem to want to work on the marriage. Is that true? Are there other major issues within your marriage that you have not mentioned? For us--and I know some people will call BS on this -- but we were actually pretty happy before this happened. Not perfect, but happy and in a loving marriage. What's your history?

If you're both willing to work on the marriage, to express yourselves openly, and to show vulnerabilities, you can heal from this. Dig deeper in order to get to know each other more. Just a short 9 months later my spouse and I are doing so much better, but we have both worked for it.

OP here. Thanks for sharing. This is exactly what happened with this particular person. She doesn't really want to work on the marriage b/c she doesn't think she did anything wrong. It took several weeks to get her to come to counseling and it went better than I thought this past weekend. But out of the session, she is expecting that I am already planning everything out and jumping through hoops.

We were pretty happy in the marriage before this happened just like you. She will work on it, but only if I am able to demonstrate my love. I just need to know what she considers amends so that I am not grasping at straws.

I am the PP you are responding to. The thing is, she didn't do anything to "deserve" your emotional affair or whatever the two of you have decided to call it. My spouse did nothing to cause me to have an emotional affair, either. My spouse did a lot of self-blaming even though I always take 100% responsibility, offering no excuses. Now, throughout the counseling process we have discovered the weaknesses in our marriage. We haven't focused on finger-pointing, but rather strengthening ourselves as individuals and strengthening our marriage. It has allowed us to focus on each of our needs within the relationship, and what the other can do in order to fulfill them. This was sure a shitty way to go about it, and I wouldn't recommend it, but we are ending up stronger because of my emotional affair and the ensuing work we have put into our marriage.

It sounds like the difference is that your wife wants you to just fix things. This is the thing that sucks about affairs. You are the one who betrayed your spouse, but the betrayed spouse, however innocent, has to do a lot of the work in order to heal things. The affair is your fault, but because it is a marriage, you can't fix it by yourself. You both need to do the work. That was the hardest part of what I did-- knowing that I could not just fix everything I fucked up, but that a huge part of the onus was on my innocent spouse.

As a cheated upon wife, I actually find the whole above exchange between OP and PP offensive, delusional and so typical of the kind of "reconciliation" that is forced upon wives. First, when OP says "she doesn't want to work on marriage because she doesn't think she did anything wrong," OP's wife is oh, so right. The failure of the wife to do something or the failure of an aspect of a marriage or the OP's "not getting his need met in marriage" is not the cause of cheating (whether it's physical sex, or emotional cheating). The cause of that is the OP himself -- his own weakness in seeking to get needs met in an inappropriate way. That is not wife's fault. That is not something wife can fix in therapy; it's not her job at all to fix OP.

In fact, I view cheating as emotionally abusive and it is NOT appropriate for a therapist to solve abuse by having the abuser and the victim together in therapy. I know lots of marital counselors take this approach -- putting the couple into therapy to fix the problem in the marriage -- but it is wrong. PP's description of therapy sounds like this approach. Basically the message sent to the spouse by this kind of therapy is, "you failed to provide something, so your spouse sought it outside the marriage. If you provide that something now and in the future, then spouse will no longer cheat." This is really manipulative. Most of the time, cheating partners like PP believe the "marriage is stronger" but in reality, the wife has just decided to swallow the crap and move on. This doesn't really make the marriage stronger.

PP is right about one thing -- you can't fix a marriage by yourself and the cheating partner cannot by himself continue the marriage. It is entirely up to the victim spouse to decide -- does she want a marriage like this (one broken by trust)? Does she want to live, on balance, with this partner (who has X good qualities and Y crappy ones).

I am the PP you quoted, and I never said that the weakness of the marriage were what caused the cheating. However, the ensuing process of healing also presents an opportunity to work to strengthen the relationship and learn about one another's needs.

The bottom line, though, is that some of the burden in the healing process IS on the cheated upon spouse, by nature of a process that involves the relationship between two people. It is a sad and difficult to accept truth, but still the truth.

[Anonymous]

Also, you can choose to believe it or not, but my marriage IS stronger (I am the one who had the emotional affair). It has been a very painful process for my spouse (and for me), but believe me, it is stronger. It is not without scars because of the wounds I inflicted on my spouse.

And it is not stronger because my spouse fixed something that drove me to an emotional affair, because the reason I had an emotional affair had nothing to do with something my spouse was lacking. I had an emotional affair because of my own weaknesses and character flaws, and I own that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was in your shoes not too long ago. I essentially did the same thing, even though I love my spouse very much. I had a weakness with this one person from my past who I should never have allowed back into my life, even as a friend. It took a good three months until we weren't talking about it and shedding tears about it every day. My spouse never wanted out of the marriage over it, though, that I know of.

What helped was for me to offer complete transparency, which I continued to do to this day, about 9 months later. I also answered all questions openly, honestly, and without being upset that the questions were asked in the first place. I think it also helped that my spouse saw how upset I was, saw the regret and shame I felt. I also went into counseling, which we are now doing together.

It sounds like the difference for you is that your spouse does not seem to want to work on the marriage. Is that true? Are there other major issues within your marriage that you have not mentioned? For us--and I know some people will call BS on this -- but we were actually pretty happy before this happened. Not perfect, but happy and in a loving marriage. What's your history?

If you're both willing to work on the marriage, to express yourselves openly, and to show vulnerabilities, you can heal from this. Dig deeper in order to get to know each other more. Just a short 9 months later my spouse and I are doing so much better, but we have both worked for it.

OP here. Thanks for sharing. This is exactly what happened with this particular person. She doesn't really want to work on the marriage b/c she doesn't think she did anything wrong. It took several weeks to get her to come to counseling and it went better than I thought this past weekend. But out of the session, she is expecting that I am already planning everything out and jumping through hoops.

We were pretty happy in the marriage before this happened just like you. She will work on it, but only if I am able to demonstrate my love. I just need to know what she considers amends so that I am not grasping at straws.

I am the PP you are responding to. The thing is, she didn't do anything to "deserve" your emotional affair or whatever the two of you have decided to call it. My spouse did nothing to cause me to have an emotional affair, either. My spouse did a lot of self-blaming even though I always take 100% responsibility, offering no excuses. Now, throughout the counseling process we have discovered the weaknesses in our marriage. We haven't focused on finger-pointing, but rather strengthening ourselves as individuals and strengthening our marriage. It has allowed us to focus on each of our needs within the relationship, and what the other can do in order to fulfill them. This was sure a shitty way to go about it, and I wouldn't recommend it, but we are ending up stronger because of my emotional affair and the ensuing work we have put into our marriage.

It sounds like the difference is that your wife wants you to just fix things. This is the thing that sucks about affairs. You are the one who betrayed your spouse, but the betrayed spouse, however innocent, has to do a lot of the work in order to heal things. The affair is your fault, but because it is a marriage, you can't fix it by yourself. You both need to do the work. That was the hardest part of what I did-- knowing that I could not just fix everything I fucked up, but that a huge part of the onus was on my innocent spouse.

As a cheated upon wife, I actually find the whole above exchange between OP and PP offensive, delusional and so typical of the kind of "reconciliation" that is forced upon wives. First, when OP says "she doesn't want to work on marriage because she doesn't think she did anything wrong," OP's wife is oh, so right. The failure of the wife to do something or the failure of an aspect of a marriage or the OP's "not getting his need met in marriage" is not the cause of cheating (whether it's physical sex, or emotional cheating). The cause of that is the OP himself -- his own weakness in seeking to get needs met in an inappropriate way. That is not wife's fault. That is not something wife can fix in therapy; it's not her job at all to fix OP.

In fact, I view cheating as emotionally abusive and it is NOT appropriate for a therapist to solve abuse by having the abuser and the victim together in therapy. I know lots of marital counselors take this approach -- putting the couple into therapy to fix the problem in the marriage -- but it is wrong. PP's description of therapy sounds like this approach. Basically the message sent to the spouse by this kind of therapy is, "you failed to provide something, so your spouse sought it outside the marriage. If you provide that something now and in the future, then spouse will no longer cheat." This is really manipulative. Most of the time, cheating partners like PP believe the "marriage is stronger" but in reality, the wife has just decided to swallow the crap and move on. This doesn't really make the marriage stronger.

PP is right about one thing -- you can't fix a marriage by yourself and the cheating partner cannot by himself continue the marriage. It is entirely up to the victim spouse to decide -- does she want a marriage like this (one broken by trust)? Does she want to live, on balance, with this partner (who has X good qualities and Y crappy ones).

I am the PP you quoted, and I never said that the weakness of the marriage were what caused the cheating. However, the ensuing process of healing also presents an opportunity to work to strengthen the relationship and learn about one another's needs.

The bottom line, though, is that some of the burden in the healing process IS on the cheated upon spouse, by nature of a process that involves the relationship between two people. It is a sad and difficult to accept truth, but still the truth.

If there are weakness in the marriage that need to be addressed they need to be addressed eventually. But when a spouse says, there was nothing wrong with the marriage and I cheated because I was mad about changing a diaper and doing a dish, then marriage counseling will not fix that.

Sure every single couple on the face of the earth could go to marriage counseling to "become stronger".. but that does not have to be done by every single married couple. It does not have to be done simply because there was cheating.

The problem here is the cheater does not understand why he cheated, he needs individual counseling. He also wants to wave a magic wand and have it magically disappear. Which showsa hell of a lot of immaturity on his part. This is all individual and has nothing to do with the marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, you can choose to believe it or not, but my marriage IS stronger (I am the one who had the emotional affair). It has been a very painful process for my spouse (and for me), but believe me, it is stronger. It is not without scars because of the wounds I inflicted on my spouse.

And it is not stronger because my spouse fixed something that drove me to an emotional affair, because the reason I had an emotional affair had nothing to do with something my spouse was lacking. I had an emotional affair because of my own weaknesses and character flaws, and I own that.

Bravo!!!! I would love to have a drink with you and celebrate you! You obviously have done the hard work that needs to be done to be an unbelievable partner. Wish there are more of you out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Delete the other woman's info, get rid of the texts, be completely open in terms of letting your wife see your phone, your texts, emails, etc. Don't ever say "I'm going out" but be specific and let her know where you're going.

Basically, be HONEST and TRANSPARENT. Be patient.

All thie ^^^
Making amends after 7 months of texting & flirting with an ex is going to take time. A lot of time. Keep being there for her.

I like that you are going to therapy. That will help.

How about you ask your wife what she wants to see from you?

I already did and she doesn't want to feel like she has to tell me how to make amends. I should already know how and it has to be my own ideas. I am stuck here other than setting up date nights or a weekend trip. I'm not winning any points for the day to day help that makes her life easier.

So she expects you to be a mind reader? That's helpful.

No, she expects OP to put his own energy into figuring out how to make amends. He broke it, he shouldn't make her spend time thinking of ways to fix it. Plus, if he is just doing what she tells him to, it is inauthentic. He is not doing it because HE wants to and HE thinks it would be a good idea, he is doing it because he was told to do it and if he does it he thinks the forgiveness box is checked off.

As previous PPs note, OP seems to view himself as a subordinate in this relationship. He is "helping" with the baby. He is "being supportive". Etc. All this sounds good on the surface -- "I am a good guy, I help." -- but the reality underneath is that OP is not an all in, equal partner.

OP, it sounds like the revelation of the cheating prompted your wife to evaluate the relationship. He is what she saw: "Hmm. I don't have an equal partner in parenting. I don't have a reliable and trustworthy intimate partner. I am a financial equal and can take care of myself and our kid financially. So, why the hell am I married? I should just get out of this crappy relationship where I am putting in more effort and care than my partner. I don't want to live like that for the rest of my life. I don't want to teach my kids to expect so little in life. The kids and I would be better off divorced. "

BTW, on the "she doesn't believe I didn't sleep with the ex" problem. Why should she trust your answer on this? You have already demonstrated your untrustworthiness. Who in their right mind trusts a known liar (you)? You can only say to your wife, "What I did was very wrong, and I am trying to fix myself so that it never happens again. I want you to know that I didn't meet or sleep with this woman, and that I never intended or thought about doing so. I can understand why you don't believe me though given what I did do. I want you to know that I am fully committed to you and to the extent it can allay your fears, you have full access to my phone, texts, emails, whereabouts, etc., forever. "

And, finally, if you really don't understand that what you did was cheating, you need much more time in therapy. What you did was manipulative -- you kept something secret from your wife you knew she wouldn't like in order to avoid her reacting in a way that you wouldn't like. Responsible adults don't behave like that. It's called "intimate betrayal," and it's abusive and can be traumatic, especially when the partner is in a vulnerable, dependent position (like being a new mom where she is dependent on the husband for economic and parenting support). Read up on it.

I can appreciate where this is coming from, but it is an immature and unproductive approach. The reality is that it takes both partners in the marriage in order to fix it. There is no single one thing that OP can do on his own that will magically fix things.

That is true. There is no single thing that the OP can do on his own that will magically fix things. That is because the OP needs to acknowledge that he does not have total control of the marriage. That is the essence of cheating -- control. People cheat in order to control the consequences of the thing they want to do. The cheater has to give up control. Cheater gets to decide what he wants to do -- cheat or not cheat. Victim spouse gets to decide what he/she wants to do -- stay or go.

What is really "immature and unproductive" is for the perpetrator spouse to expect the victim spouse to do his work for him. The work that the perpetrator spouse has to do is decide what kind of person he wants to be. That is his own decision. Not something the victim spouse should dictate to him. Perpetrator spouse has to decide how to make amends. Does he want to be the kind of guy that is transparent? Does he want to be the kind of guy who does what needs to be done in the house and parenting without being asked or directed? He can do all those things and victim spouse still may decide to divorce.

Perpetrator spouse wants a guarantee and control. Perpetrator spouse wants to know, if I do X, then the marriage continues. That is not how life works. He may do everything he thinks is right and his spouse still may want divorce. The issue isn't the marriage, it's him.

You are right, the victim spouse also should be doing "work," but her work is deciding what kind of life SHE wants. Maybe her work involves realizing that she'll never really be able to live with the scar on her trust. In the end, the victim spouse has to realize she also doesn't have "control." There is nothing he/she can do to guarantee that the cheating won't happen again. All she can do is decide every day if she is living the life she wants. She has to focus her control on her own life decisions, only one of which is about the marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Delete the other woman's info, get rid of the texts, be completely open in terms of letting your wife see your phone, your texts, emails, etc. Don't ever say "I'm going out" but be specific and let her know where you're going.

Basically, be HONEST and TRANSPARENT. Be patient.

All thie ^^^
Making amends after 7 months of texting & flirting with an ex is going to take time. A lot of time. Keep being there for her.

I like that you are going to therapy. That will help.

How about you ask your wife what she wants to see from you?

I already did and she doesn't want to feel like she has to tell me how to make amends. I should already know how and it has to be my own ideas. I am stuck here other than setting up date nights or a weekend trip. I'm not winning any points for the day to day help that makes her life easier.

So she expects you to be a mind reader? That's helpful.

No, she expects OP to put his own energy into figuring out how to make amends. He broke it, he shouldn't make her spend time thinking of ways to fix it. Plus, if he is just doing what she tells him to, it is inauthentic. He is not doing it because HE wants to and HE thinks it would be a good idea, he is doing it because he was told to do it and if he does it he thinks the forgiveness box is checked off.

As previous PPs note, OP seems to view himself as a subordinate in this relationship. He is "helping" with the baby. He is "being supportive". Etc. All this sounds good on the surface -- "I am a good guy, I help." -- but the reality underneath is that OP is not an all in, equal partner.

OP, it sounds like the revelation of the cheating prompted your wife to evaluate the relationship. He is what she saw: "Hmm. I don't have an equal partner in parenting. I don't have a reliable and trustworthy intimate partner. I am a financial equal and can take care of myself and our kid financially. So, why the hell am I married? I should just get out of this crappy relationship where I am putting in more effort and care than my partner. I don't want to live like that for the rest of my life. I don't want to teach my kids to expect so little in life. The kids and I would be better off divorced. "

BTW, on the "she doesn't believe I didn't sleep with the ex" problem. Why should she trust your answer on this? You have already demonstrated your untrustworthiness. Who in their right mind trusts a known liar (you)? You can only say to your wife, "What I did was very wrong, and I am trying to fix myself so that it never happens again. I want you to know that I didn't meet or sleep with this woman, and that I never intended or thought about doing so. I can understand why you don't believe me though given what I did do. I want you to know that I am fully committed to you and to the extent it can allay your fears, you have full access to my phone, texts, emails, whereabouts, etc., forever. "

And, finally, if you really don't understand that what you did was cheating, you need much more time in therapy. What you did was manipulative -- you kept something secret from your wife you knew she wouldn't like in order to avoid her reacting in a way that you wouldn't like. Responsible adults don't behave like that. It's called "intimate betrayal," and it's abusive and can be traumatic, especially when the partner is in a vulnerable, dependent position (like being a new mom where she is dependent on the husband for economic and parenting support). Read up on it.

OP here. Reading all the responses is strangely therapeutic and it is interesting to see everyones interpretations along the way. PP, you nailed alot of her thought process about the whole situation except for the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs. You are right, I am not an equal partner. I felt in put in WAY more work which included finger feeding when DD was an infant, staying up ALL nights so that DW could rest, took the morning shift, took turns bathing, took the baby when either DW or DD was sick, coordinated pickup for donated breastmilk, and at least 50/50 for the other baby caring duties while working full time. This doesn't mean I am justified for what I did, but just wanted to clarify the level of effort I was putting in. I can handle all aspects of the baby care and DW even notices that DD favors me way more because of the work I had put in from the beginning.

With that being said, I am putting energy into making amends. It's just not what she is looking for which is why I was seeking some potential ideas. I am currently interviewing for some baby sitters so that it can free up some plans for week day date nights. I'm not looking for cheap forgiveness, but I am on the clock because each day that I don't have any action, she is looking to leave. So I am on her time table, not mine. Of course I know this takes time and I told her I am dedicated to doing that to repair my wrongs, but not if I am gone before my time is up.