Why Asian American kids excel. It’s not ‘Tiger Moms.’

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

.

The same ideals of family, among people from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, China, Vietnam, Japan, Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...? Wow. How culturally homogeneous Asia apparently is.

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.
.

Not in my experience as a white person. In my experience, "Asian" = Chinese, and people from India are "Indians", not "Asians".

+1. Yes sorry I never refer to Indians as Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.
.

Not in my experience as a white person. In my experience, "Asian" = Chinese, and people from India are "Indians", not "Asians".

+1. Yes sorry I never refer to Indians as Asian.

I used to think this way until I saw that TJ is full of Indians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/virginia-student-earns-admission-to-all-eight-ivy-league-schools-and-others/2015/04/10/64e46100-df0d-11e4-a500-1c5bb1d8ff6a_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Yes, indeed. The parents put children first in these culture. There is respect for the elders and a sense of duty towards extended family. Hospitality to others is a big part of the family. The parents will sacrifice their own comforts for their children. Older relatives are looked after and respected in the family.

It is truly an Asian thing.

All Asian cultures have this, and only Asian cultures have this. The things I learn on DCUM!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.
.

Not in my experience as a white person. In my experience, "Asian" = Chinese, and people from India are "Indians", not "Asians".

+1. Yes sorry I never refer to Indians as Asian.

I used to think this way until I saw that TJ is full of Indians

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/virginia-student-earns-admission-to-all-eight-ivy-league-schools-and-others/2015/04/10/64e46100-df0d-11e4-a500-1c5bb1d8ff6a_story.html

OK... but it doesn't help the fact that Indians/Pakistanis are not referred to as Asians by most people. Same reason we don't call Egyptians "Africans" even though they're in that continent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

And you say that because you are Asian? Or you have done research like the one OP linked to? No?

I see a lot of White moms and kids in my neighborhood. The kids are perpetually neglected. They come to my house and eat like they have been starving - why are the parents not feeding them? They are never doing homework and they are disruptive in classrooms - why do their parents not care? They speak in an insolent tone with their parents - because they recognize that the parents are worthless. I know that they are the most messed up group of kids. White kids live with the uncertainty of unstable families and self-obsessed parents. They see their moms trying to be cougar moms and not paying attention to the kids needs. Their homes do not function in a way a home should. They pack crap food for their kids for lunch. Their kids are obsessed with sex at a young age and the parents encourage that behavior. How many Asian-American kids get pregnant at high school? How many White girls get pregnant? There you have it.

Asian kids have at least a moral compass that they can feel shame for bad behavior. White kids are narcissistic and emotionally damaged. We do not have to hear stories of the dysfunction of the white families. We see it on TV.

Want to see a White kid pimp slapping his mom - here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BEsJPGTYI

And this is not a rarity. This is the essence of the relationship between the White kids and their parents.

I know because I am an expert on these things. I have heard stories and watched behind the facade of White families.

[Anonymous]

Different cultures - Asian cultures are "we" cultures; American culture is "I" based culture. Not saying one is better than the other, they are just different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

And you say that because you are Asian? Or you have done research like the one OP linked to? No?

I see a lot of White moms and kids in my neighborhood. The kids are perpetually neglected. They come to my house and eat like they have been starving - why are the parents not feeding them? They are never doing homework and they are disruptive in classrooms - why do their parents not care? They speak in an insolent tone with their parents - because they recognize that the parents are worthless. I know that they are the most messed up group of kids. White kids live with the uncertainty of unstable families and self-obsessed parents. They see their moms trying to be cougar moms and not paying attention to the kids needs. Their homes do not function in a way a home should. They pack crap food for their kids for lunch. Their kids are obsessed with sex at a young age and the parents encourage that behavior. How many Asian-American kids get pregnant at high school? How many White girls get pregnant? There you have it.

Asian kids have at least a moral compass that they can feel shame for bad behavior. White kids are narcissistic and emotionally damaged. We do not have to hear stories of the dysfunction of the white families. We see it on TV.

Want to see a White kid pimp slapping his mom - here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BEsJPGTYI

And this is not a rarity. This is the essence of the relationship between the White kids and their parents.

I know because I am an expert on these things. I have heard stories and watched behind the facade of White families.

Nice job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Different cultures - Asian cultures are "we" cultures; American culture is "I" based culture. Not saying one is better than the other, they are just different.

Almost all cultures in the world are "we" cultures. That's not unique to Asia. The US is probably the "I"-est culture in the world, by a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to college with a lot of Asian kids whose parents were tiger parents. 10 years later, they are successful and normal. They are not unhappy or bad at their jobs or having social problems. They are successful in their careers and doing great.

Those of you who are assuming kids whose parents expect more of them are going to be miserable maybe need to check your assumptions. Do you feel these kids are going to be miserable because that is what you have seen or because you want some sort of consolation prize for not being/having tiger parents?

My neighborhood is primarily Asian. The kids are miserable, they say it all the time. They don't like to spend all their summer in academic camps, no one likes to be forced to play an instrument. Kids are playing outside and the parents come and drag their crying kid to Kumon. I'm sorry, but so many Asian kids are unhappy and it shows. Now, I'm talking about children, not adults. My guess is that once they are "free" of their parents, as adults, they are probably a lot happier.

Believe this if you wish and I accept your sincerity when you say it. Here is the reality:

Yes, some Asian children resent that they cannot indulge in some of the more fun things that non-Asian kids do. But down the line they come to appreciate the focus on studies that their parents imbued in them not always willingly on the part of the kids.
I have three children who went through this very same process and, yes, there were times when they did not want to have to spend their time studying, etc. Today, two are physicians and one has a senior executive position with a major company after completing her MBA at a top five school. Ask them today and they will tell you, without reservation, that a good part of the reason they are where they are is because we emphasized education as being of paramount importance.

Perhaps the real proof that they have come to believe that our approach works is that two of the three who have children are using substantially the same approach in raising their children - and this is not because we have chosen to influence them in any way. In fact, we tell them that we raised them the best way we knew and it is now for them to figure out how they want to raise their children.

This myth about unhappy, maladjusted children is as far-fetched as the one about Asians not having leadership abilities and are merely technicians who follow orders.

Well I'm a part Asian with a very conservative and religious tiger mom. I had a great childhood when I grew up ("free range") in Asia (pre 12 year old) and lived with extended family. When I moved to the US with my mom and new stepfather, I was pretty miserable. They were extremely controlling. I certainly was not allowed to have much fun. I really enjoyed dancing, figure skating, and sports when I was young - which they discouraged for some reason. Outings with friends were very limited.

And yup - my mom did give me shit for getting 97 on tests, asking me why I didn't get 100%. In the end I got tired of it and asked her - "oh yeah? show me your grades in high school" - which shut her up.

Now I'm in my mid 30s and quite successful, with a Master's in a technical field. Since college, I have also been indepedent. I also consider myself well-adjusted, and I've always had a healthy social life. (I had a lot of catching up one I got to college.)

Sure, my parents probably pat themselves on the back and credit themselves for my success. However, I didn't need them to tell me I needed to do well in school - I've always been internally motivated and would have done well no matter what. I will say that - in my culture - you were simply expected to do well in school. I remember growing up in Asia, and maybe I was too young, but we didn't idolize athletes in school. They were not the popular kids. The popular kids were the pretty kids WITH good grades (especially if you were rich). If you were an athlete but got bad grades, then people thought you were lazy or that there was something wrong with you. But I digress.

Why am I saying all this - to point out that some Asian parents are in fact abusive and need to chill the f*** out. If a kid doesn't want to play the piano, leave him/her alone. I resent my parents for ruining the rest of my childhood and I no longer speak with them.

That said, most Asian parents are not abusive and are a positive influence. And I think many non-Asian parents are a weird combination of permissive and helicopterish, which can be a detriment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
It works at some things. It doesn't work at other things. Just like everything else.

I do have a question, though. I am white. There are a lot of kids with Chinese parents at my kids' schools. There are a lot of kids with South Asian parents at my kids' schools. As far as I can tell, they are separate groups. If you (yourself, personally) are a Chinese parent, do you (yourself, personally) think of yourself as belonging to the "Asian parent" group with the South Asian parents? If you (yourself, personally) are a South Asian parent, do you (yourself, personally) think of yourself as a belonging to the "Asian parent" group with the Chinese parents? As far as I can tell, from the outside, the Chinese parents and the South Asian parents are separate groups.

Well, of course Indian and Chinese parents are separate groups, just like Blacks and Whites are separate groups. We are racially, culturally, linguistically and geographically different. However, what is common is that our family and social structures and values are the same. Another aspect is that in US, we are interacting with each other as Asians and we are seen by Americans as being Asian and somewhat similar. That would never have been possible in India or China. In US, we face the same bamboo ceilings, the same struggles, and adhere to the same ideals of family...so the distinctions get blurred.

The parallel I would like to draw between Blacks and Whites in America is that while there are many differences between the two group - there are also certain similarities between the two groups - culture, love of sports, common cuisine, popular culture, affluence, common life experiences, common language etc...so when a Black American and a White American person goes to another part of the world - they are seen as American. The distinctions are blurred.

Uh ... no. East Asians have actually faced significant discrimination in the U.S., including institutionalized racism. Not so with Indians.

You've got your facts wrong. There has been institutionalized racism towards Indians, and also pretty much any group that did not originate from Western Europe. The Chinese Exclusion Act was institutionalized racism, there was also the immigration act of 1924 which also barred Indians. There were similar measures against Southern and Eastern Europeans as well as nearly every single Asian country.

And please don't get me started on the "random" airport checks when flying while brown.

There is no need to start hating on one another to describe whose plight is more meaningful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

And you say that because you are Asian? Or you have done research like the one OP linked to? No?

I see a lot of White moms and kids in my neighborhood. The kids are perpetually neglected. They come to my house and eat like they have been starving - why are the parents not feeding them? They are never doing homework and they are disruptive in classrooms - why do their parents not care? They speak in an insolent tone with their parents - because they recognize that the parents are worthless. I know that they are the most messed up group of kids. White kids live with the uncertainty of unstable families and self-obsessed parents. They see their moms trying to be cougar moms and not paying attention to the kids needs. Their homes do not function in a way a home should. They pack crap food for their kids for lunch. Their kids are obsessed with sex at a young age and the parents encourage that behavior. How many Asian-American kids get pregnant at high school? How many White girls get pregnant? There you have it.

Asian kids have at least a moral compass that they can feel shame for bad behavior. White kids are narcissistic and emotionally damaged. We do not have to hear stories of the dysfunction of the white families. We see it on TV.

Want to see a White kid pimp slapping his mom - here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BEsJPGTYI

And this is not a rarity. This is the essence of the relationship between the White kids and their parents.

I know because I am an expert on these things. I have heard stories and watched behind the facade of White families.

You should check out DCPS if you hate the whites

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

And you say that because you are Asian? Or you have done research like the one OP linked to? No?

I see a lot of White moms and kids in my neighborhood. The kids are perpetually neglected. They come to my house and eat like they have been starving - why are the parents not feeding them? They are never doing homework and they are disruptive in classrooms - why do their parents not care? They speak in an insolent tone with their parents - because they recognize that the parents are worthless. I know that they are the most messed up group of kids. White kids live with the uncertainty of unstable families and self-obsessed parents. They see their moms trying to be cougar moms and not paying attention to the kids needs. Their homes do not function in a way a home should. They pack crap food for their kids for lunch. Their kids are obsessed with sex at a young age and the parents encourage that behavior. How many Asian-American kids get pregnant at high school? How many White girls get pregnant? There you have it.

Asian kids have at least a moral compass that they can feel shame for bad behavior. White kids are narcissistic and emotionally damaged. We do not have to hear stories of the dysfunction of the white families. We see it on TV.

Want to see a White kid pimp slapping his mom - here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BEsJPGTYI

And this is not a rarity. This is the essence of the relationship between the White kids and their parents.

I know because I am an expert on these things. I have heard stories and watched behind the facade of White families.

You should check out DCPS if you hate the whites

I don't think PP was hating on whites. The post just made observations in light of the similar post(s) making general observations of Asians which is often and common in this forum to make a point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We've got mixed Asian/White kids, live in a community with lots of Asians, and I've had a good long look behind the facade.

They are expected to get jobs that pay well and have higher status, and are strongly discouraged from pursuing studies in other fields, even if it's their dream.

If they don't do well, they're not just letting themselves down, they're letting the whole family down, including generations of ancestors. And they will shame their parents, because they'll make them look bad to the community. They'll shame their community to outsiders. Is that enough pressure?

Parents do say commonly things like, "Only an A minus? What happened? Why not an A?" and the kids say those things to each other and to themselves. I've heard it plenty.

Shame. Shame is a big one. If you haven't been raised in a shaming culture, you won't get how powerful it is. You're invalidated and shamed for everything you do and feel, and who you feel you are, if it does not agree with the elders' ideas of who you should be, what you should do, and how you're supposed to feel. And the shame has no boundaries. Your shame as a child is heaped on your parents and family.

Yes, there are a lot of success stories. What you will not be allowed to see, because outward appearances mean everything, are the casualties. I've heard lots of stories and witnessed lots of misery and dysfunction. You want to study BPD, get deep into some Asian communities. It's rampant.

And you say that because you are Asian? Or you have done research like the one OP linked to? No?

I see a lot of White moms and kids in my neighborhood. The kids are perpetually neglected. They come to my house and eat like they have been starving - why are the parents not feeding them? They are never doing homework and they are disruptive in classrooms - why do their parents not care? They speak in an insolent tone with their parents - because they recognize that the parents are worthless. I know that they are the most messed up group of kids. White kids live with the uncertainty of unstable families and self-obsessed parents. They see their moms trying to be cougar moms and not paying attention to the kids needs. Their homes do not function in a way a home should. They pack crap food for their kids for lunch. Their kids are obsessed with sex at a young age and the parents encourage that behavior. How many Asian-American kids get pregnant at high school? How many White girls get pregnant? There you have it.

Asian kids have at least a moral compass that they can feel shame for bad behavior. White kids are narcissistic and emotionally damaged. We do not have to hear stories of the dysfunction of the white families. We see it on TV.

Want to see a White kid pimp slapping his mom - here you go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9BEsJPGTYI

And this is not a rarity. This is the essence of the relationship between the White kids and their parents.

I know because I am an expert on these things. I have heard stories and watched behind the facade of White families.

You should check out DCPS if you hate the whites

What? How did you jump to this conclusion?
How can I hate the poor White kids who are already abused at home by their own parents? It is not there fault that they are in a culture that totally marginalizes them.

Now, as for your suggestion to check out DCPS, I have a two comments.

First of all, there is a racial smugness in your statement that is very telling. Since it is mostly blacks students in not highly rated DCPS, your implication is that it is not a function of socio-economic conditions but rather race. As a spectator to the worsening race relations between blacks and whites, I am constantly amazed that there is not even a pretense to hide the racism.

Secondly, if one lives in MD or VA, one does not send their kids to DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Different cultures - Asian cultures are "we" cultures; American culture is "I" based culture. Not saying one is better than the other, they are just different.

Almost all cultures in the world are "we" cultures. That's not unique to Asia. The US is probably the "I"-est culture in the world, by a lot.

I know the US culture is supposed to be very individualistic, but at the same time, it places a high value on volunteering and helping others with no recompense. US parents volunteer at school, they run scout troops, sports teams, Odyssey of the Mind, music and theatre groups: all without any pay. Not to mention the time they spend running food and clothing drives for the poor. They just freely give hours and hours of their time.

Parents who grew up in other countries frequently tell me that no one does this in their countries and they would prefer not to do it here. They just don't see the point of helping others for no pay.

Why is it that the people from the "I" country are so willing to do so much for the "we"?