4 people dead after gunman opens fire on military recruitment office in TN

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:Sometimes a beard is just a beard, and a Muslim name is just that, a name! The dude had a DUI and was smiling on his mugshot. If you care about Islam that much that you are willing to kill for it, trust me, you wouldn't be caught drinking, much less getting a DUI....

I don't think anyone intends to get caught drinking and getting a DUI.

And there are plenty of stories of pious Muslims who drink, it doesn't signify anything, one way or another.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And please don't act like there's no religious significance at all attached to growing a beard. For some there is and some there isn't. Throwing it out there as a likely sign of religiosity is not an unfair observation. It is seen as a sign of piety and about five seconds in Google will show all sorts of religious discussion on the subject.

My dad was Muslim, and used to have a big beard like that growing up. He didn't have it for religious reasons at all - he just liked having a big beard. Plus, it was the 1970's.

Then one day he shaved it off and it wasn't because his religiosity changed.

I think you're more ignorant than you care to admit. Sometimes a beard is just a beard. Sometimes even Muslims have beards that have nothing to do with their Muslim-ness.

To be fair to the poster who mentioned his beard, she clearly didn't mean the beard to be conclusive evidence. Certainly, if he didn't have a beard, some -- probably me among the first -- would have suggested it was a sign that he wasn't religious (at least not religious as it is practiced by Islamic extremists). We simply don't know either way at this point whether Islam played a role. In the absence of knowledge, we are seeking clues about the cause and motivation of the attack.

Thank you! Was just throwing that out there as an indication. Not sure that warrants being equated with a mass murderer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone complains that Muslim leaders never condemn acts like this, I am currently listening to Bassam Issa of the Islamic Society for Greater Chattanooga say thusly:

"We as Americans, as Tennesseans, as Chattanoogans, as Muslims of Chattanooga, we are totally shocked and in total disbelief. We strongly condemn this heinous act and we reach out to the families of our beloved Marines. They are our sons too and we see them in the streets all the time. And we do feel that this is our own loss and we are very very furious for what happened."

Why are Muslim leaders speaking out? According to Jeff, we don't even know if he's Muslim. We are all "jumping to conclusions"

[Anonymous]

Before the shootings in Chattanooga, 82 of the last 86 victims of post-9/11 domestic terrorism were killed by firearms. Maybe it's time to stop giving everyone more firearms and have a serious discussion about how easy it is for almost anyone in this country to acquire a gun.

http://www.thetrace.org/2015/06/firearms-have-killed-82-of-the-86-victims-of-post-911-domestic-terrorism/

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Sometimes a beard is just a beard, and a Muslim name is just that, a name! The dude had a DUI and was smiling on his mugshot. If you care about Islam that much that you are willing to kill for it, trust me, you wouldn't be caught drinking, much less getting a DUI....

I don't think anyone intends to get caught drinking and getting a DUI.

And there are plenty of stories of pious Muslims who drink, it doesn't signify anything, one way or another.

Where are those stories of "Pious" Muslims who drink?

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone complains that Muslim leaders never condemn acts like this, I am currently listening to Bassam Issa of the Islamic Society for Greater Chattanooga say thusly:

"We as Americans, as Tennesseans, as Chattanoogans, as Muslims of Chattanooga, we are totally shocked and in total disbelief. We strongly condemn this heinous act and we reach out to the families of our beloved Marines. They are our sons too and we see them in the streets all the time. And we do feel that this is our own loss and we are very very furious for what happened."

Why are Muslim leaders speaking out? According to Jeff, we don't even know if he's Muslim. We are all "jumping to conclusions"

I think we can safely assume that he was Muslim. The question is how serious of a Muslim and whether or not Islam played a role in the attack.

I lived in Kuwait for a year. That was a long time ago and I certainly didn't become an expert on Kuwait at the time. But, his name strikes me as strange for a Kuwaiti. There are also questions about his citizenship with the suggestion that he might not be a Kuwait citizen. It probably won't end up being important, but I suspect we will find out that his background is fairly complex.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Before anyone complains that Muslim leaders never condemn acts like this, I am currently listening to Bassam Issa of the Islamic Society for Greater Chattanooga say thusly:

"We as Americans, as Tennesseans, as Chattanoogans, as Muslims of Chattanooga, we are totally shocked and in total disbelief. We strongly condemn this heinous act and we reach out to the families of our beloved Marines. They are our sons too and we see them in the streets all the time. And we do feel that this is our own loss and we are very very furious for what happened."

Why are Muslim leaders speaking out? According to Jeff, we don't even know if he's Muslim. We are all "jumping to conclusions"

I think we can safely assume that he was Muslim. The question is how serious of a Muslim and whether or not Islam played a role in the attack.

I lived in Kuwait for a year. That was a long time ago and I certainly didn't become an expert on Kuwait at the time. But, his name strikes me as strange for a Kuwaiti. There are also questions about his citizenship with the suggestion that he might not be a Kuwait citizen. It probably won't end up being important, but I suspect we will find out that his background is fairly complex.

+1. I think I heard or read he might actually be a Jordianian citizen. This was the first thing that came to mind: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_expulsion_from_Kuwait

[Anonymous]

This is very close to my hometown, where I happen to be visiting right now. According to his high school classmates, the family was very religious:

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2015/jul/16/what-we-know-about-chattanooga-shooter/315002/

Also check out his senior quote.

[Anonymous]

I'm from Chattanooga. This is so very eerie and tremendously sad. I went to preschool at the community college that was next to the one site, and I go back there from time to time. There is certainly not a robust Muslim presence that I can see. But in any case, this won't help people come together. It will be polarizing and encite racial bigotry in a part of the country where there's already a lot of that. That will happen regardless of whether his Muslim or not...it'll happen because of his name and his appearance and because it's the South. I'm interested to see the climate when I visit at the end of the month.

[Anonymous]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2015/07/16/read-chattanooga-shooter-s-blog.html

This article claims to have found a two post only religious blog of his.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And please don't act like there's no religious significance at all attached to growing a beard. For some there is and some there isn't. Throwing it out there as a likely sign of religiosity is not an unfair observation. It is seen as a sign of piety and about five seconds in Google will show all sorts of religious discussion on the subject.

My dad was Muslim, and used to have a big beard like that growing up. He didn't have it for religious reasons at all - he just liked having a big beard. Plus, it was the 1970's.

Then one day he shaved it off and it wasn't because his religiosity changed.

I think you're more ignorant than you care to admit. Sometimes a beard is just a beard. Sometimes even Muslims have beards that have nothing to do with their Muslim-ness.

To be fair to the poster who mentioned his beard, she clearly didn't mean the beard to be conclusive evidence. Certainly, if he didn't have a beard, some -- probably me among the first -- would have suggested it was a sign that he wasn't religious (at least not religious as it is practiced by Islamic extremists). We simply don't know either way at this point whether Islam played a role. In the absence of knowledge, we are seeking clues about the cause and motivation of the attack.

Thank you! Was just throwing that out there as an indication. Not sure that warrants being equated with a mass murderer.

I disagree with Jeff and think you're full of crap, PP, "I'd say the style of beard he is sporting in his mugshot and other photos is an indication he is probably practicing and religious, regardless of the DUI..."

You thought out the words that you were going to say and typed them. His style of beard is indicative of nothing including his religiosity. In his graduation picture he's clean shaven. The Fort Hood shooter, a Muslim was clean shaven. Wade Michael Page, a white supremacist was bearded at the time of his shooting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And please don't act like there's no religious significance at all attached to growing a beard. For some there is and some there isn't. Throwing it out there as a likely sign of religiosity is not an unfair observation. It is seen as a sign of piety and about five seconds in Google will show all sorts of religious discussion on the subject.

My dad was Muslim, and used to have a big beard like that growing up. He didn't have it for religious reasons at all - he just liked having a big beard. Plus, it was the 1970's.

Then one day he shaved it off and it wasn't because his religiosity changed.

I think you're more ignorant than you care to admit. Sometimes a beard is just a beard. Sometimes even Muslims have beards that have nothing to do with their Muslim-ness.

To be fair to the poster who mentioned his beard, she clearly didn't mean the beard to be conclusive evidence. Certainly, if he didn't have a beard, some -- probably me among the first -- would have suggested it was a sign that he wasn't religious (at least not religious as it is practiced by Islamic extremists). We simply don't know either way at this point whether Islam played a role. In the absence of knowledge, we are seeking clues about the cause and motivation of the attack.

Thank you! Was just throwing that out there as an indication. Not sure that warrants being equated with a mass murderer.

I disagree with Jeff and think you're full of crap, PP, "I'd say the style of beard he is sporting in his mugshot and other photos is an indication he is probably practicing and religious, regardless of the DUI..."

You thought out the words that you were going to say and typed them. His style of beard is indicative of nothing including his religiosity. In his graduation picture he's clean shaven. The Fort Hood shooter, a Muslim was clean shaven. Wade Michael Page, a white supremacist was bearded at the time of his shooting.

I literally said it's an indication. I did not say all bearded men are Islamic terrorists, beards are the primary or only sign of religious fundamentalism or anything else. Because nuance is obviously lost on you and because you probably just aren't familiar with the religious significance some ascribe to beards, I will give you some background sources:

http://islamqa.info/en/1189

http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/sotb.html

http://www.justaskislam.com/190/shaving-the-beard-is-it-permissible/

http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/hh/trimming-beard.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So a guy shoots up the church holding the confederate flag, and it's time to condemn the flag and anything it stands for. Guy shoots up someplace holding the Koran and it time to condemn just that guy, not the symbol he was holding and not what that stands for, seems reasonable.

Where did you see that he is holding a Koran?

If he was a practicing Muslim, he was holding one. Why do you defend him? Why do you remove my post when I question Islam being the "peaceful religion"?

If the Confederate is condemned as a symbol of hate, how does the Koran get a pass in the exact same situation?

I've heard the confederacy referred to as a religion before, but only in jest. You take the cake. By your logic we should be burning Bibles.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And please don't act like there's no religious significance at all attached to growing a beard. For some there is and some there isn't. Throwing it out there as a likely sign of religiosity is not an unfair observation. It is seen as a sign of piety and about five seconds in Google will show all sorts of religious discussion on the subject.

My dad was Muslim, and used to have a big beard like that growing up. He didn't have it for religious reasons at all - he just liked having a big beard. Plus, it was the 1970's.

Then one day he shaved it off and it wasn't because his religiosity changed.

I think you're more ignorant than you care to admit. Sometimes a beard is just a beard. Sometimes even Muslims have beards that have nothing to do with their Muslim-ness.

To be fair to the poster who mentioned his beard, she clearly didn't mean the beard to be conclusive evidence. Certainly, if he didn't have a beard, some -- probably me among the first -- would have suggested it was a sign that he wasn't religious (at least not religious as it is practiced by Islamic extremists). We simply don't know either way at this point whether Islam played a role. In the absence of knowledge, we are seeking clues about the cause and motivation of the attack.

Thank you! Was just throwing that out there as an indication. Not sure that warrants being equated with a mass murderer.

I disagree with Jeff and think you're full of crap, PP, "I'd say the style of beard he is sporting in his mugshot and other photos is an indication he is probably practicing and religious, regardless of the DUI..."

You thought out the words that you were going to say and typed them. His style of beard is indicative of nothing including his religiosity. In his graduation picture he's clean shaven. The Fort Hood shooter, a Muslim was clean shaven. Wade Michael Page, a white supremacist was bearded at the time of his shooting.

I literally said it's an indication. I did not say all bearded men are Islamic terrorists, beards are the primary or only sign of religious fundamentalism or anything else. Because nuance is obviously lost on you and because you probably just aren't familiar with the religious significance some ascribe to beards, I will give you some background sources:

http://islamqa.info/en/1189

http://www.inter-islam.org/Actions/sotb.html

http://www.justaskislam.com/190/shaving-the-beard-is-it-permissible/

http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/hh/trimming-beard.html

It is ironic that you are focusing on his beard to prove that he is a "fundamentalist" and citing islamic Q&As about the importance of the beard. I wonder what those same sources would say about drinking, and what that would be an "indication" of

[Anonymous]

And just to add, maybe this BBC article written on the many meanings of the beard in the Middle East will prove interesting as well since its a little less heavy on technical religious language than the above http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20877090

And an interesting New Yorker article on a controversy stemming from the religious significance (or not) of the beard: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/a-saudi-woman-is-threatened-after-tweeting-about-beards