Foreign Universities...

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

I find that hard to believe. How can these schools assemble a diverse environment without some system for leveling the playing field?

They level the playing field by being dirt cheap compared to American ones, so that anyone who wants to learn and contribute can do so. Many top universities are free or close to free.

But are they diverse? The benefits of diversity are undeniable http://ideas.time.com/2013/12/03/women-on-corporate-boards-do-they-make-men-that-uncomfortable/

I spent time at two of the top European universities and they were lily white.

Big, fat BS. Most European universities are much more diverse socioeconomically and culturally than American ones. The "time" you spent there was probably as an arrogant tourist and, surprise surprise, you found what you deserve.

you skipped racial diversity - wonder why? Where are the people of color? The Roma for example?

Roma have terrible grades and can't pass entrance exams. A vast majority leaves school well before college is even a consideration.

Sounds like something someone in the Jim Crow era might say.

Please stop projecting your American racist past on others. Roma were never banned from going to school, quite the opposite. They never had separate facilities, were not orders ro ride at the bsck of buses etc, etc. They, as a group, just don't care for education as that doesn't relate to their lifestyle. There exist individual Roma who are very successful, so the system doesnt in any way stop them from doing it, but that is uncommon.

[Anonymous]

I went to college and grad school in France, and it was very diverse. In terms of tuition, it was close to nothing.
Actually, we looked down on private colleges/universities which charged lots of $.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

I find that hard to believe. How can these schools assemble a diverse environment without some system for leveling the playing field?

They are not trying to level the field and they don't care about diversity. They are cheap and everyone can attend for as long as they are a good student. Thats about it.

And this is one important factor why social mobility in most European countries is far superior than here in the US, despite all the talk about diversity and such. Show me the deeds, not the blah blah.

"Back in its Horatio Alger days, America was more fluid than Europe. Now it is not. Using one-generation measures of social mobility—how much a father’s relative income influences that of his adult son—America does half as well as Nordic countries, and about the same as Britain and Italy, Europe’s least-mobile places."
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571417-how-prevent-virtuous-meritocracy-entrenching-itself-top-repairing-rungs

"But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

I find that hard to believe. How can these schools assemble a diverse environment without some system for leveling the playing field?

They are not trying to level the field and they don't care about diversity. They are cheap and everyone can attend for as long as they are a good student. Thats about it.

And this is one important factor why social mobility in most European countries is far superior than here in the US, despite all the talk about diversity and such. Show me the deeds, not the blah blah.

"Back in its Horatio Alger days, America was more fluid than Europe. Now it is not. Using one-generation measures of social mobility—how much a father’s relative income influences that of his adult son—America does half as well as Nordic countries, and about the same as Britain and Italy, Europe’s least-mobile places."
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571417-how-prevent-virtuous-meritocracy-entrenching-itself-top-repairing-rungs

"But many researchers have reached a conclusion that turns conventional wisdom on its head: Americans enjoy less economic mobility than their peers in Canada and much of Western Europe."
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/harder-for-americans-to-rise-from-lower-rungs.html?pagewanted=all

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Please stop projecting your American racist past on others. Roma were never banned from going to school, quite the opposite. They never had separate facilities, were not orders ro ride at the bsck of buses etc, etc. They, as a group, just don't care for education as that doesn't relate to their lifestyle. There exist individual Roma who are very successful, so the system doesnt in any way stop them from doing it, but that is uncommon.

Isabel Fonseca (Martin Amis' wife or maybe ex-wife by now) begs to disagree with you. Read her book, Bury Me Standing: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=isabel%20fonseca&sprefix=isabel+f%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aisabel%20fonseca&ajr=2. I'm sort of stunned by your claim that there are no institutional barriers to the Roma, it's only that they "just don't care for education."

That said, I agree with the people saying that upward mobility has become more difficult in the US.

[Anonymous]

I'd be careful to tout Europe as a big happy family of diversity….most European countries are extremely homogenous and are just beginning (in the past 20 years or so) to have a statistically relevant level of immigration. It's not easy for many of these countries and please be careful to suggest that Europe has figured out diversity better than anywhere else. Europe may be progressive in many ways and may like to "talk the talk", but my experience with the realities on the ground with regard to acceptance of diversity are FAR different. Oh and before you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about I am married to a European, visit Europe regularly (several times per year) and have family/friends in several different European countries…although I have not studied there I have family members (both American and European) who have studied in a few different countries and we have actually had this conversation (due to a very diverse family with kids wanting to study in many places).

Also, there was absolutely no need to get so testy with your answer to the PP. Frankly, you sound like arrogant yourself when you go around questioning people on their experiences simply because they didn't say what you wanted to hear…

I agree with this. In Europe, universities are cheap and issues with poverty/income inequality are not as drastic as the United states due to a larger social safety net. However, many European countries are very homogenous culturally. Obviously, it varies from country to country--but as a whole this is certainly true. The other issue is that even though the universities are relatively inexpensive, class structures are codified often by the heavy tracking that happens starting in high school...i.e. whether or not you are going to a school that will prepare you for university or trade school. I believe I read somewhere that only 10-20% of working glass Germans go to gymnasium then followed by university. Although much of Europe is progressive, an aggressive leveling of the playing field through education is less of a priority--the "leveling of the playing field" is done more via providing a higher quality of life through more social services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please stop projecting your American racist past on others. Roma were never banned from going to school, quite the opposite. They never had separate facilities, were not orders ro ride at the bsck of buses etc, etc. They, as a group, just don't care for education as that doesn't relate to their lifestyle. There exist individual Roma who are very successful, so the system doesnt in any way stop them from doing it, but that is uncommon.

Isabel Fonseca (Martin Amis' wife or maybe ex-wife by now) begs to disagree with you. Read her book, Bury Me Standing: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=isabel%20fonseca&sprefix=isabel+f%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aisabel%20fonseca&ajr=2. I'm sort of stunned by your claim that there are no institutional barriers to the Roma, it's only that they "just don't care for education."

That said, I agree with the people saying that upward mobility has become more difficult in the US.

This book proves nothing - there have always Europeans trying to import the latest American fad into their countries. The American experience just doesn't apply - at all.

[Anonymous]

Right, but it's pretty obvious from all the academic research that performance in school tracks very closely to socioeconomic status, and kids from lower socioeconomic classes have to work harder to catch up. In the US, we recognize it. In other countries, it is purely exams and academic performance. Which is more of a meritocracy? I don't know. But coming from a privileged background myself, married to someone who grew up in a working class family, I realize just how easy it is to take these cumulative advantages for granted.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please stop projecting your American racist past on others. Roma were never banned from going to school, quite the opposite. They never had separate facilities, were not orders ro ride at the bsck of buses etc, etc. They, as a group, just don't care for education as that doesn't relate to their lifestyle. There exist individual Roma who are very successful, so the system doesnt in any way stop them from doing it, but that is uncommon.

Isabel Fonseca (Martin Amis' wife or maybe ex-wife by now) begs to disagree with you. Read her book, Bury Me Standing: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=isabel%20fonseca&sprefix=isabel+f%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aisabel%20fonseca&ajr=2. I'm sort of stunned by your claim that there are no institutional barriers to the Roma, it's only that they "just don't care for education."

That said, I agree with the people saying that upward mobility has become more difficult in the US.

This book proves nothing - there have always Europeans trying to import the latest American fad into their countries. The American experience just doesn't apply - at all.

Looks like you haven't read Fonseca's book. And what on earth could you mean by "Europeans trying to import the latest American fad," as if removing institutional barriers to the Roma is a bad thing. Besides, you're off on some tangent about American history =/= European history when everyone else is talking about whether there is diversity in today's European universities. I feel I will have to ignore everything else you write in the future as being totally off point and useless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Right, but it's pretty obvious from all the academic research that performance in school tracks very closely to socioeconomic status, and kids from lower socioeconomic classes have to work harder to catch up. In the US, we recognize it. In other countries, it is purely exams and academic performance. Which is more of a meritocracy? I don't know. But coming from a privileged background myself, married to someone who grew up in a working class family, I realize just how easy it is to take these cumulative advantages for granted.

this research comes from the USA. working class families in europe are in a different position. in my country of origin, for example, there is no such thing as "bad school" - everyone can go to elementary school they wish (wherever it is) and they are all state funded. this is not the end of it all, of course, but it is one of the great equalizers. my parents were highly educated upper middle class and i we lived in the same building with policemen and truck drivers (as well as doctors and lawyers) and i shared school desk with a roma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please stop projecting your American racist past on others. Roma were never banned from going to school, quite the opposite. They never had separate facilities, were not orders ro ride at the bsck of buses etc, etc. They, as a group, just don't care for education as that doesn't relate to their lifestyle. There exist individual Roma who are very successful, so the system doesnt in any way stop them from doing it, but that is uncommon.

Isabel Fonseca (Martin Amis' wife or maybe ex-wife by now) begs to disagree with you. Read her book, Bury Me Standing: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=isabel%20fonseca&sprefix=isabel+f%2Caps&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Aisabel%20fonseca&ajr=2. I'm sort of stunned by your claim that there are no institutional barriers to the Roma, it's only that they "just don't care for education."

That said, I agree with the people saying that upward mobility has become more difficult in the US.

This book proves nothing - there have always Europeans trying to import the latest American fad into their countries. The American experience just doesn't apply - at all.

Looks like you haven't read Fonseca's book. And what on earth could you mean by "Europeans trying to import the latest American fad," as if removing institutional barriers to the Roma is a bad thing. Besides, you're off on some tangent about American history =/= European history when everyone else is talking about whether there is diversity in today's European universities. I feel I will have to ignore everything else you write in the future as being totally off point and useless.

no, i haven't read some book that you recommended - so what? there are dozens of books i read and you didn't, in addition to me having spent 25 years living in europe.

[Anonymous]

this research comes from the USA. working class families in europe are in a different position. in my country of origin, for example, there is no such thing as "bad school" - everyone can go to elementary school they wish (wherever it is) and they are all state funded. this is not the end of it all, of course, but it is one of the great equalizers. my parents were highly educated upper middle class and i we lived in the same building with policemen and truck drivers (as well as doctors and lawyers) and i shared school desk with a roma.

It is not just the USA. It is also true Asia (particularly China), and much of central and south America. There is also a lack of working class families in universities in the UK, France, Japan, and several other EU countries. Also, much of the filtering happens in many countries at the high school level, as I said, whether or not you can enter lycee or gymnasium.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/were-still-skipping-working-class/169329.article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, but it's pretty obvious from all the academic research that performance in school tracks very closely to socioeconomic status, and kids from lower socioeconomic classes have to work harder to catch up. In the US, we recognize it. In other countries, it is purely exams and academic performance. Which is more of a meritocracy? I don't know. But coming from a privileged background myself, married to someone who grew up in a working class family, I realize just how easy it is to take these cumulative advantages for granted.

this research comes from the USA. working class families in europe are in a different position. in my country of origin, for example, there is no such thing as "bad school" - everyone can go to elementary school they wish (wherever it is) and they are all state funded. this is not the end of it all, of course, but it is one of the great equalizers. my parents were highly educated upper middle class and i we lived in the same building with policemen and truck drivers (as well as doctors and lawyers) and i shared school desk with a roma.

I don't envy your education. You should know that a single anecdote (about a Roma sharing your desk one year) doesn't make a dataset.

Sorry, but a system that tracks kids from middle or high school into college, or not, is not going to be very equal. We all know that the arab immigrants in the Paris banlieues cannot compete on the national tests against the upper middle class kids in the best arrondissements. What do you think the riots were about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, but it's pretty obvious from all the academic research that performance in school tracks very closely to socioeconomic status, and kids from lower socioeconomic classes have to work harder to catch up. In the US, we recognize it. In other countries, it is purely exams and academic performance. Which is more of a meritocracy? I don't know. But coming from a privileged background myself, married to someone who grew up in a working class family, I realize just how easy it is to take these cumulative advantages for granted.

this research comes from the USA. working class families in europe are in a different position. in my country of origin, for example, there is no such thing as "bad school" - everyone can go to elementary school they wish (wherever it is) and they are all state funded. this is not the end of it all, of course, but it is one of the great equalizers. my parents were highly educated upper middle class and i we lived in the same building with policemen and truck drivers (as well as doctors and lawyers) and i shared school desk with a roma.

Can we ask? What lucky country claims you as a native? Is everyone in your country as nasty, bitter, and deceptive as you?

New poster here. First time glancing at this thread, but I can comment that my relatives in Stockholm do live in a building with people of different economic backgrounds, and most things are state funded including health care. However, recently they have noted more racial problems than in recent years. That, of course, could be to economics but I'm no authority.

[Anonymous]

Can all of you stop with the "I lived in Europe, I'm European, etc"? Just state the country and move in. It's really annoying--we all know that Sweden does not equal Greece, Germany isn't Albania, etc.

State the country for some relevance.