Foreign Universities...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really think you cannot generalize re European universities. There are vast differences across countries, and within countries.

I studied abroad in several European countries. I also have friends who studied in many other countries.

In general, European universities tend to be larger in more urban settings. However, this is not the case across the board. There are smaller campuses, even liberal arts colleges. There is great variation depending on the field of study. In continental Europe, law is a broad, general degree and universities are not "selective". Completely different from the US experience. Other more specialized fields may be much more personal, even from the beginning of studies.

Not true that there's no student life / fraternities (if that's what you're looking for). All the Dutch universities have big fraternities (they are co-ed) and there are a big part of student social life. Holland has created English-speaking residential liberal arts colleges (called "university colleges") and are actively recruiting students from out of country. Check out: http://www.ucr.nl/Pages/default.aspx (just one of several).

I think if your child is interested in becoming a doctor or otherwise in the medical field, then European education may make a great deal of sense. You can always return to the US for residency/fellowship.

In general, if your child is likely to go to grad school, I think an undergrad overseas followed by US grad school goes a very long way (maybe all the way) in erasing the disadvantage in not having attended a US college when looking for a job.

If your child is only interested in an undergrad degree, wants to stay in US, then US college might make more sense even if it is much more expensive.

Most state schools (best unis) in most of Europe are very selective by American standards. I was surprised what was considered selective in the US. This has changed in the past 10 yrs but mostly driven by private universities.

[Anonymous]

I spent three months in Germany as an undergraduate. I attended a SLAC and studied biochemistry, but I was really fascinated by chemistry, particularly organic so I took a bunch of advanced electives in organic chemistry. When I was in Germany, people were surprised by my educational background and the degree to which I was conversant in both organic chemistry and biochemistry and my opportunity to take advanced electives in areas that interested me. In Germany, the courses are prescribed through your major, so there isn't opportunity to take extra classes in areas that you're interested in, really. This seems to be the case at lot of other European universities, from friends who have done their degree abroad. By far, the average education of a German undergraduate is far more rigorous than the average education of an American undergraduate in chemistry or biochemistry--especially compared to the requirements at large state universities. However, the opportunity to explore new areas just is not there to the same extent, and it is less flexible and more one size fits all. The five person seminar course I took in advanced physical organic chemistry my junior year at my SLAC that was largely focused on open ended exploratory projects with molecular modeling software and discussion of the literature wasn't really something that would happen in Germany. I think the main advantage to the American educational system is that there is more of an opportunity to explore without specializing, and there is more of an opportunity for late bloomers to bloom, and there is a greater degree of variety and choice in terms of what you get out of your higher education. The disadvantage is that it can lack rigor and it is insanely expensive.

I would not, however, be concerned about being unable to find employment in the united states. The world is becoming increasingly globalized, and I know plenty of people who immigrated and are now in nice professional careers in the US. If anything, the notion of looking for employment in other countries I think should be more encouraged in the US than it is, because it makes your world much much larger.

[Anonymous]

we are definitely considering UK schools for our young kids who are dual citizens uk/us. I went to Edinburgh for a jya and enjoyed it, not quite as rigorous as my slac, but good. It is cheaper. It is 3 years v. 4 years, can blow off a lot of extraneous distribution requirements. However my sil tried to go oxbridge from american schools but didn't quite make it on the first go round, did later for grad school. One must know and prepare in advance for the difference in admission requirements.

US schools should experience the bracing effects of competition. They have grown far too fat and slack. I wouldn't like my children to go to my slac, not impressed with their monkey see/ monkey do path in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I spent three months in Germany as an undergraduate. I attended a SLAC and studied biochemistry, but I was really fascinated by chemistry, particularly organic so I took a bunch of advanced electives in organic chemistry. When I was in Germany, people were surprised by my educational background and the degree to which I was conversant in both organic chemistry and biochemistry and my opportunity to take advanced electives in areas that interested me. In Germany, the courses are prescribed through your major, so there isn't opportunity to take extra classes in areas that you're interested in, really. This seems to be the case at lot of other European universities, from friends who have done their degree abroad. By far, the average education of a German undergraduate is far more rigorous than the average education of an American undergraduate in chemistry or biochemistry--especially compared to the requirements at large state universities. However, the opportunity to explore new areas just is not there to the same extent, and it is less flexible and more one size fits all. The five person seminar course I took in advanced physical organic chemistry my junior year at my SLAC that was largely focused on open ended exploratory projects with molecular modeling software and discussion of the literature wasn't really something that would happen in Germany. I think the main advantage to the American educational system is that there is more of an opportunity to explore without specializing, and there is more of an opportunity for late bloomers to bloom, and there is a greater degree of variety and choice in terms of what you get out of your higher education. The disadvantage is that it can lack rigor and it is insanely expensive.

I would not, however, be concerned about being unable to find employment in the united states. The world is becoming increasingly globalized, and I know plenty of people who immigrated and are now in nice professional careers in the US. If anything, the notion of looking for employment in other countries I think should be more encouraged in the US than it is, because it makes your world much much larger.

+1

[Anonymous]

My daughter started at Oxford this year as an undergrad and is enjoying it hugely except for some minor homesickness which all her US college friends also have.
The admissions process is different and for a certain kind of student, this is a plus.
Some of the differences are-
For example: if your child is smart, hardworking, high SAT scores, NOT a minority, nor a legacy, nor getting extra time and adder all, not a recruitable athlete-- then she has a better chance at Oxford.
theres no cheating, no gut courses.
The admissions essay is about their interest in a specific subject- not some clever strange topic thought up by an admissions person. Ditto the interview- you discuss content with an actual professor who is agreeing to teach you- not an alum who asks you about your extracurriculars.
They do not discriminate against introverts.
Your child will have to choose a subject, but that isnt as difficult as it first appears. The ivies that have distribution requirements have a lot of guts. I didnt like to think about paying thousands of dollars for her to take the chemistry of wine, to fulfill a science requirement, when she already knows she doesnt want to do any more science. She is not going to turn into a mathematician and I consider that she has done enough calculus in high school. So it isnt that hard to narrow it down to a few subjects- and there are many dual and triple subjects to choose from.
It helped that she took a lot of AP tests- they like to see alot of AP scores I think because they have so many international applicants that standardized tests make it easier to compare. They dont ask for a grade transcript. Each major has different admission requirements- subject SATs are helpful. It helps to go to England for the interview if you can do it.
Oxford is beginning to recruit in DC- they had an evening at WIS last year and will be at NCS this year.
They have only a few visiting days each summer at the end of June. The website is easy to navigate and has many many hours of information in it-
My daughter is studying hard, but enjoying it.

[Anonymous]

The overall acceptance rate at Oxford is something like 20%. The acceptance rate for overseas schools is lower but at maybe 10% (?) it's still better than the top US universities. So while I'm not a big fan of the slaps at affirmative action and ADD kids in the previous post, Oxford is definitely an option for a completely unhooked kid who wants to attend a world class university.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My daughter started at Oxford this year as an undergrad and is enjoying it hugely except for some minor homesickness which all her US college friends also have.
The admissions process is different and for a certain kind of student, this is a plus.
Some of the differences are-
For example: if your child is smart, hardworking, high SAT scores, NOT a minority, nor a legacy, nor getting extra time and adder all, not a recruitable athlete-- then she has a better chance at Oxford.
theres no cheating, no gut courses.
The admissions essay is about their interest in a specific subject- not some clever strange topic thought up by an admissions person. Ditto the interview- you discuss content with an actual professor who is agreeing to teach you- not an alum who asks you about your extracurriculars.
They do not discriminate against introverts.
Your child will have to choose a subject, but that isnt as difficult as it first appears. The ivies that have distribution requirements have a lot of guts. I didnt like to think about paying thousands of dollars for her to take the chemistry of wine, to fulfill a science requirement, when she already knows she doesnt want to do any more science. She is not going to turn into a mathematician and I consider that she has done enough calculus in high school. So it isnt that hard to narrow it down to a few subjects- and there are many dual and triple subjects to choose from.
It helped that she took a lot of AP tests- they like to see alot of AP scores I think because they have so many international applicants that standardized tests make it easier to compare. They dont ask for a grade transcript. Each major has different admission requirements- subject SATs are helpful. It helps to go to England for the interview if you can do it.
Oxford is beginning to recruit in DC- they had an evening at WIS last year and will be at NCS this year.
They have only a few visiting days each summer at the end of June. The website is easy to navigate and has many many hours of information in it-
My daughter is studying hard, but enjoying it.

great addition to this thread.

would it be possible to tell us what subject she's reading at oxford? For instance PPE acceptance rates are much different than say other subjects. also did she have to take any 'pre-tests' that measure aptitude for a specific major?

[Anonymous]

additonial question to the PP with daughter at Oxford...

how did she select the college to apply to or did she do an open-application?

also I know british nationals can only apply to one of ox or Cambridge...does that restriction also apply to international applicants?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I spent three months in Germany as an undergraduate. I attended a SLAC and studied biochemistry, but I was really fascinated by chemistry, particularly organic so I took a bunch of advanced electives in organic chemistry. When I was in Germany, people were surprised by my educational background and the degree to which I was conversant in both organic chemistry and biochemistry and my opportunity to take advanced electives in areas that interested me. In Germany, the courses are prescribed through your major, so there isn't opportunity to take extra classes in areas that you're interested in, really. This seems to be the case at lot of other European universities, from friends who have done their degree abroad. By far, the average education of a German undergraduate is far more rigorous than the average education of an American undergraduate in chemistry or biochemistry--especially compared to the requirements at large state universities. However, the opportunity to explore new areas just is not there to the same extent, and it is less flexible and more one size fits all. The five person seminar course I took in advanced physical organic chemistry my junior year at my SLAC that was largely focused on open ended exploratory projects with molecular modeling software and discussion of the literature wasn't really something that would happen in Germany. I think the main advantage to the American educational system is that there is more of an opportunity to explore without specializing, and there is more of an opportunity for late bloomers to bloom, and there is a greater degree of variety and choice in terms of what you get out of your higher education. The disadvantage is that it can lack rigor and it is insanely expensive.

I would not, however, be concerned about being unable to find employment in the united states. The world is becoming increasingly globalized, and I know plenty of people who immigrated and are now in nice professional careers in the US. If anything, the notion of looking for employment in other countries I think should be more encouraged in the US than it is, because it makes your world much much larger.

+1

I have studied undergrad in Austria and Germany (total of 2 years); and grad in Holland. I'm a PP from above - I would reiterate that you can't generalize all European countries. The systems are different. There are even major differences between German universities as Germany is actually a federal state and education is by state (Bundesland). Bavaria and Rhineland-Westphalia are different; different courses of study; different standards.

I would tend to agree with the opinion re German education, particularly as compared to Holland, for example. But there are exceptions - this is the huge barrier (apart from language) for a prospective US student. To add to it, there have been recent major changes to the German (and other systems) so parents from those systems may well be out of date.

[Anonymous]

Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I assume so for Europe since they are much more progressive. Probably not in Asia. Not sure about Canada.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

I find that hard to believe. How can these schools assemble a diverse environment without some system for leveling the playing field?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I studied at both EU and US university (for undergrad). The experience is more pleasant in the US but you learn more in Europe. It is true, everything you learn is from one field, but that's the whole point. In their case, college does in fact prepare people for specific professions. It's not exploratory and it's not supposed to be fun. There are no fraternities, no drinking parties all the time, many colleges do not have proper campuses (most are urban) and many more students study from their parents' homes.

In other words, universities are actual places of study and learning, instead of sports teams with some classes nearby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is diversity a "plus factor" when applying to a foreign university? Which foreign universities have affirmative action programs?

I doubt it. All schools I am familiar with look and grades and tests only.

I find that hard to believe. How can these schools assemble a diverse environment without some system for leveling the playing field?

They level the playing field by being dirt cheap compared to American ones, so that anyone who wants to learn and contribute can do so. Many top universities are free or close to free.