Is it possible to learn to enjoy sex with someone after years of bad sex?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The problem I have with this argument is that you are describing mating behaviors. Yes, biologically women are drawn to the alphas, but after 15 years of sex, marriage and sharing a house, kids in the next room, those hormones and that rush of chemicals from infatuation are long gone. When you can't rely on that romantic love/mating behavior whatever you want to call it, you have to step it up in other ways. That's when the whole, love is patient, kind, blah blah blah comes in. You have to work on building an intimate relationship to keep the sex interesting.

My hypothesis is that those mating behaviors never go away. The alpha behavior simply diminishes and, along with it, the sexual passion. Guys are told to emphasize the sorts of good behavior that supports a long term marriage, enables them to provide a house, makes them good Dads, and reduces conflicts with their wives. And those aren't bad things; but they are not sufficient. A guy ends up in his mid-40s feeling like a chump -- he did everything he was asked to do and, in return, he gets a wife who dreads bed time for fear he might try to touch her. I think we also have to tell guys that it's necessary for them to keep doing the things that make them sexually attractive - go work out; learn how to dress well and spend some money on some sharp clothes; maintain your own hobbies and guy friends even if it ruffles feathers from time to time; don't be afraid to be decisive. Initiate sex in a way that makes it clear you still find your wife so damn hot you can barely control yourself. (E.g. skip the tentative pawing hoping she'll "take the hint"; or asking "do you want to do it").

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

OP's problem is: 1) she need to take more responsibility for having orgasms with her husband, to include masterbating her self, seeking a sex therapist, etc.; 2) it sounds like they are going through a really stressful time right now, and that will always impact a couple's sex life.

right -- my husband could care less if I am interested in sex. He's fine doing it for himself. He would like me to initiate more, but again, that's just for his ego.

Well, don't underestimate that. A guy's ego is, in large part, wrapped up in his sexuality. And keeping the guy's ego intact will go a long way toward keeping the marriage intact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I pined for the (cute) guy on the chess team, if there was one, and never on the football players yuck. I always preferred the quieter, studious, more sensitive guys. Of course you don't want to deal with someone who is completely passive all the time, but this alpha-beta thing is just crap.

Most of the alpha-beta posters are speaking in generalities. Most of them even acknowledge you need some beta to really make it in a relationship.

I posit it's possible to be alpha in different fields/mental stuff, or someone on the chess team appears to be more alpha simply by following regular social norms (and not being creepy awkward).

Ok I guess the problem that I am having with the "alpha-beta" posters is that at this moment I have no idea what the heck alpha-beta means. So being socially normal is alpha behavior? Being in good physical shape is alpha? Making a lot of money is alpha? This is all "manly" stuff? It just seems like a totally arbitrary word salad type scheme that is a little sexist and offensive. I mean, to me, these sound like just regular positive attributes that would be appreciated in a man or a woman. If you marry someone and they are sensitive, help around the house, parent the kids, make a lot of money, look good, and act socially normal, that is actually called a PERFECT PERSON. Of COURSE you would like having sex with this person because he is a fantasy man. To say to a man who doesn't have every single one of these attributes "oh, you're too beta," is just somewhat insulting to his masculinity and demanding perfection from him. Just be honest at least. Just say "no, you need to be more perfect because your wife's love appears to be conditional." I say that as someone who does not defend DHs a ton on this board but I am just getting sick of the "alpha-beta" crap and I find it demeaning to men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I pined for the (cute) guy on the chess team, if there was one, and never on the football players yuck. I always preferred the quieter, studious, more sensitive guys. Of course you don't want to deal with someone who is completely passive all the time, but this alpha-beta thing is just crap.

Most of the alpha-beta posters are speaking in generalities. Most of them even acknowledge you need some beta to really make it in a relationship.

I posit it's possible to be alpha in different fields/mental stuff, or someone on the chess team appears to be more alpha simply by following regular social norms (and not being creepy awkward).

Ok I guess the problem that I am having with the "alpha-beta" posters is that at this moment I have no idea what the heck alpha-beta means. So being socially normal is alpha behavior? Being in good physical shape is alpha? Making a lot of money is alpha? This is all "manly" stuff? It just seems like a totally arbitrary word salad type scheme that is a little sexist and offensive. I mean, to me, these sound like just regular positive attributes that would be appreciated in a man or a woman. If you marry someone and they are sensitive, help around the house, parent the kids, make a lot of money, look good, and act socially normal, that is actually called a PERFECT PERSON. Of COURSE you would like having sex with this person because he is a fantasy man. To say to a man who doesn't have every single one of these attributes "oh, you're too beta," is just somewhat insulting to his masculinity and demanding perfection from him. Just be honest at least. Just say "no, you need to be more perfect because your wife's love appears to be conditional." I say that as someone who does not defend DHs a ton on this board but I am just getting sick of the "alpha-beta" crap and I find it demeaning to men.

NP here: Based on my experiences, a woman's sexual interest in her husband is pretty clearly conditional. It is the men who delude themselves about that fact that get into trouble.

[Anonymous]

I've never heard of bad sex before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I pined for the (cute) guy on the chess team, if there was one, and never on the football players yuck. I always preferred the quieter, studious, more sensitive guys. Of course you don't want to deal with someone who is completely passive all the time, but this alpha-beta thing is just crap.

Most of the alpha-beta posters are speaking in generalities. Most of them even acknowledge you need some beta to really make it in a relationship.

I posit it's possible to be alpha in different fields/mental stuff, or someone on the chess team appears to be more alpha simply by following regular social norms (and not being creepy awkward).

Ok I guess the problem that I am having with the "alpha-beta" posters is that at this moment I have no idea what the heck alpha-beta means. So being socially normal is alpha behavior? Being in good physical shape is alpha? Making a lot of money is alpha? This is all "manly" stuff? It just seems like a totally arbitrary word salad type scheme that is a little sexist and offensive. I mean, to me, these sound like just regular positive attributes that would be appreciated in a man or a woman. If you marry someone and they are sensitive, help around the house, parent the kids, make a lot of money, look good, and act socially normal, that is actually called a PERFECT PERSON. Of COURSE you would like having sex with this person because he is a fantasy man. To say to a man who doesn't have every single one of these attributes "oh, you're too beta," is just somewhat insulting to his masculinity and demanding perfection from him. Just be honest at least. Just say "no, you need to be more perfect because your wife's love appears to be conditional." I say that as someone who does not defend DHs a ton on this board but I am just getting sick of the "alpha-beta" crap and I find it demeaning to men.

It's short hand and, you're right, there is not a universally accepted definition of either. But, as I tend to use and, and in the sense Athol Kay (who I recommended OP checking out earlier) uses it; it's not entirely arbitrary. One thing I'm trying to emphasize and seem to be failing is that "alpha" and "beta" aren't mutually exclusive. You can be both or neither.

He describes "alpha" traits as "those associated with classic “manly man” strengths - Power, dominance, physical ability, bravery, wealth, cool and confidence." He descries "beta" traits as "those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience."

There are good and bad kinds of both. Alpha behavior can be found in confident leaders as well as cocky assholes. Both seem to inspire a certain amount of sexual attraction from the ladies; at least in the short term. (As an extreme, witness the seeming oddity of the women who develop romantic relationships with convicted murderers behind bars.) Beta behavior can be dependable and helpful or it can be clingy and needy.

Generally speaking, I think women might well appreciate a husband who is kind and dependable but I don't think they will maintain their sexual attraction for him unless he's also something of a confident leader for the family. However, "leadership" is a tricky proposition in a family because, all too often historically, male leadership hasn't really meant leadership; rather it's been code for "female subjugation." Ideally, for a long term, sexually satisfying marriage, a guy has to throw in a bunch of good beta, and look to provide a bunch of good alpha as well that includes leadership that does not subjugate.

Nobody said it was going to be easy!

[Anonymous]

One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Personally, I pined for the (cute) guy on the chess team, if there was one, and never on the football players yuck. I always preferred the quieter, studious, more sensitive guys. Of course you don't want to deal with someone who is completely passive all the time, but this alpha-beta thing is just crap.

Most of the alpha-beta posters are speaking in generalities. Most of them even acknowledge you need some beta to really make it in a relationship.

I posit it's possible to be alpha in different fields/mental stuff, or someone on the chess team appears to be more alpha simply by following regular social norms (and not being creepy awkward).

Ok I guess the problem that I am having with the "alpha-beta" posters is that at this moment I have no idea what the heck alpha-beta means. So being socially normal is alpha behavior? Being in good physical shape is alpha? Making a lot of money is alpha? This is all "manly" stuff? It just seems like a totally arbitrary word salad type scheme that is a little sexist and offensive. I mean, to me, these sound like just regular positive attributes that would be appreciated in a man or a woman. If you marry someone and they are sensitive, help around the house, parent the kids, make a lot of money, look good, and act socially normal, that is actually called a PERFECT PERSON. Of COURSE you would like having sex with this person because he is a fantasy man. To say to a man who doesn't have every single one of these attributes "oh, you're too beta," is just somewhat insulting to his masculinity and demanding perfection from him. Just be honest at least. Just say "no, you need to be more perfect because your wife's love appears to be conditional." I say that as someone who does not defend DHs a ton on this board but I am just getting sick of the "alpha-beta" crap and I find it demeaning to men.

Avtually this whole problem with sex is an alpha-beta thing, for the lack of better term. But we need both the alpha and the beta characteristics in our husbands. If a husband had all these, he would be perfect, but there are no perfect people, you are right here. The answer in my opinion that for each of us there is a particular mixture of the alpha-beta characteristics that works. It is individual, it is not that certain alpha, or beta, characteristics work on all women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

Were you honest about your lack of attraction to him? It sounds like you were in a tough spot, but I think a lot of men (incorrectly) assume that a woman would not marry a man she was not sexually attracted to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

Wow! How would you feel if your husband said the same thing about you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

Were you honest about your lack of attraction to him? It sounds like you were in a tough spot, but I think a lot of men (incorrectly) assume that a woman would not marry a man she was not sexually attracted to.

Yes, I think you are right. Because generally men would never marry a woman they are not attracted to physically, they assume that women think the same. And my husband had zero relationship experience.

I can never flat out tell him that, that would be very cruel and he is a wonderful man in every way. But I have told him before many times that I have doubts ( including the day before our wedding) and I think he feels it too and he has asked before if I am attracted to him. It is just all so damn cruel and we are both nice caring people and we love our kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

If you're both happy with the frequency and quality of sex (or lack thereof) then it's not a problem. It's a problem if there is a disparity. And, it's a problem that's your fault if you knew or should have known before marriage that you weren't going to be sexually attracted enough to meet his/her needs or expectations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One of the women with bad sex here. This is for the people that said what a horrible selfish thing is to marry someone you are not sexually compatable with. Yes, it is selfish, but in most cases things are not so clear cut and it was not an easy decision.

My situation is that my father was abusive, I have low self-confidence and dated for years men that mistreated me. Then I met my husband, he was wonderful in every way but I was just not that physically attracted to him. He had some past issues too, and he really wanted to settle down. I did not mind having a stable relationship so we married.
That's all.

Were you honest about your lack of attraction to him? It sounds like you were in a tough spot, but I think a lot of men (incorrectly) assume that a woman would not marry a man she was not sexually attracted to.

Yes, I think you are right. Because generally men would never marry a woman they are not attracted to physically, they assume that women think the same. And my husband had zero relationship experience.

I can never flat out tell him that, that would be very cruel and he is a wonderful man in every way. But I have told him before many times that I have doubts ( including the day before our wedding) and I think he feels it too and he has asked before if I am attracted to him. It is just all so damn cruel and we are both nice caring people and we love our kids.

It is hard. I am a DH in this situation, and I suspect that my DW feels the same way, but would never tell me. But that leaves me trying over and over again to improve the situation, and it feels pretty hopeless.

[Anonymous]

Yes, it is hard. I would feel terrible if I was him. But I actually feels terrible is it is now. This is not just love me/ don’t love me thing and sex/no sex. This has real implications. Because I am a very emotional person and it seems that I miss that sexual compatibility but it is hard for me to do it with him, I get into these periods of time that go for days when I am dizzy, lightheaded my whole back hurts, I have body aches all over, I lose sleep and I can’t concentrate at work and sometimes make mistakes even. The way I feel emotionally transforms on my body and that is when it is really hard. And it feels so lonely too.

I am probably the most fucked up person that has ever posted on this blog. That’s me.

[Anonymous]

And for the DH that posted- there is no guarantee that your wife feels the same way as me, don't try to compare. Every relationship is different.