Why did FCPS decide to have “Center” schools for advanced classes?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

I think it’s awful if parents do that. It hasn’t been our experience. The AAP students maintain friendships with non AAP friends. Especially if they are in extracurriculars together. Same sports team, scouts, etc. It takes a bit more effort to see each other outside of that. It seems that some areas have a more toxic competitive attitude about AAP which is a shame. But you’re right, good riddance if that’s how they are. It’s awful if their attitude does rub off on their kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

So basically the above grade level kids get split into two groups....the group waiting on the below grade level kids in full time aap, and the kids waiting on the below grade level kids in general ed.
If the purpose is to group the above grade level kids together it hasn't worked.

Which begs the question, who exactly are the full time services for? It's pretty established that it's not a gifted program. For an above grade level, high performing, high achieving child it's still a toss up.

This misrepresents things. The vast majority are average and get into these programs through appeals and private diagnoses. Further, these programs seem to be more about segregating by HHI.

“Vast majority” is a stretch. Appeals have a low success rate from my observation. You can tell who got in first round from AAP orientation. Hardly anyone not there shows up the first day of school. Most kids in AAP do not have a preexisting diagnosis. Although some kids do end up getting diagnosed after starting AAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

So basically the above grade level kids get split into two groups....the group waiting on the below grade level kids in full time aap, and the kids waiting on the below grade level kids in general ed.
If the purpose is to group the above grade level kids together it hasn't worked.

Which begs the question, who exactly are the full time services for? It's pretty established that it's not a gifted program. For an above grade level, high performing, high achieving child it's still a toss up.

The experience depends entirely on the specific school. It’s a toss up at some schools but some schools are able to effectively implement full time services.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

So basically the above grade level kids get split into two groups....the group waiting on the below grade level kids in full time aap, and the kids waiting on the below grade level kids in general ed.
If the purpose is to group the above grade level kids together it hasn't worked.

Which begs the question, who exactly are the full time services for? It's pretty established that it's not a gifted program. For an above grade level, high performing, high achieving child it's still a toss up.

This misrepresents things. The vast majority are average and get into these programs through appeals and private diagnoses. Further, these programs seem to be more about segregating by HHI.

“Vast majority” is a stretch. Appeals have a low success rate from my observation. You can tell who got in first round from AAP orientation. Hardly anyone not there shows up the first day of school. Most kids in AAP do not have a preexisting diagnosis. Although some kids do end up getting diagnosed after starting AAP.

Not all parents go to AAP orientation either, and so the number of kids getting in on appeal would be even less.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

I think it’s awful if parents do that. It hasn’t been our experience. The AAP students maintain friendships with non AAP friends. Especially if they are in extracurriculars together. Same sports team, scouts, etc. It takes a bit more effort to see each other outside of that. It seems that some areas have a more toxic competitive attitude about AAP which is a shame. But you’re right, good riddance if that’s how they are. It’s awful if their attitude does rub off on their kids.

We did let a couple friendships fizzle out. But we would have even if they were still in the same school. Those “friends” pitted my kid against each other, were controlling and would frequently say mean things. The parents might have thought that we dropped them because of AAP but it’s an entirely different reason.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

I never iced anyone my kid wanted to be friends with. But I didn't go out of my way to keep cultivating a friend that was no longer in my kid's class (who never went to a center) because I saw that his friendships naturally flowed toward the kids he saw more often. There was literally 1 kid from ES that he stayed friends with for a few years even though they weren't in class together but only because they were besties in K and really loved hanging still. The rest ebbed and flowed depending on classes a lot.

It's harder because base school is a center, so we get to watch everyone move as a group as we hang out outside it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

Dp. I had a kid who "needed advanced math but there was nothing they could do". He wasn't the only kid in his class in that position.

Yes but PP's kid got advanced math instruction due to being placed in AAP math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

If your kid is as smart as you say, why not push for AAP or at least principal placement?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

If your kid is as smart as you say, why not push for AAP or at least principal placement?

Center school, they don't principal place.
How do you push? All I said is that I'm sure some of those friends are peers. Teacher thinks kid needs it, committee of people who have never met the kid says no.
My experience at the center school is that the very smart kids get divided...half are in and half can't get in. Someone doing a sociology degree should write a report about the short term and long term affects of the program.
For my kids, I think long term the cream will rise to the top, but short term it creates real social and emotional stress and affects confidence
For the kids who get in but struggle, I imagine more negative long term affects?