Why did FCPS decide to have “Center” schools for advanced classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always envied the Montgomery County Public School families. Their "gifted" kids were given extra and enriched assignments in the regular classroom, differential learning.

Not really. My current HS senior tested in to the CES program and went to a different school for 4th and 5th grade. Before that she didn’t receive differentiated learning in the classroom. Back at the home middle school, MCPS puts literally every student in Honors English, so it’s not even close to an honors class.


I always felt that FCPS had more options for the gifted students, I’m surprised that you heard the opposite.

+1
DD was in MCPS through 2nd. Nothing was done for kids K-2. I don’t think anything happened at least at her school after that either for gifted kids. And having to wait to 4th for services only to get them for just two years at a new spot is a bad model.
FCPS is definitely better for gifted / advanced kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

It depends on how the clustering is handled. Some of the LLIV programs do clustering where kids switch to an AAP classroom for math and language art blocks, but remain in clustered homerooms for everything else. It's a way to deliver a lot of AAP level content to the kids without creating a strong AAP vs. not-AAP divide. It also makes it easier for LIII kids to push into AAP in their areas of strength.

This is how schools were 20-30 years ago - differentiated learning has always been a thing. I remember in elementary school that we would switch classrooms for both reading and math to sit with our same level peers. We turned out just fine - I was not in the gifted program, but was probably always in the highest reading and math groups and I graduated 5th in my high school class of 500 kids having taken all Honors and AP classes throughout.

Switching classes and grouping BY CLASS level for key subjects is the entire point. Without a LLIV structure that is set up for that clustering just means supposedly the teacher will teacher the AAP kids in her class different content than the rest of the kids are getting. I just don’t think that is realistic to think it will happen regularly, consistently and with quality. Kids need grouped at the classroom level for genuine differentiation to occur.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

Dp. I had a kid who "needed advanced math but there was nothing they could do". He wasn't the only kid in his class in that position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

It depends on how the clustering is handled. Some of the LLIV programs do clustering where kids switch to an AAP classroom for math and language art blocks, but remain in clustered homerooms for everything else. It's a way to deliver a lot of AAP level content to the kids without creating a strong AAP vs. not-AAP divide. It also makes it easier for LIII kids to push into AAP in their areas of strength.

This is how schools were 20-30 years ago - differentiated learning has always been a thing. I remember in elementary school that we would switch classrooms for both reading and math to sit with our same level peers. We turned out just fine - I was not in the gifted program, but was probably always in the highest reading and math groups and I graduated 5th in my high school class of 500 kids having taken all Honors and AP classes throughout.

Switching classes and grouping BY CLASS level for key subjects is the entire point. Without a LLIV structure that is set up for that clustering just means supposedly the teacher will teacher the AAP kids in her class different content than the rest of the kids are getting. I just don’t think that is realistic to think it will happen regularly, consistently and with quality. Kids need grouped at the classroom level for genuine differentiation to occur.

Welcome to the experience of the kids with perfect sols in gen ed through 6th grade. They are largely ignored, imagine if they were in a class where they could get some attention from the teacher!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

So basically the above grade level kids get split into two groups....the group waiting on the below grade level kids in full time aap, and the kids waiting on the below grade level kids in general ed.
If the purpose is to group the above grade level kids together it hasn't worked.

Which begs the question, who exactly are the full time services for? It's pretty established that it's not a gifted program. For an above grade level, high performing, high achieving child it's still a toss up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

Fair, but the gifted kids are mixed in with the rest of AAP (mom of 2 non-gifted AAP kids and 1 borderline/possibly gifted AAP kid, but no "wow she's a genius" types)

Also in aap as overheard on the playground, kids who struggled in 1st and 2nd grade but are in and the parents "don't care what kind of supports they need because they are in and can't get kicked out"

Kid #1 didn't get into AAP. Pushed into advanced math, but had no above grade level reading group for a few years, meaning they were alone and ignored by the teacher. Meanwhile, kid #2 gets into AAP and gets little teacher interaction for language arts, because the teacher is too busy with the group that is below grade level and another group at grade level (in AAP! - the teacher expressed this at the conference). Make it make sense.

So basically the above grade level kids get split into two groups....the group waiting on the below grade level kids in full time aap, and the kids waiting on the below grade level kids in general ed.
If the purpose is to group the above grade level kids together it hasn't worked.

Which begs the question, who exactly are the full time services for? It's pretty established that it's not a gifted program. For an above grade level, high performing, high achieving child it's still a toss up.

This misrepresents things. The vast majority are average and get into these programs through appeals and private diagnoses. Further, these programs seem to be more about segregating by HHI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

Dp. I had a kid who "needed advanced math but there was nothing they could do". He wasn't the only kid in his class in that position.

Are you at a center? I’ve heard they don’t allow kids to push in for advanced math at center schools. But our LLIV school always has several kids that push in every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

Dp. I had a kid who "needed advanced math but there was nothing they could do". He wasn't the only kid in his class in that position.

Are you at a center? I’ve heard they don’t allow kids to push in for advanced math at center schools. But our LLIV school always has several kids that push in every year.

Yes, it is a center.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

What is your kid missing out on? It would be a different story if he wasn't able to join the LLIV math class, but he is able to, so what's the loss?

AAP parents would tell you that the loss is the peer group but now that my child is set to take Algebra next year, you’re absolutely right, it no longer matters. I’m told Honors and AAP in our middle school is basically the same curriculum.

We'll, my gen ed kid has definitely lost their peer group. Explain to me how every kid they've ever befriended at school needs to be in a special environment that doesn't include my kid. Odds are they are academic peers with at least some of them. Actually, after hearing some of the other kids struggles, my kid may be even stronger academically than some of them. My kid will have the pleasure of being excluded from their peer group by the systems in place.
It's one thing when friendships dissolve naturally. It's a completely different thing when the parents start icing out your kid because they'll never be in the same class together again.
But, then again, they are doing me the favor of showing me their true colors sooner than later.

I never iced anyone my kid wanted to be friends with. But I didn't go out of my way to keep cultivating a friend that was no longer in my kid's class (who never went to a center) because I saw that his friendships naturally flowed toward the kids he saw more often. There was literally 1 kid from ES that he stayed friends with for a few years even though they weren't in class together but only because they were besties in K and really loved hanging still. The rest ebbed and flowed depending on classes a lot.