Why did FCPS decide to have “Center” schools for advanced classes?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always envied the Montgomery County Public School families. Their "gifted" kids were given extra and enriched assignments in the regular classroom, differential learning.

This is the cluster model for LLIV. Some schools have this now. Parents seem to generally hate it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always envied the Montgomery County Public School families. Their "gifted" kids were given extra and enriched assignments in the regular classroom, differential learning.

Not really. My current HS senior tested in to the CES program and went to a different school for 4th and 5th grade. Before that she didn’t receive differentiated learning in the classroom. Back at the home middle school, MCPS puts literally every student in Honors English, so it’s not even close to an honors class.


I always felt that FCPS had more options for the gifted students, I’m surprised that you heard the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

I wonder if this is more common in pyramids / centers where parents are very competitive. We’re not in one of those areas so the type of prepping you’re talking about doesn’t really happen. So it would be very rare in our area. My kid and the other students in the center program are very strong in math. I only know one student who gets math tutoring to reinforce the concepts, not because they can’t grasp the material. But this student is also very strong in the other subjects. It’s unfortunate that there are some parents who try to rig the system. It’s not only unfair to others but also detrimental for their child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

I wonder if this is more common in pyramids / centers where parents are very competitive. We’re not in one of those areas so the type of prepping you’re talking about doesn’t really happen. So it would be very rare in our area. My kid and the other students in the center program are very strong in math. I only know one student who gets math tutoring to reinforce the concepts, not because they can’t grasp the material. But this student is also very strong in the other subjects. It’s unfortunate that there are some parents who try to rig the system. It’s not only unfair to others but also detrimental for their child.

I agree, except they are not only hurting their own child, they are using up extra resources that could benefit other children as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

I wonder if this is more common in pyramids / centers where parents are very competitive. We’re not in one of those areas so the type of prepping you’re talking about doesn’t really happen. So it would be very rare in our area. My kid and the other students in the center program are very strong in math. I only know one student who gets math tutoring to reinforce the concepts, not because they can’t grasp the material. But this student is also very strong in the other subjects. It’s unfortunate that there are some parents who try to rig the system. It’s not only unfair to others but also detrimental for their child.

I agree, except they are not only hurting their own child, they are using up extra resources that could benefit other children as well

100%. And undermining the integrity of the program.

[Anonymous]

The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

It depends on how the clustering is handled. Some of the LLIV programs do clustering where kids switch to an AAP classroom for math and language art blocks, but remain in clustered homerooms for everything else. It's a way to deliver a lot of AAP level content to the kids without creating a strong AAP vs. not-AAP divide. It also makes it easier for LIII kids to push into AAP in their areas of strength.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

But aap doesn't equal gifted....right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do we get elementary AAP centers at every school Like they are doing with middle schools?

They're already doing Local Level IV, it's supposed to be at every elementary by now

LLIV quality, implementation and enrollment varies between schools. So not exactly the same experience that centers offer. Our LLIV program does a cluster model with less than 10% of the kids being Level IV. Our center school offers a better experience. Some LLIV programs are more robust.

Totally agree, I was just responding to the PP who asked to get AAP centers at every school - and that's basically what LLIV is. Unfortunately you can't often replicate the "center" experience b/c there just aren't enough kids to form a large enough cohort at most elementary schools - which is *why* they need centers.

I bet the level 3 kids could round out those classes quite well. I bet that some of the level 3 kids will even outperform the committee designated level 4 kids.
My son had a friend who was getting not just passed advanced, but perfect scores on his sols as a level 3, and still couldn't convince the committee to put him in level 4
I'm quite sure that your level 4 experience would not have been sullied by having kids like him in the classroom

DP. Some schools have enough level 4 and level 3 kids to make a class. Many schools do not. Some schools do a cluster model instead of a dedicated class. The point is many schools are not setup to offer a true full time AAP experience. But some schools are.

Meanwhile the level 3 kid with perfect sols got to hang out in a class where a quarter of the kids were below grade level and kids who were getting pulled out for remediation in math were getting the level 4 experience

I’m sure this does happen but I would guess it’s the unfortunate rare case. Also knowing nothing about these two kids and what was in their submission packets, it’s hard to say what made one eligible vs the other. This would probably be a good case for the level 3 kid to appeal.

My understanding is that the kid applied every year and never got in and is now taking honors in middle school.

I don't think it's quite as rare as you think, but it makes people feel better to think so. I know of several level 4 kids who struggle with the math, and/ or who even struggled with math before they were selected and basically got tutored to look better at math than they probably are. I know of several level 3 kids who needed advanced math but were told too bad we don't have room for you.

This is my kid (except in 6th grade now, but going to take all Honors next year).

I can also confirm the math stuff. My 6th grader (who keeps getting rejected from AAP) gets pushed into the LLIV class for advanced math (and has since 4th grade) and has said that a lot of the other kids struggle (and I know for a fact that many of them have tutors because their parents have asked me for the tutor we use for my older child).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The general concept of pooling to create peer groups in sufficient numbers as well as more efficiently providing resources like teachers with appropriate credentials isn’t a terrible one. The devil is in the details as usual. The move to local level IV as others have said has its own set of problems and for some-to-many students will lead to reduced opportunities/rigor if centers are phased out. Just my two cents.

I really don't think that's true if they group the kids correctly...

There's a reason no association for gifted kids is a fan of clustering. None. It doesn't work.

It depends on how the clustering is handled. Some of the LLIV programs do clustering where kids switch to an AAP classroom for math and language art blocks, but remain in clustered homerooms for everything else. It's a way to deliver a lot of AAP level content to the kids without creating a strong AAP vs. not-AAP divide. It also makes it easier for LIII kids to push into AAP in their areas of strength.

This is how schools were 20-30 years ago - differentiated learning has always been a thing. I remember in elementary school that we would switch classrooms for both reading and math to sit with our same level peers. We turned out just fine - I was not in the gifted program, but was probably always in the highest reading and math groups and I graduated 5th in my high school class of 500 kids having taken all Honors and AP classes throughout.