AP Classes and IEPs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In terms of level of support, if you take an AP class, you are taking a college level class with the reasonable options of accommodations one might request in a college setting. There are specific cases for one-on-one support such as interpreter for a deaf student, note taker for a physically disabled student (unable to write) etc.

This is incorrect. An AP class is a high school class. A high school student should be supported in an AP class per their IEP just as they would for any other class in high school. The accommodations on the AP exam itself are governed by the College Board, so the student does have to apply to the CB separately for those.


- special ed atty

Special ed atty, how is support defined? This seems murky to me. IEP teams have to disclose student goals, accommodations, and service hours but this hardly nails down the delivery methods for specialized instruction.

There is no way you are a special education attorney and do not know this. If you aren't lying, you are terrible at your job. Our kids get the support as documented in their ieps in high level classes

My kid requires small classes. He just cannot handle 30+ people in a classroom. I was told that this was not possible in AP courses. His class schedule is ridiculously easy. Cannot wait until he can move to DE. Montgomery College caps class sizes at 24. He can't handle 24 people either but at least I can see how many seats are left and we will pick sections based on that information. I've been following the MC schedule and 8am classes tend to have lots of available seats late into registration. Those will be the sections we will go after.

If there's a way that I can force MCPS to provide an AP class in the Bridge program, I'm all ears.

I don't know what the Bridge program is. Your problem is different if you know your kid can't function because of the size of the AP class. I would talk to an advocate or special ed lawyer to see what can be done.

Bridge is the MCPS self contained classrooms for MS/HS for kids with anxiety who cannot function in the larger classroom settings. The issue is that there is only one class period for each subject and they seem to cater to the lowest common denominator. Most classes are grade level; not even honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In terms of level of support, if you take an AP class, you are taking a college level class with the reasonable options of accommodations one might request in a college setting. There are specific cases for one-on-one support such as interpreter for a deaf student, note taker for a physically disabled student (unable to write) etc.

This is incorrect. An AP class is a high school class. A high school student should be supported in an AP class per their IEP just as they would for any other class in high school. The accommodations on the AP exam itself are governed by the College Board, so the student does have to apply to the CB separately for those.


- special ed atty

Special ed atty, how is support defined? This seems murky to me. IEP teams have to disclose student goals, accommodations, and service hours but this hardly nails down the delivery methods for specialized instruction.

There is no way you are a special education attorney and do not know this. If you aren't lying, you are terrible at your job. Our kids get the support as documented in their ieps in high level classes

My kid requires small classes. He just cannot handle 30+ people in a classroom. I was told that this was not possible in AP courses. His class schedule is ridiculously easy. Cannot wait until he can move to DE. Montgomery College caps class sizes at 24. He can't handle 24 people either but at least I can see how many seats are left and we will pick sections based on that information. I've been following the MC schedule and 8am classes tend to have lots of available seats late into registration. Those will be the sections we will go after.

If there's a way that I can force MCPS to provide an AP class in the Bridge program, I'm all ears.

I don't know what the Bridge program is. Your problem is different if you know your kid can't function because of the size of the AP class. I would talk to an advocate or special ed lawyer to see what can be done.

Bridge is the MCPS self contained classrooms for MS/HS for kids with anxiety who cannot function in the larger classroom settings. The issue is that there is only one class period for each subject and they seem to cater to the lowest common denominator. Most classes are grade level; not even honors.

That is terrible. I would talk to a good advocate. Be wary as in my long experience, there were a few terrible ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most likely the answer is no to support in AP/DE class simply due to lack of staffing. However, you will want to reach out to the person in charge of College Board accommodations so your student can apply for testing accommodations if needed.

17:07 again. Yes, that's crucial. The AP exam coordinator did the paperwork vis-a-vis the College Board. I assume they sent the same info that was on the IEP. He had double time on all College Board exams, and the ACT. One year the proctor for one of the AP history exams could not verify his typing accommodation and he refused to give it to him - my dysgraphic DS had to handwrite his answers, which was very stressful, but he still got a good score thanks to the extra time.

I would have sued. My kids dysgraphia and handwriting are so bad despite non stop writing work that it would have impacted them terribly even with extra time.

I couldn't sue, because he got a 5: social science is his strongest subject, and his handwriting is large and unformed, so in the greater scheme of things, not too hard to decipher (it's not a doctor's scrawl). But I did pat myself on the back for forcing him to work on his block and cursive all these years.

My child had the same issue on an AP exam. They offered to cancel the score and allow him to re-test in the makeup date but he declined. He similarly also received a five but it wasn’t a terribly difficult AP subject.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An IEP is made to support a students ability to access the curriculum. If your kid is in AP classes, they are more than accessing the curriculum. Hence, no support required.

This is not true. Bright kids who have an IEP and are otherwise qualified for an AP or any advanced class or magnet have a right to the same supports and accommodations in the AP or advanced class.

Whatever accommodations are on the IEP must be delivered in all classes - no exceptions. I have had 2 kids in magnets - 1 with an IEP and 1 with a 504. The AP teacher is obligated to comply with the accommodations.

AP classes are considered part of the curriculum - not “more than the curriculum.”

What kind of “support” does your child need in an AP class, OP?

Some might find this controversial but I think if your kid is on a college pathway it is probably reasonable (from a parenting perspective) to start getting them used to a less supportive environment in some of their more challenging academic classes. 504 accommodations are more similar to what will be available at the college level so I didn’t think it was a terrible thing when our kids AP classes weren’t supported.

This is ridiculous. Our kids disabilities don't improve over time and don't go away. The goal is for our kids to learn and access the content. My kids are out of college now but both the huge state school one kid went to and the small private my other kid went to provided the same accommodations.

People here are describing a specific IEP accommodation (eg a second teacher in the classroom). Have you ever seen as a college accommodation a second teacher in the room to keep a child on task, or to redirect them from explosive meltdowns?

Colleges do offer reasonable accommodations but they are not required to offer at the same level as IEPs. To tell people otherwise is misleading.

Some things that are in an IEP will translate over, like extra time for testing. Others, like reduced homework, are very unlikely to be approved as a college accommodation.

I am only suggesting that if you have a kid on a pre-college track it might be good for them to begin to get used to the types of accommodations that they are likely to see in college which may be a step down from HS. Transitioning to college is a big step. Losing supports you are used to at the same time as shifting to college feels like it would make it much harder if the child hadn’t been preparing in advance.

I’m not fighting that colleges offer accommodations. Clearly some accommodations will translate. But not every accommodation will translate and the specific one people are talking about here is an accommodation that is unlikely to be available in college.

[Anonymous]

AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An IEP is made to support a students ability to access the curriculum. If your kid is in AP classes, they are more than accessing the curriculum. Hence, no support required.

This is not true. Bright kids who have an IEP and are otherwise qualified for an AP or any advanced class or magnet have a right to the same supports and accommodations in the AP or advanced class.

Whatever accommodations are on the IEP must be delivered in all classes - no exceptions. I have had 2 kids in magnets - 1 with an IEP and 1 with a 504. The AP teacher is obligated to comply with the accommodations.

AP classes are considered part of the curriculum - not “more than the curriculum.”

What kind of “support” does your child need in an AP class, OP?

Some might find this controversial but I think if your kid is on a college pathway it is probably reasonable (from a parenting perspective) to start getting them used to a less supportive environment in some of their more challenging academic classes. 504 accommodations are more similar to what will be available at the college level so I didn’t think it was a terrible thing when our kids AP classes weren’t supported.

This is ridiculous. Our kids disabilities don't improve over time and don't go away. The goal is for our kids to learn and access the content. My kids are out of college now but both the huge state school one kid went to and the small private my other kid went to provided the same accommodations.

People here are describing a specific IEP accommodation (eg a second teacher in the classroom). Have you ever seen as a college accommodation a second teacher in the room to keep a child on task, or to redirect them from explosive meltdowns?

Colleges do offer reasonable accommodations but they are not required to offer at the same level as IEPs. To tell people otherwise is misleading.

Some things that are in an IEP will translate over, like extra time for testing. Others, like reduced homework, are very unlikely to be approved as a college accommodation.

I am only suggesting that if you have a kid on a pre-college track it might be good for them to begin to get used to the types of accommodations that they are likely to see in college which may be a step down from HS. Transitioning to college is a big step. Losing supports you are used to at the same time as shifting to college feels like it would make it much harder if the child hadn’t been preparing in advance.

I’m not fighting that colleges offer accommodations. Clearly some accommodations will translate. But not every accommodation will translate and the specific one people are talking about here is an accommodation that is unlikely to be available in college.

Honestly, IME, post-pandemic at a large top 50 school, accommodations are better than in HS. Disability law applies in college, and colleges have much deeper pockets if they are sued and they have a bigger mass of disabled students so they pay for more supports - which are often available to all. My kid could have access to a videotape of fresh Chem 101 to watch in his dorm. He didn’t need an aide to keep him on task when he could up the video speed to 1.5 time and stop it and rewind when he didn’t catch something. In classes where there is no video, he can use an app that records the teachers voice, produces a transcript, makes a AI summary and syncs the audio with his written notes so that he can tap the page and hear what the teacher was saying when he was writing a specific note.

College is actually easier in many ways than HS. DC doesn’t have to take boring subjects, or subjects in his area of weakness. He can drop classes that require long papers or get an extra time accommodation without having to fight with the prof about it. He has far less class time than in HS, so he has much more time to study and do work. He can study where he feels most productive. He can get a tutor or executive function coach if he wants. He can form a study group and benefit from the organization and motivation of peers.

I wish people would stop pushing the supposed lack of accommodations in college or the workplace as a reason not to get or use accommodations in HS. It’s just not a realistic reflection of how much more accommodating and manageable the college environment can be.

It is a terrible thing disabled kids are not supported in advanced classes. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

+1. I also do not sign documents acknowledging that I am OK with providing less than is legally required. They usually back down. On rare occasions when the school doesn’t back down, I send these requests an assistant superintendent or superintendent, pointing out the illegality, which is then usually swiftly corrected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An IEP is made to support a students ability to access the curriculum. If your kid is in AP classes, they are more than accessing the curriculum. Hence, no support required.

This is not true. Bright kids who have an IEP and are otherwise qualified for an AP or any advanced class or magnet have a right to the same supports and accommodations in the AP or advanced class.

Whatever accommodations are on the IEP must be delivered in all classes - no exceptions. I have had 2 kids in magnets - 1 with an IEP and 1 with a 504. The AP teacher is obligated to comply with the accommodations.

AP classes are considered part of the curriculum - not “more than the curriculum.”

What kind of “support” does your child need in an AP class, OP?

Some might find this controversial but I think if your kid is on a college pathway it is probably reasonable (from a parenting perspective) to start getting them used to a less supportive environment in some of their more challenging academic classes. 504 accommodations are more similar to what will be available at the college level so I didn’t think it was a terrible thing when our kids AP classes weren’t supported.

This is ridiculous. Our kids disabilities don't improve over time and don't go away. The goal is for our kids to learn and access the content. My kids are out of college now but both the huge state school one kid went to and the small private my other kid went to provided the same accommodations.

People here are describing a specific IEP accommodation (eg a second teacher in the classroom). Have you ever seen as a college accommodation a second teacher in the room to keep a child on task, or to redirect them from explosive meltdowns?

Colleges do offer reasonable accommodations but they are not required to offer at the same level as IEPs. To tell people otherwise is misleading.

Some things that are in an IEP will translate over, like extra time for testing. Others, like reduced homework, are very unlikely to be approved as a college accommodation.

I am only suggesting that if you have a kid on a pre-college track it might be good for them to begin to get used to the types of accommodations that they are likely to see in college which may be a step down from HS. Transitioning to college is a big step. Losing supports you are used to at the same time as shifting to college feels like it would make it much harder if the child hadn’t been preparing in advance.

I’m not fighting that colleges offer accommodations. Clearly some accommodations will translate. But not every accommodation will translate and the specific one people are talking about here is an accommodation that is unlikely to be available in college.

Honestly, IME, post-pandemic at a large top 50 school, accommodations are better than in HS. Disability law applies in college, and colleges have much deeper pockets if they are sued and they have a bigger mass of disabled students so they pay for more supports - which are often available to all. My kid could have access to a videotape of fresh Chem 101 to watch in his dorm. He didn’t need an aide to keep him on task when he could up the video speed to 1.5 time and stop it and rewind when he didn’t catch something. In classes where there is no video, he can use an app that records the teachers voice, produces a transcript, makes a AI summary and syncs the audio with his written notes so that he can tap the page and hear what the teacher was saying when he was writing a specific note.

College is actually easier in many ways than HS. DC doesn’t have to take boring subjects, or subjects in his area of weakness. He can drop classes that require long papers or get an extra time accommodation without having to fight with the prof about it. He has far less class time than in HS, so he has much more time to study and do work. He can study where he feels most productive. He can get a tutor or executive function coach if he wants. He can form a study group and benefit from the organization and motivation of peers.

I wish people would stop pushing the supposed lack of accommodations in college or the workplace as a reason not to get or use accommodations in HS. It’s just not a realistic reflection of how much more accommodating and manageable the college environment can be.

It is a terrible thing disabled kids are not supported in advanced classes. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

This is so true. I refuse to donate much to my kid's alma mater because the lead prof in kid's specialty made remarks trying to justify refusing some simple accommodations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

+1. I also do not sign documents acknowledging that I am OK with providing less than is legally required. They usually back down. On rare occasions when the school doesn’t back down, I send these requests an assistant superintendent or superintendent, pointing out the illegality, which is then usually swiftly corrected.

It's very hard to believe that any school would be that stupid. They can't make something illegal legally binding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

+1. I also do not sign documents acknowledging that I am OK with providing less than is legally required. They usually back down. On rare occasions when the school doesn’t back down, I send these requests an assistant superintendent or superintendent, pointing out the illegality, which is then usually swiftly corrected.

It's very hard to believe that any school would be that stupid. They can't make something illegal legally binding.

OMG. Do you have any kids in a school? School staff and school teachers are stupid every day of the week. I can't believe how much stupid I encountered in the IEP process -- including an accredited school psychologist who did not know the legal standard to determine IEP and 504 eligibility. I could give you a dozen other examples.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

+1. I also do not sign documents acknowledging that I am OK with providing less than is legally required. They usually back down. On rare occasions when the school doesn’t back down, I send these requests an assistant superintendent or superintendent, pointing out the illegality, which is then usually swiftly corrected.

It's very hard to believe that any school would be that stupid. They can't make something illegal legally binding.

OMG. Do you have any kids in a school? School staff and school teachers are stupid every day of the week. I can't believe how much stupid I encountered in the IEP process -- including an accredited school psychologist who did not know the legal standard to determine IEP and 504 eligibility. I could give you a dozen other examples.

In my dc's freshman year of high school, their case manager didn't know what dysgraphia or processing speed was. When we met to discuss kid's ot, she wasn't familiar with that and told me they didn't provide that and she'd never heard of it.

[Anonymous]

Ok people...wake up!

The world of education...especially special education will be going through a brutal change in the next 3-5 years. As teachers and administrators retire, there is no one in line to take their place. We are experiencing a huge teacher shortage at this time. Many schools are not even fully staffed. Special Education teachers are burned out at an all time high and are either leaving to become gen ed teachers or are just leaving the profession altogether. So go ahead and sue to get a teacher in an AP class to provide specialized instruction. The reality is there is no one, and it is going to get worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:An IEP is made to support a students ability to access the curriculum. If your kid is in AP classes, they are more than accessing the curriculum. Hence, no support required.

Um, no. That's not what any of that means.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP classes at the MCPS HS where I teach don’t have coteachers. IEP students can still take them but their parents have to agree that they are ok with an unsupported class. AP classes don’t even have paraeducators at my school. You can try to sue if you want but we literally don’t have the staff to support AP classes. Kids can still get their other accommodations though

The school can not enforce that. You couldn't make me sign that and I would have a lawyer with me at the next IEP meeting. I would force it. They owe the parents for not following the IEP and I would make sure that the whole forcing parents to sign something thing stopped immediately.

+1. I also do not sign documents acknowledging that I am OK with providing less than is legally required. They usually back down. On rare occasions when the school doesn’t back down, I send these requests an assistant superintendent or superintendent, pointing out the illegality, which is then usually swiftly corrected.

It's very hard to believe that any school would be that stupid. They can't make something illegal legally binding.

OMG. Do you have any kids in a school? School staff and school teachers are stupid every day of the week. I can't believe how much stupid I encountered in the IEP process -- including an accredited school psychologist who did not know the legal standard to determine IEP and 504 eligibility. I could give you a dozen other examples.

In my dc's freshman year of high school, their case manager didn't know what dysgraphia or processing speed was. When we met to discuss kid's ot, she wasn't familiar with that and told me they didn't provide that and she'd never heard of it.

That' unconscionable.