Why did the Catholic mass prayers change?

[Anonymous]

I don't understand the fetish with trying to get a literal translation of the Latin. It's not like Jesus spoke in Latin. The Latin itself was a translation of Greek manuscripts, some of which were translated oral traditions that originated in Aramaic.

Yet another example of the Catholic Church getting its priorities wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still hate how we used to say, “and also with you.” And now have to say, “and with your spirit.”

We should have been saying “and with your spirit” all along. That’s what “Et cum spiritu tuo” means.

I think the meaning is still the same. You=your spirit. What is really the difference?

"Your spirit" is supposed to acknowledge the priest's special gift of the spirit at his ordination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That said, many of the changes restored long-standard English translations of things that the prior “Sacramentary” obviously mistranslated.

Examples are “Et cum spiritu tuo” never meant “and also with you.” It always meant “and with your spirit,” and Latin/English Missals before the Council all translated it that way.

If these were "obviously" mistranslated (and I agree, based on my high school Latin), why wait so many years to fix it? That's what I don't get.

The Church moves slowly, and tries to coordinate liturgy on a worldwide level to maintain the universality that is the hallmark of the Catholic (universal) Church. Much easier before 1962 when dealing with only one liturgical language. That said, it is sad that the faithful were deprived for decades of an accurate liturgical translation.

or more likely pope john paul was trying to leave a legacy and that he did.

Pope Saint John Paul II was going on six years dead by the time the revised Missal took effect. The finer points of liturgical translation in one of the plethora of vernacular languages the Church uses was hardly a focus of his Pontificate. The Catechism and Revised Code of Canon Law, among other things, were far more important.

Incorrect. It was JPII's instruction in 2001, Liturgical authenticam, that set the gears in motion for the current translation.

[Anonymous]

There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
That said, many of the changes restored long-standard English translations of things that the prior “Sacramentary” obviously mistranslated.

Examples are “Et cum spiritu tuo” never meant “and also with you.” It always meant “and with your spirit,” and Latin/English Missals before the Council all translated it that way.

If these were "obviously" mistranslated (and I agree, based on my high school Latin), why wait so many years to fix it? That's what I don't get.

The Church moves slowly, and tries to coordinate liturgy on a worldwide level to maintain the universality that is the hallmark of the Catholic (universal) Church. Much easier before 1962 when dealing with only one liturgical language. That said, it is sad that the faithful were deprived for decades of an accurate liturgical translation.

or more likely pope john paul was trying to leave a legacy and that he did.

Pope Saint John Paul II was going on six years dead by the time the revised Missal took effect. The finer points of liturgical translation in one of the plethora of vernacular languages the Church uses was hardly a focus of his Pontificate. The Catechism and Revised Code of Canon Law, among other things, were far more important.

Incorrect. It was JPII's instruction in 2001, Liturgical authenticam, that set the gears in motion for the current translation.

The Pope died in 2005. The revised English translation did not debut until 2011. Liturgiam authenticam set forth translation principles applicable to the universal Church, which were applied (in the case of English) by ICEL (the International Commission on English in the Liturgy) and the relevant Vatican departments ultimately to develop the Revised English-Language Missal. So, while the Pope may have broadly “set in motion” the process of revising liturgical translations, it seems very narrow and Anglo-centric to suggest that creating “a legacy” (something he could hardly fail to do given the duration of his Pontificate and the volume and breadth of his teachings) aimed specifically at the English-language Missal was a motive at all, let alone a primary one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

10 years? That's nothing

New Englander who went to a mid atlantic church. 20 years ago and they opened the mass with "greet your neighbor". Huh? We are stoic New Englanders. We worship alone (with everyone at mass). GTFO with us putting our arms up now too!

30 years ago, I remember the hail mary going from the lord is with thee/ the fruit of thy womb to the lord is with YOU and the fruit of YOUR womb. I will still recite it both ways depending on my mood. Thee/Thy if I'm remembering Sister Gertrude make us do 50 of these out loud with her automaton voice. May she RIP because she was like 80 then.

[Anonymous]

I'm thee/thy and not you/your either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

You think that's nonsense -- what about the idea of living forever in heaven if you die without mortal sin on your soul?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

You think that's nonsense -- what about the idea of living forever in heaven if you die without mortal sin on your soul?

No one has disproven the existence of eternal life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

You think that's nonsense -- what about the idea of living forever in heaven if you die without mortal sin on your soul?

No one has disproven the existence of eternal life.

No one has disproven the existence of Mohammed on a flying carpet. Do you believe that? No one has disproven the existence of a million invisible fruit flys in your refrigerator. Do you believe that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

You think that's nonsense -- what about the idea of living forever in heaven if you die without mortal sin on your soul?

No one has disproven the existence of eternal life.

No one has disproven the existence of Mohammed on a flying carpet. Do you believe that? No one has disproven the existence of a million invisible fruit flys in your refrigerator. Do you believe that?

People are free to believe what they wish, particularly regarding faith traditions.

As for refrigerators, there are tons of invisible things living there, but probably not fruit flies in most cases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There’s a great John Mulaney bit….
The church “changed it to ‘And with your spirit.’ Because that’s what needed revamping in the Catholic Church. That was the squeaky wheel that needed the grease.”

Ha ha. I refuse to say the new stuff. And I will not raise my arms during the Our Father. Such nonsense!

You think that's nonsense -- what about the idea of living forever in heaven if you die without mortal sin on your soul?

No one has disproven the existence of eternal life.

No one has disproven the existence of Mohammed on a flying carpet. Do you believe that? No one has disproven the existence of a million invisible fruit flys in your refrigerator. Do you believe that?

People are free to believe what they wish, particularly regarding faith traditions.

As for refrigerators, there are tons of invisible things living there, but probably not fruit flies in most cases.

People are also free not to believe what they wish, particularly regarding faith traditions. You can believe or not believe anything you want, particularly regarding faith traditions, but only with faith traditions is believing or not believing anything you want considered to be normal behavior.

In other cases, you'd be laughed at, at a minimum, or maybe thrown in jail or the mental hospital, depending on what you believed without having any scientific proof.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm thee/thy and not you/your either.

Thee/thy are historically the informal forms of second-person address in English—the equivalent of “tu” in Spanish.

“You” was for groups—and for superiors.

This is why Quakers who used plain speech used “thee” and “thy” with other human beings, and not in addressing God or his familiars.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/16/opinion/sunday/pronouns-quakers.html?unlocked_article_code=1.nk4.whvy.pNfs_-P4R2Ii&smid=url-share