Any other clubs besides NCAP going downhill?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

Yardage is a factor. But 6 days a week at age 12 (6th grade) is a lot. Mental burnout is a factor too. Very early to specialize. Most of the good athlete I knew growing up probably played 5 sports in 6th grade. They certainly weren’t doing 1 sport 6 days a week. Being balanced and well rounded as an athlete is better than a healthy baller session to stretch the shoulders.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

+1, I’m the poster from earlier in the thread that prompted all of this debate over how many days a week my kid is in the water. I know the training my kid is doing and I fully trust the coaching staff. People are acting like my kid is in the water 2 hours a day doing 6000 yards or more with intervals that are unrealistic and that just isn’t the case. They are training appropriately for a swimmer of their age and ability. Is it more than the 12 year olds who aren’t committed to swim as their primary sport and aren’t as fast, sure, but that doesn’t make the training inappropriate. It’s what fits for them.

What NCAP site are you at? 5,000 or 6,000 for time is a regular set at Prep for the age groupers. Turns into 8-10k for Gold 1,2 kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

I don’t know what every NCAP site does, but NCAP-Burke Bronze I high-achieving 11 year olds only have an option to swim 5 nights OR 5 mornings per week, and most don’t go that often. (My swimmer was in Bronze I AM.) None go 6 days.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

+1, I’m the poster from earlier in the thread that prompted all of this debate over how many days a week my kid is in the water. I know the training my kid is doing and I fully trust the coaching staff. People are acting like my kid is in the water 2 hours a day doing 6000 yards or more with intervals that are unrealistic and that just isn’t the case. They are training appropriately for a swimmer of their age and ability. Is it more than the 12 year olds who aren’t committed to swim as their primary sport and aren’t as fast, sure, but that doesn’t make the training inappropriate. It’s what fits for them.

What NCAP site are you at? 5,000 or 6,000 for time is a regular set at Prep for the age groupers. Turns into 8-10k for Gold 1,2 kids.

We are obviously not at Prep, we are in VA. I am aware of Prep’s reputation for yardage with their high performing 11-14 year olds. I think Prep is a bit of an anomaly within the club when it comes to the yardage their age groupers do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

Yardage is a factor. But 6 days a week at age 12 (6th grade) is a lot. Mental burnout is a factor too. Very early to specialize. Most of the good athlete I knew growing up probably played 5 sports in 6th grade. They certainly weren’t doing 1 sport 6 days a week. Being balanced and well rounded as an athlete is better than a healthy baller session to stretch the shoulders.

You must not have been a swimmer in the 80s/early 90s. They ran us ragged with doubles starting in late elementary. Most of us quit by 11 or 12 or did not quit and got injured by 19/20. It was the Hunger Games.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

Yardage is a factor. But 6 days a week at age 12 (6th grade) is a lot. Mental burnout is a factor too. Very early to specialize. Most of the good athlete I knew growing up probably played 5 sports in 6th grade. They certainly weren’t doing 1 sport 6 days a week. Being balanced and well rounded as an athlete is better than a healthy baller session to stretch the shoulders.

I also grew up in the pre-specialization of youth sports era. Back then the athletic kids just played a different sport each season at a rec level. Unfortunately that just is not the current environment of youth sports. My kid started with swim as most kids do with summer league and they fell in love with the sport. Personally I found swimming a little boring (I’ve come around on it) and I tried to get them to try some other sports with a little more action but they didn’t want to. Once we started down the club path (which we did later than most) and it became apparent my kid had some talent, they got even more invested in the sport. Their best friends are other swimmers, they are together constantly both in and out of the pool, it’s a great group of focused peers. Taking them out of that to be a “more well-rounded” athlete is not the right thing for them.

[Anonymous]

I also grew up in the pre-specialization of youth sports era. Back then the athletic kids just played a different sport each season at a rec level. Unfortunately that just is not the current environment of youth sports. My kid started with swim as most kids do with summer league and they fell in love with the sport. Personally I found swimming a little boring (I’ve come around on it) and I tried to get them to try some other sports with a little more action but they didn’t want to. Once we started down the club path (which we did later than most) and it became apparent my kid had some talent, they got even more invested in the sport. Their best friends are other swimmers, they are together constantly both in and out of the pool, it’s a great group of focused peers. Taking them out of that to be a “more well-rounded” athlete is not the right thing for them.

The theory isn’t to pull your 11 year old out of swim and start another sport, it’s to put your 5 year-old into many sports and whittle down from there.

My swimmer washed out of all team sports, and the lack of athleticism is apparent and disadvantageous when facing real athletes, particularly on dives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I also grew up in the pre-specialization of youth sports era. Back then the athletic kids just played a different sport each season at a rec level. Unfortunately that just is not the current environment of youth sports. My kid started with swim as most kids do with summer league and they fell in love with the sport. Personally I found swimming a little boring (I’ve come around on it) and I tried to get them to try some other sports with a little more action but they didn’t want to. Once we started down the club path (which we did later than most) and it became apparent my kid had some talent, they got even more invested in the sport. Their best friends are other swimmers, they are together constantly both in and out of the pool, it’s a great group of focused peers. Taking them out of that to be a “more well-rounded” athlete is not the right thing for them.

The theory isn’t to pull your 11 year old out of swim and start another sport, it’s to put your 5 year-old into many sports and whittle down from there.

My swimmer washed out of all team sports, and the lack of athleticism is apparent and disadvantageous when facing real athletes, particularly on dives.
Putting a 5 year old in many organized sports also seems kind of crazy. You can’t do basketball or baseball/softball at age 5. My kid tried soccer in kindergarten, and they hated it. Started swim lessons at 7 and immediately loved it. Covid happened the year they turned 8, so there weren’t really sports options, but they did do outdoor swim at a heated pool in the fall of 2020 (my first sign that they just wanted to swim) and then stroke and turn in the winter/spring 2021. Summer swim team in 2021, and then they got the bug and had no interest in trying other sports, so we started club swim. And now here we are at 12 and they still love the sport and are committed to it. I’m not saying this is the case for every kid, but it was for mine, and that’s why I’m comfortable with the amount of time they commit to the sport.

[Anonymous]

It posted weird above so here is my response to 19:05:

Putting a 5 year old in many organized sports also seems kind of crazy. You can’t do basketball or baseball/softball at age 5. My kid tried soccer in kindergarten, and they hated it. Started swim lessons at 7 and immediately loved it. Covid happened the year they turned 8, so there weren’t really sports options, but they did do outdoor swim at a heated pool in the fall of 2020 (my first sign that they just wanted to swim) and then stroke and turn in the winter/spring 2021. Summer swim team in 2021, and then they got the bug and had no interest in trying other sports, so we started club swim. And now here we are at 12 and they still love the sport and are committed to it. I’m not saying this is the case for every kid, but it was for mine, and that’s why I’m comfortable with the amount of time they commit to the sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What is a lower cost club? I looked into my local NCAP and it was basically the same price after all the registration, fees, extras as the other clubs around- Machine, Marlins, York. Yes, AAC and RMSC are cheaper, but they don’t pay for lanes and are otherwise subsidized by the local governments, so not a fair comparison.

NCAP is almost $4,000 for the season for 11-12, correct? Marlins is about $3,000 for a comparable training group. Marlins also has so many more options for training - we don't pay nearly $3,000 at 11-12 because we're only swimming twice a week. Is that even an option with NCAP? Like I said, my kid isn't elite. I don't have a beef with NCAP. I just think it's a jackhammer and most kids just need a regular hammer.

I have a high level NCAP 11-12 swimmer and we are paying a little over $4k and my swimmer practices 5-6 days a week. For the poster that mentioned ASA, we are paying roughly the same as we would at ASA (swimmer would be an NDG swimmer there). I do agree that if you have a swimmer who isn’t fully committed to swim as their primary sport and is only in the water a few days a week it is not worth it if you have the option to join a different club that is less expensive and/or has different practice options where cost is different depending on how many days a week you practice.

A high level 11 year old should not be swimming 6 days a week. Maybe if they have gone through puberty - maybe. But that is well above the guidelines and asking for injury.

Couldn’t agree more, but NCAP is concerned with immediate returns, not long term development

It is their business model. Points and burnout.

You are so uninformed. My 12 year old swims 6 days a week for NCAP. A lot of dryland focused on core and shoulder mobility and low yardage….It is not the number of days you practice..it is the amount of yardage….

I am willing to bet there are many kids swimming way more yards than my kid who a practicing fewer days a week…and not racing nearly as fast

+1, I’m the poster from earlier in the thread that prompted all of this debate over how many days a week my kid is in the water. I know the training my kid is doing and I fully trust the coaching staff. People are acting like my kid is in the water 2 hours a day doing 6000 yards or more with intervals that are unrealistic and that just isn’t the case. They are training appropriately for a swimmer of their age and ability. Is it more than the 12 year olds who aren’t committed to swim as their primary sport and aren’t as fast, sure, but that doesn’t make the training inappropriate. It’s what fits for them.

What NCAP site are you at? 5,000 or 6,000 for time is a regular set at Prep for the age groupers. Turns into 8-10k for Gold 1,2 kids.

It is not a regular set. Stop. That is factually untrue. It keeps getting repeated, but it is false.

I'm not going to go in to the other stuff that has been spread about NCAP Prep. Everyone can have their own opinion. Our experience has been positive. Kids have loved their coaches at Prep, they've made strong bonds with teammates and there have not been big issues within their cohort. Level of toxic behavior among parents and teammates (group chats, hangouts, etc) has been far lower at Prep in our experience than with other clubs and other team sports (basketball, softball/baseball, lax, etc.) I can't speak for experiences of families of older or younger kids. May be/have been much different.

I'm sure this post will be accused of "kool-aid drinking" or whatever, but its an honest experience for this family. There may well be kool-aid drinkers here. There are certainly trolls who look to distort things.

Ultimately, I would urge anyone looking to join any program to not rely on these anonymous message boards for your truth. In our experience, coaches at many programs have been very open to provide direct feedback on their programs and what the expectations are. Talk to your Summer coaches or parents of club swimmers at your Summer pool. People will give honest feedback on their experiences. You'll probably hear good and bad things about every club. But at least you can know where the feedback is coming from and weigh what agendas might be coming from.

This board has club owners posting, head coaches posting, group coaches posting, parents posting, swimmers posting, people who have no connection to anything posting. Take everything here with a grain of salt.

I hate myself more and more every time I come here. I really should stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It posted weird above so here is my response to 19:05:

Putting a 5 year old in many organized sports also seems kind of crazy. You can’t do basketball or baseball/softball at age 5. My kid tried soccer in kindergarten, and they hated it. Started swim lessons at 7 and immediately loved it. Covid happened the year they turned 8, so there weren’t really sports options, but they did do outdoor swim at a heated pool in the fall of 2020 (my first sign that they just wanted to swim) and then stroke and turn in the winter/spring 2021. Summer swim team in 2021, and then they got the bug and had no interest in trying other sports, so we started club swim. And now here we are at 12 and they still love the sport and are committed to it. I’m not saying this is the case for every kid, but it was for mine, and that’s why I’m comfortable with the amount of time they commit to the sport.

Soccer and tee ball start at 5, 1 hour of practice and one game per week. Crazy.

Basketball starts in 1st grade. Also 2 hrs per week. Also crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I hate myself more and more every time I come here. I really should stop.

Plus 1000000000000000000

This page is a cesspool that we can not stop jumping in