Things I can’t say IRL. I am in a DV group for women

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

You sound really nasty and off for someone who works in the field of DV. Anyone who works in this area or any mental health field can appreciate there are challenges like the ones in this post.

I'm not nasty. I'm annoyed that someone who is in a support group feels it necessary to be judge and jury to someone else also in that support group and think they're the expert in someone else's life. Yes, I'm someone who works in the field of DV, and I know the ins and outs of the complexities of abuse and victimization and how that manifests. What I don't do is decide that someone's story is suspect and post it on the internet so that people who already don't believe DV victims now have reason to be more suspect. Posts like this harm DV victims and do nothing to even help the OP.

Sorry, reading through these posts, but where did OP post someone’s story on the internet and then say it was a lie? What are you talking about??

"It" = her decision that someone's story is suspect. You understood.

Look, good for you all. Have at it. I'll exit the thread so you can all pile on to DV victims (ironically). Have a good time. I'll let my comments stand so that if someone is out there reading this thread, at least they'll see my counterpoints. That not all service providers and attendee at a support group are going to call them manipulative liars behind their backs if literally every part of their story doesn't line up, or however OP phrased it.

Enjoy.

[Anonymous]

What is a DV group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

You sound really nasty and off for someone who works in the field of DV. Anyone who works in this area or any mental health field can appreciate there are challenges like the ones in this post.

I'm not nasty. I'm annoyed that someone who is in a support group feels it necessary to be judge and jury to someone else also in that support group and think they're the expert in someone else's life. Yes, I'm someone who works in the field of DV, and I know the ins and outs of the complexities of abuse and victimization and how that manifests. What I don't do is decide that someone's story is suspect and post it on the internet so that people who already don't believe DV victims now have reason to be more suspect. Posts like this harm DV victims and do nothing to even help the OP.

Sorry, reading through these posts, but where did OP post someone’s story on the internet and then say it was a lie? What are you talking about??

"It" = her decision that someone's story is suspect. You understood.

Look, good for you all. Have at it. I'll exit the thread so you can all pile on to DV victims (ironically). Have a good time. I'll let my comments stand so that if someone is out there reading this thread, at least they'll see my counterpoints. That not all service providers and attendee at a support group are going to call them manipulative liars behind their backs if literally every part of their story doesn't line up, or however OP phrased it.

Enjoy.

Huh? Op didn’t post anyone’s story. And no one ever said EVERY SINGLE PIECE OF a story must line up perfectly for someone to be believed. Everyone in this world knows that memory, especially trauma induced memory, is not perfect or linear. But that’s not what this post is about, and you taking a point to illogical extremes doesn’t change that or make you correct.

Please reconsider your current involvement with DV victims. This reactionary manner and uncontrolled anger is the last thing needed in this world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

You sound really nasty and off for someone who works in the field of DV. Anyone who works in this area or any mental health field can appreciate there are challenges like the ones in this post.

I'm not nasty. I'm annoyed that someone who is in a support group feels it necessary to be judge and jury to someone else also in that support group and think they're the expert in someone else's life. Yes, I'm someone who works in the field of DV, and I know the ins and outs of the complexities of abuse and victimization and how that manifests. What I don't do is decide that someone's story is suspect and post it on the internet so that people who already don't believe DV victims now have reason to be more suspect. Posts like this harm DV victims and do nothing to even help the OP.

Who is judge and jury? Huh? Ironic that you’re upset for someone allegedly rushing to judgement- although you really have no idea what the story is- as you then… rush to judgement.

If you truly work in this field, I suggest you consider taking a break. You’re not suited for it and/or you’ve built up too much anger and stress to be effective.

My default is to not judge someone's victimization story, especially if I'm there for the same help, and decide that they're liars. If that means I'm not built for this work, so be it. I'm "judging" OP based on her own words. She's decided for herself that 10 percent of her support group are liars. How is this helpful to put out on a message board? We can't verify that, right? No one knows who's in this group, and what her evidence is, despite the question being posed what made her say that.

DV victims already face an uphill battle. She's adding to it. So yeah, I'm going to push back on that because this post is unnecessary. She could have asked how to control disruptive behavior, but she didn't. She's calling them manipulative liars. I take issue with that. She can't know that any more than we can, or what's truly going on for them, and it's adding fuel to an already raging fire DV victims face.

You immediately went to histrionics and name calling. I suspect you don’t just ‘work’ in DV but are a victim yourself with a lot of unresolved baggage and defensiveness. Good luck to you.

I know a lot of people who have training in this world and they would totally understand OPs post which btw did not identify anyone or anything and was rather measured in expressing frustration anyone who works in this field has experienced.

I didn't call anyone any names, and I have zero histrionics in any post (but you keep saying that. I wonder why.) I disagree that calling people manipulative liars in a DV support is "measured frustration."

One of the biggest issues DV victims face is being "imperfect." Services only want to serve the "perfect victim." And this thread shows why they are reluctant to come forward if not deemed "perfect."

I know you think you insulted me by calling me a DV victim with unresolved baggage, but that didn't land with me. I wouldn't consider that an insult but find it interesting that you thought it would.

That seems to be an outdated viewpoint. What agencies do you mean? I have connections to a number of them that provide various services and I’ve never known any of them to ‘screen’ victims claims or expect anything in terms of perfection. Reactive abuse is a well known phenomenon in this area.
Did an agency reject you for services? Curious which one.

Re you’re having unresolved issues, that wasn’t an insult, merely a fact. You said you ‘work in DV’. And as mentioned earlier, that seems to be a misrepresentation in that you don’t strike me as a professional working in this space, but rather someone still working through their own issues. The problem with this is that people who are still fresh in the process are often still extremely reactive.

Good luck to you.

[Anonymous]

Say it in real life OP. What’s the problem? I don’t get it.

[Anonymous]

Maybe histrionics are attracted to abusers? Abuse could still be real.

I’m sure that No one would believe that when I was like 10 I saw my dad throw my sister up against a wall and punch her in the stomach. That’s what I thought about when I read your post.

[Anonymous]

I used to work at a DV shelter. I reached the same conclusion, OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe histrionics are attracted to abusers? Abuse could still be real.

I’m sure that No one would believe that when I was like 10 I saw my dad throw my sister up against a wall and punch her in the stomach. That’s what I thought about when I read your post.

Of course people would believe you! They should. And I’m sorry that you witnessed that.

But imagine if, at the next support group, you say you haven’t seen your dad since you were 7. Now what do you expect people to think?

[Anonymous]

If you are feeling like this OP it would definitely be in your best interest to find another support group to join.

Otherwise you may not benefit too greatly from your current one.

Good luck! 👍🏽

[Anonymous]

I am a lawyer who comes from a family of lawyers and work with lawyers, etc.

The consensus is that sometimes the man is the aggressor, sometimes the woman is the aggressor yet she blames the man, and sometimes both are equally combative. I won’t go into details because I’m sure many clients might stumble on this post and recognize their crazy violent stories. Think: trying to run over your husband while taking his car…I’ll stop there.

Re: the OP - Any group like that will draw people stuck in victimhood, so I’m not dismissing your observation. I believe it. But it’s also human nature to judge others more harshly than yourself. Ever wonder what others think about you? I would just be pleasant around everyone. That doesn’t mean you need to be overly friendly—just don’t be rude or stand-offish.

And perhaps work on extricating yourself from the group as soon as you feel comfortable. You will be better served focused on forward-thinking resilience than dwelling on victimhood. Even if the group doesn’t focus on stories of abuse and is more focused on daily struggles, focusing on the negative won’t help as much as other activities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are feeling like this OP it would definitely be in your best interest to find another support group to join.

Otherwise you may not benefit too greatly from your current one.

Good luck! 👍🏽

It seems you haven’t followed the posts. And this is a not uncommon feature of most groups

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a lawyer who comes from a family of lawyers and work with lawyers, etc.

The consensus is that sometimes the man is the aggressor, sometimes the woman is the aggressor yet she blames the man, and sometimes both are equally combative. I won’t go into details because I’m sure many clients might stumble on this post and recognize their crazy violent stories. Think: trying to run over your husband while taking his car…I’ll stop there.

Re: the OP - Any group like that will draw people stuck in victimhood, so I’m not dismissing your observation. I believe it. But it’s also human nature to judge others more harshly than yourself. Ever wonder what others think about you? I would just be pleasant around everyone. That doesn’t mean you need to be overly friendly—just don’t be rude or stand-offish.

And perhaps work on extricating yourself from the group as soon as you feel comfortable. You will be better served focused on forward-thinking resilience than dwelling on victimhood. Even if the group doesn’t focus on stories of abuse and is more focused on daily struggles, focusing on the negative won’t help as much as other activities.

I think people haven’t followed the chain.

And yes, both men and women can be abusers or there can be mutual toxicity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe histrionics are attracted to abusers? Abuse could still be real.

I’m sure that No one would believe that when I was like 10 I saw my dad throw my sister up against a wall and punch her in the stomach. That’s what I thought about when I read your post.

Of course people would believe you! They should. And I’m sorry that you witnessed that.

But imagine if, at the next support group, you say you haven’t seen your dad since you were 7. Now what do you expect people to think?

Exactly. This is the sort of thing. Nonsensical and outlandish claims. These spaces are not meant to be judgmental or ‘gotcha’ but it can also be confusing or disruptive to others. And many of these people are heavy users of services, with many demands and it can feel exhausting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Have you considered that you can both be abused AND be abusive all in the same relationship.

Of course. There is a significant percentage of people in the DV support world who have engaged in reactive abuse. This is why many many DV orgs do NOT advocate for mandatory arrest DV laws and similar. We know that it can be hard to establish who was the perpetrator in a situation, and women have been swept up in unfair arrests.

But that’s not the point of this post. At all.

What is “reactive abuse” though? A woman screaming at her DH then her DH punching her has not engaged in “reactive abuse.” I don’t think that’s what OP is talking about.

I think the extremely attenuated definition of “abuse” is possibly what may be leading to an uptick of the type of woman OP is talking about, claiming victim status based on a TikTok definition of abuse. Just like there has been a proliferation of self-diagnosis in other areas based on social media …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

DV to the point you join a DV support group should be serious - not “my DH is a big jerk.” Yes usually involving severe physical or mental abuse/control. My xDH did some minor abusice stuff but nowhere near the level of serious abuse such that I would label myself an “victim.”

You can't be serious. Who decides this? You? I mean, good for you. Label yourself whatever you want, no one is going to tell you what to do, but you don't get to decide that for anyone else.
I can't believe the crap I'm seeing on this thread.

You seem to be struggling with context and words. I don’t think this poster is saying she personally decides who ‘gets to be’ in a support group, but yes, people are entitled to their opinions and perceptions. You seem to be vehement in demanding people agree and support the DV experiences of others, no matter how fantastical they might present, yet you continually deny posters on here from expressing their own views. It’s an interesting hypocrisy

She said if you want to join a DV support group, you should only do so if it's serious. Of course she doesn't literally get to decide, but she sure is passing judgement. I can form an opinion too. Right? And my opinion is that that's BS to say that. That's objectively offensive. What else did I say? Good for her, she can decide for herself. See how that works?

PP here. If I went to a DV group based on my exDH being a big jerk who grabbed my phone out of my hand (once) and a few other low level things … that would be absurd. I know people actually sent to the hospital by their husbands or regularly hit, threatened to be shot, etc.