Things I can’t say IRL. I am in a DV group for women

[Anonymous]

You are describing my sister in law.

She experienced a lot of abuse and trauma as a child / adolescent. She has a vicitm mentality and likely has a personality disorder.

As a adult, she is the abuser. But she always feels justified in that abuse - if people just did things differently, she wouldn't be so angry and frustrated and lash out at them.

She would still tell you she is the victim as her only persepctive is that of a victim. She is a terror with a major anger management problem and a viscious and mean streak that she takes out on others where she will say the cruelest things she can in the moment.

My brother and their kids are the most passive, quiet people. They live their lives walking on eggshells, waiting for the next attack. In between she is sweet and kind and then wonders why my brother and the kids are still distant.

I know many on here will argue it isn't possible for a woman to be abusive and they are always only reactive to being abused by men and therefore they are only victims but it just isn't true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are you seeing them as exaggerating as a way of minimizing the trauma of your experience? To avoid confronting it in its full reality or to avoid feeling weak?

Unclear. Likely they have mental health issues. We are a very supportive group and we typically don’t vet people as we feel people are entitled to their perspective and their experiences, but these are extreme cases where it quickly becomes apparent that there is something very off about them and their claims.

Immediate PP above, this came through while I was writing my post. Disruption is one thing. The level of analysis you think you know about them and their histories and how they experience potential abuse is another. Instead of deciding they're lying and are manipulative, focus on the disruptive behavior and go from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

Right, now you've explained your role and concerns, I understand you. Yes, as a support group that's open to everyone, you WILL get occasional cranks. That's what they are. You need to accept that it's the cost of doing business, OP. Maybe if you come up with a formal plan to manage such people, alert other support groups in your community, it will make the interactions slightly less unpleasant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are describing my sister in law.

She experienced a lot of abuse and trauma as a child / adolescent. She has a vicitm mentality and likely has a personality disorder.

As a adult, she is the abuser. But she always feels justified in that abuse - if people just did things differently, she wouldn't be so angry and frustrated and lash out at them.

She would still tell you she is the victim as her only persepctive is that of a victim. She is a terror with a major anger management problem and a viscious and mean streak that she takes out on others where she will say the cruelest things she can in the moment.

My brother and their kids are the most passive, quiet people. They live their lives walking on eggshells, waiting for the next attack. In between she is sweet and kind and then wonders why my brother and the kids are still distant.

I know many on here will argue it isn't possible for a woman to be abusive and they are always only reactive to being abused by men and therefore they are only victims but it just isn't true.

This sounds a lot like my SIL & brother. Question: if the brother was part of the family dynamic of abuse this person lived through as a child/adolescent (as my brothers did, well into adulthood) was the sister (with the undiagnosed "personality disorder" that you haven't named), lashing out or did the sister ask for a boundary to be set and/or the abusive patterns to stop? This went down in my family - I asked for abusive behavior to stop (my brother & SIL might very well call this "victim behavior") & while I may not have done so gracefully I felt I had to do so. Response was gaslighting -- this never happened, we never acted cruelly to you. However, with public naming of the behavior, the nastiness did stop. Worth it from my POV - if I hadn't raised I would have been expected to quietly swallow ongoing ugliness (like public insults, ignoring of life milestones like my 40th bday etc). Now none - just distance, which existed before. Both ways, would have had distant relationships with my brothers/SIL. I am not wondering why we are distant. I am just grateful for the respite. To be fair, I bet the PP is not my SIL because no one in my family is passive or quiet lol. And neither my kids nor my nieces/nephews walk on eggshells around me. But the PP got me thinking.

I think my situation & also the OPs where victims of abuse are then held to a higher standard than others -- or where the fallout from abuse itself can cause people to struggle later -- is then turned on the victim. Like my own brother, who does think I was bullied as a child/teen & his reaction is that this made me oversensitive. Maybe the language like the PP before - that this gave me a "victim mentality." It's interesting -- that one can acknowledge that someone suffered from unfair behavior, then there were consequences, and the focus then is on the victim for not being tough enough and/or not having empathy for them.

[Anonymous]

Why can't you say this in real life?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I’ve come to believe a not insubstantial number of these women - maybe 10 percent overall- are the abusive ones themselves and/or lying or exaggerating about their abuse. There is a real strain of histrionics with some of them and it makes my skin crawl. They have found supportive groups like the one I’m in where they can feel validated and wrap themselves in victimhood, ignoring any personal accountability for their lives.

I dont know how to deal with them in our group events. Ignore?

Ignore. The tendency toward histrionics means you will get more trouble than it is worth if you try to deal with it.

It’s a shame if they are ruining the ability of the other people in the group to get support though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s entirely possible you’re right OP. I think any self-help group has some fakers in it. Just try to ignore them.

Not fakers, just mentally ill people vying for attention. Which also doesn’t mean they weren’t abused at some point - people like that are a magnet for manipulators.

[Anonymous]

Support groups for mental health are very dangerous.

Support groups are good when you can share concrete helpful advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

What do you do in the DV world? I’d assume you’d appreciate most people in it well know of non physical DV. And yes, I’m entitled to feel frustrated by people who seem to misrepresent themselves in a setting where people are fragile and confused. I’m certainly not calling them liars to their faces, but I’m entitled to my feelings and experience just as anyone else is. Support groups do attract people like this unfortunately and it is important to think about how to handle these issues. No, not the underlying story they are putting forth, but how their behaviors affect others currently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

Right, now you've explained your role and concerns, I understand you. Yes, as a support group that's open to everyone, you WILL get occasional cranks. That's what they are. You need to accept that it's the cost of doing business, OP. Maybe if you come up with a formal plan to manage such people, alert other support groups in your community, it will make the interactions slightly less unpleasant.

That was the entire point of the original post. What to do. I would not go so far as to alert other groups, but we do need to consider how to handle these people. Gently suggest more involved care, mental health support?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My experience isn't made up, OP. But I have also been abusive, as a response to his abuse. There comes a point in a toxic relationship where it brings you down to the same level. You can't always go high, because sometimes you're cornered and you need to fight (verbally or physically).

I know two women who lied about being abused by their relatives or their spouse. They were both in full-blown paranoid episodes stemming from psychiatric treatment refusal. They both had a bipolar disorder diagnoses. Maybe there was also something else going on, who knows. Psychiatry is not an exact science and there is still plenty we don't know.

I also note that "abuse" encompasses a great many things, minor and/or major. Some humans verbalize or otherwise exteriorize their feelings a lot more than others.

***There is little relation between how much a person expresses their pain and how much pain they actually felt!***

And there is no way to know.

So we should focus on the path to economic and psychiatric recovery. Both are quantifiable, objective measures. It's all we can do.

welll …. I’d argue that if you think it was a “mutual abuse” situation, you shouldn’t be in a DV groups for women who may geniunely fear for their lives and experienced much more severe abuse. This isn’t to say that fighting back at times means the woman wasn’t the victim or that she has to be perfect. But it does mean that if you didn’t experience actual domination and control you should bow out of a DV group.

My exEH engaged in some “mild” abusive behavior (grabbing my phone, blocking me from leaving, one time when he followed me around a mall demanding an apology). And a lot of lower key control through escalating verbal tactics. But I’m not a “DV victim” and would never join a DV group for women actual beaten by their partners.

DV is far, far more than being "actually beaten" by their partners. Come on, we know this. That is not the threshold and it causes harm to suggest that unless you are "actually beaten" you aren't experiencing abuse or other types of violence.
That may be OP's mindset, which is causing this reaction, I don't know. I don't know the intricacies of anyone's abuse story, and neither does OP.
I find it incredibly distasteful for OP to decide she knows this to such a degree she would post about it. Focus on yourself. If group work doesn't work for you, do individual work. But you don't get to control other people's stories, healing, even perspective on their own lives.

I am op and I am well versed in DV and all of its factors, including non violent Dv and coercive control, as well as legislative efforts in this area. If you know the community, you might know many DV orgs do not advocate criminalizing CC for reasons that go beyond the scope of this conversation. Please don’t make assumptions. You are flat out wrong.

And I’m a core resource in this group and it is something me and others, including the founder, are struggling with. Surely you don’t mean to say that we should all walk away from this important work.

What are you hoping to achieve here? Of course people don't know that about you. It's an anonymous board for crying out loud. I work in the field of DV, so yes, I know, which of course you wouldn't know either, because This. Is. An. Anonymous. Board.

Do whatever you want. If they're disruptive, kick them out. But you don't get to decide what their story is any more than you want them judging you for yours. Posts like this don't help the DV cause one bit. No one is going to solve this issue for you, and all you're doing is discrediting other DV survivors by posting here and all your replies. What do you want anyone to do here?

You sound really nasty and off for someone who works in the field of DV. Anyone who works in this area or any mental health field can appreciate there are challenges like the ones in this post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Support groups for mental health are very dangerous.

Support groups are good when you can share concrete helpful advice.

Dv support is not the same

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are describing my sister in law.

She experienced a lot of abuse and trauma as a child / adolescent. She has a vicitm mentality and likely has a personality disorder.

As a adult, she is the abuser. But she always feels justified in that abuse - if people just did things differently, she wouldn't be so angry and frustrated and lash out at them.

She would still tell you she is the victim as her only persepctive is that of a victim. She is a terror with a major anger management problem and a viscious and mean streak that she takes out on others where she will say the cruelest things she can in the moment.

My brother and their kids are the most passive, quiet people. They live their lives walking on eggshells, waiting for the next attack. In between she is sweet and kind and then wonders why my brother and the kids are still distant.

I know many on here will argue it isn't possible for a woman to be abusive and they are always only reactive to being abused by men and therefore they are only victims but it just isn't true.

This sounds a lot like my SIL & brother. Question: if the brother was part of the family dynamic of abuse this person lived through as a child/adolescent (as my brothers did, well into adulthood) was the sister (with the undiagnosed "personality disorder" that you haven't named), lashing out or did the sister ask for a boundary to be set and/or the abusive patterns to stop? This went down in my family - I asked for abusive behavior to stop (my brother & SIL might very well call this "victim behavior") & while I may not have done so gracefully I felt I had to do so. Response was gaslighting -- this never happened, we never acted cruelly to you. However, with public naming of the behavior, the nastiness did stop. Worth it from my POV - if I hadn't raised I would have been expected to quietly swallow ongoing ugliness (like public insults, ignoring of life milestones like my 40th bday etc). Now none - just distance, which existed before. Both ways, would have had distant relationships with my brothers/SIL. I am not wondering why we are distant. I am just grateful for the respite. To be fair, I bet the PP is not my SIL because no one in my family is passive or quiet lol. And neither my kids nor my nieces/nephews walk on eggshells around me. But the PP got me thinking.

I think my situation & also the OPs where victims of abuse are then held to a higher standard than others -- or where the fallout from abuse itself can cause people to struggle later -- is then turned on the victim. Like my own brother, who does think I was bullied as a child/teen & his reaction is that this made me oversensitive. Maybe the language like the PP before - that this gave me a "victim mentality." It's interesting -- that one can acknowledge that someone suffered from unfair behavior, then there were consequences, and the focus then is on the victim for not being tough enough and/or not having empathy for them.

My brother wasn't present for any of this. My sister in law is married to my brother. They grew up in different countries and met as young adults. When they met, my sister in law was just getting out of the abusive household and my brother who was very stable at the time thought he could help her. No one denies my sister in law the abuse she suffered and we have supported her in getting trauma therapy. However she has been incredibly abuse to my brother and one of their kids. I have no doubt her own abuse as a child / teen is a contributing factor but no one in my family has ever been abusive. My brother already had a quiet personality but has become pretty much a shell after living with his wife. My sister in law has not experienced abuse since leaving home and meeting my brother and moving away from her own family. Many people who abuse others were also abused however that can't be an excuse that allows them to harm more people.