Competitive academics - what to tell the smart, hard-working kid who isn't "the best"

[Anonymous]

Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

+1. OP, it sounds like you’re doing a great job telling your kid this. But the assumption that all of these kids are “winning” only because they work harder does make it sound like you are not fully at peace with this either. Though I do think most of us here do struggle with this too…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

This is weird DCUM word salad.

First, you are literally comparing students and saying some are smarter and then saying "comparison is silly." That's meaningless. If some kids are being recognized as better for certain skill sets, you can say "comparison is silly" until you are blue in the face and your kid will know you are lying because they live in a world where comparison is prevalent and meaningful. Yes, their world is narrow right now. It still exists. And comparison is forced upon these kids.

Second, we're talking about a kid who gets great grades, makes honor roll, and receives awards for excellence in a couple areas where they really excel. That kid is not academically average. They are only average if you are only looking at the subset of kids who actually care about and work at academics, which is not the majority of kids. That kid is above average academically. They may not be a superstar, but hey aren't "average." An average kid is getting some Bs and Cs, doesn't always do their homework, but gets by and is going to graduate. They aren't winning writing awards and studying earth sciences in their free time in 10th grade.

And yes, average is okay. But when you tell a kid who is clearly academically inclined and hard working (if not some kind of genius or superstar, but clearly smart and disciplined) they are just average, what does that make the actually average kids? Some of you have no sense of perspective about all of this. You really and truly believe that if a kid isn't getting a 1600 on the SAT and getting admitted to the tippy top schools, they are just average and need to just suck it up and deal. No wonder the college boards are constantly in full meltdown mode -- your standards are psychotic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

+1. OP, it sounds like you’re doing a great job telling your kid this. But the assumption that all of these kids are “winning” only because they work harder does make it sound like you are not fully at peace with this either. Though I do think most of us here do struggle with this too…

The thing is, this is the best explanation even if it's not true.

If you tell a 15 year old "those kids are winning all the awards because they are smarter than you," it's too demoralizing. It might be true in some cases, but you can't tell a teenager who cares about this stuff that. You don't want to give your kid a reason to give up.

Also, hard work actually DOES matter. And an academically inclined kid who really, really wants to win some top academic prize (a scholarship, an honor, whatever) can do it even if they don't have the highest IQ. You absolutely can close the gap with discipline and perseverance in most cases. It's true in sports too. That doesn't mean you HAVE to put that work in -- you might decide that the amount you'd have to work in order to do as well as someone who is just inherently more talented than you isn't worth it. And that's fine. But most of the time, it is possible. In fact, among the kids who are winning all the awards, they are probably both -- inherently very intelligent/talented and also super hard working.

There's just no reason to tell a child "well yeah, those kids are just smarter than you." Especially if that child actually really cares about school and wants to pursue academics. You need to leave open the door for them. And you can do that with "okay you didn't win this time but if you really want it, you can work at it and get it." This is a no brainer to me.

[Anonymous]

There is some truth to the adage that As and Bs work for Cs and Ds. Life after college stops being an academic contest. Yes, those good grades and awards do get you places, but her other skills may be more important.

[Anonymous]

There's a disconnect for me here. Your DD is not actively gunning to be at the tippy top, yet she is upset that she's not at the tippy top?
Ummmmmmmm....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There's a disconnect for me here. Your DD is not actively gunning to be at the tippy top, yet she is upset that she's not at the tippy top?
Ummmmmmmm....

OP here. She isn't mad she's not at the tippy top. She has made a choice to approach school in a different way and is happy with her choice. She just gets down because sometimes it's hard to see classmates honored and awarded for their choices, and not get that same validation.

There is no award for "most well rounded student" or "student synthesizing some themes from Moby Dick into a pretty cool art project" or "read and understood the most unassigned science books." Individual teachers might recognize that stuff (sometimes, sometimes they don't), but there are no trophies for those kinds of things. My kid is on a different path than the more competitive kids who are gunning for Ivy admission and other very visible rewards (though she does have straight As). I think a lot of the time, she just does her thing and it's fine. She's just struggling with the end of the year awards where a kid like her doesn't get much attention, even though she's worked very hard over the course of the year, just in ways that don't result in academic awards. That's it. She's not mad she's not at the tippy top, she's just sad that in not being at the tippy top, she feels kind of invisible at the moment.

[Anonymous]

You said this about your DD:
personally think her approach to academics is a good one -- she puts in the work, including on things that are not her favorite, but then really digs in when she cares about the subject matter. I am hoping she learns that this is actually a pretty great approach to life generally! You don't need to be great at everything and there are diminishing returns to trying when you could just focus on the stuff that actually matters to you.


Do you tell her this, explicitly, about once a month, in very different ways?

Also, you can point out that SHE could be the way they are, too, if she studied ALL THE TIME (which is what they do) but that means she would have to give up writing in her journal, doing X, Y and Z that she also loves to do.

Those other kids give what she has up: they don't do after school drama, girl scouts, boy scouts, have a job, skateboard after school, go on bike rides, take walks on the weekend in the woods, etc. They only STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and go to AFTER SCHOOL PREP classes. They probably do one prep class on a weekend.

She can do this, too, but I think she doesn't want to. So there are things we give up (winning all the awards) because we want to be happy in our life, to do well in school but ALSO to have other things in our life.

Help her see this - explain, explain, point out, and talk about it. She can be dissappointed she doesn't get all those awards, but she can also understand what she would have to give up to do that - and help her see THEY are giving up, they weren't just born smart, they ALSO put in so much extra work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

This is weird DCUM word salad.

First, you are literally comparing students and saying some are smarter and then saying "comparison is silly." That's meaningless. If some kids are being recognized as better for certain skill sets, you can say "comparison is silly" until you are blue in the face and your kid will know you are lying because they live in a world where comparison is prevalent and meaningful. Yes, their world is narrow right now. It still exists. And comparison is forced upon these kids.

Second, we're talking about a kid who gets great grades, makes honor roll, and receives awards for excellence in a couple areas where they really excel. That kid is not academically average. They are only average if you are only looking at the subset of kids who actually care about and work at academics, which is not the majority of kids. That kid is above average academically. They may not be a superstar, but hey aren't "average." An average kid is getting some Bs and Cs, doesn't always do their homework, but gets by and is going to graduate. They aren't winning writing awards and studying earth sciences in their free time in 10th grade.

And yes, average is okay. But when you tell a kid who is clearly academically inclined and hard working (if not some kind of genius or superstar, but clearly smart and disciplined) they are just average, what does that make the actually average kids? Some of you have no sense of perspective about all of this. You really and truly believe that if a kid isn't getting a 1600 on the SAT and getting admitted to the tippy top schools, they are just average and need to just suck it up and deal. No wonder the college boards are constantly in full meltdown mode -- your standards are psychotic.

It’s not word salad and you seem to be incapable of realizing that comparison is silly entirely squares with the concept that some people are better and some worse than you - this will always be true and so worrying about it, being surprised at the fact, and engaging in comparing is silly. It’s safe to assume some people are smarter and some less than. That’s the point. I can’t help you anymore with this concept.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You said this about your DD:
personally think her approach to academics is a good one -- she puts in the work, including on things that are not her favorite, but then really digs in when she cares about the subject matter. I am hoping she learns that this is actually a pretty great approach to life generally! You don't need to be great at everything and there are diminishing returns to trying when you could just focus on the stuff that actually matters to you.


Do you tell her this, explicitly, about once a month, in very different ways?

Also, you can point out that SHE could be the way they are, too, if she studied ALL THE TIME (which is what they do) but that means she would have to give up writing in her journal, doing X, Y and Z that she also loves to do.

Those other kids give what she has up: they don't do after school drama, girl scouts, boy scouts, have a job, skateboard after school, go on bike rides, take walks on the weekend in the woods, etc. They only STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and go to AFTER SCHOOL PREP classes. They probably do one prep class on a weekend.

She can do this, too, but I think she doesn't want to. So there are things we give up (winning all the awards) because we want to be happy in our life, to do well in school but ALSO to have other things in our life.

Help her see this - explain, explain, point out, and talk about it. She can be dissappointed she doesn't get all those awards, but she can also understand what she would have to give up to do that - and help her see THEY are giving up, they weren't just born smart, they ALSO put in so much extra work.

OP here. I totally agree and like how you've framed it. Life is about choices. She really love the non-academic stuff she does, and doesn't want to give them up.

It will all shake out in the end. She's just in the middle of it. I'm realizing this is probably also just the start of some of the angst we will be experiencing with college admissions, since she'll be a junior next year and that's when that process really starts. So some of her sadness might be some second guessing her approach and worrying she'll be left behind. I'm confident she won't be -- she might not be applying to the same colleges as these classmates or pursuing the same careers, but that doesn't mean she's behind. Just on a different path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You said this about your DD:
personally think her approach to academics is a good one -- she puts in the work, including on things that are not her favorite, but then really digs in when she cares about the subject matter. I am hoping she learns that this is actually a pretty great approach to life generally! You don't need to be great at everything and there are diminishing returns to trying when you could just focus on the stuff that actually matters to you.


Do you tell her this, explicitly, about once a month, in very different ways?

Also, you can point out that SHE could be the way they are, too, if she studied ALL THE TIME (which is what they do) but that means she would have to give up writing in her journal, doing X, Y and Z that she also loves to do.

Those other kids give what she has up: they don't do after school drama, girl scouts, boy scouts, have a job, skateboard after school, go on bike rides, take walks on the weekend in the woods, etc. They only STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and go to AFTER SCHOOL PREP classes. They probably do one prep class on a weekend.

She can do this, too, but I think she doesn't want to. So there are things we give up (winning all the awards) because we want to be happy in our life, to do well in school but ALSO to have other things in our life.

Help her see this - explain, explain, point out, and talk about it. She can be dissappointed she doesn't get all those awards, but she can also understand what she would have to give up to do that - and help her see THEY are giving up, they weren't just born smart, they ALSO put in so much extra work.

This post reeks of racism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You said this about your DD:
personally think her approach to academics is a good one -- she puts in the work, including on things that are not her favorite, but then really digs in when she cares about the subject matter. I am hoping she learns that this is actually a pretty great approach to life generally! You don't need to be great at everything and there are diminishing returns to trying when you could just focus on the stuff that actually matters to you.


Do you tell her this, explicitly, about once a month, in very different ways?

Also, you can point out that SHE could be the way they are, too, if she studied ALL THE TIME (which is what they do) but that means she would have to give up writing in her journal, doing X, Y and Z that she also loves to do.

Those other kids give what she has up: they don't do after school drama, girl scouts, boy scouts, have a job, skateboard after school, go on bike rides, take walks on the weekend in the woods, etc. They only STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and go to AFTER SCHOOL PREP classes. They probably do one prep class on a weekend.

She can do this, too, but I think she doesn't want to. So there are things we give up (winning all the awards) because we want to be happy in our life, to do well in school but ALSO to have other things in our life.

Help her see this - explain, explain, point out, and talk about it. She can be dissappointed she doesn't get all those awards, but she can also understand what she would have to give up to do that - and help her see THEY are giving up, they weren't just born smart, they ALSO put in so much extra work.

OP here. I totally agree and like how you've framed it. Life is about choices. She really love the non-academic stuff she does, and doesn't want to give them up.

It will all shake out in the end. She's just in the middle of it. I'm realizing this is probably also just the start of some of the angst we will be experiencing with college admissions, since she'll be a junior next year and that's when that process really starts. So some of her sadness might be some second guessing her approach and worrying she'll be left behind. I'm confident she won't be -- she might not be applying to the same colleges as these classmates or pursuing the same careers, but that doesn't mean she's behind. Just on a different path.

It’s okay to struggle. That’s part of life. It’s okay to sit in the discomfort and feel it. Sitting in it will help her in the future rather than trying to say anything to take it away.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op, the reality is - and you’re not going to like this - some of those kids are just smarter. They don’t have to work as hard. Particularly the ones also excelling at sports. They aren’t “winning” because they’re doing so much more. This isn’t all of those kids, but a chunk. The lesson is that there is always going to be someone smarter than you, better than you, richer than you, someone less smart, less gifted, less affluent. Comparison is silly. Success is not pie, someone having some doesn’t mean you can’t have any. Sure it may for these honors right now, but not in any big picture sense. Let her make peace with being average. Average is okay.

This is weird DCUM word salad.

First, you are literally comparing students and saying some are smarter and then saying "comparison is silly." That's meaningless. If some kids are being recognized as better for certain skill sets, you can say "comparison is silly" until you are blue in the face and your kid will know you are lying because they live in a world where comparison is prevalent and meaningful. Yes, their world is narrow right now. It still exists. And comparison is forced upon these kids.

Second, we're talking about a kid who gets great grades, makes honor roll, and receives awards for excellence in a couple areas where they really excel. That kid is not academically average. They are only average if you are only looking at the subset of kids who actually care about and work at academics, which is not the majority of kids. That kid is above average academically. They may not be a superstar, but hey aren't "average." An average kid is getting some Bs and Cs, doesn't always do their homework, but gets by and is going to graduate. They aren't winning writing awards and studying earth sciences in their free time in 10th grade.

And yes, average is okay. But when you tell a kid who is clearly academically inclined and hard working (if not some kind of genius or superstar, but clearly smart and disciplined) they are just average, what does that make the actually average kids? Some of you have no sense of perspective about all of this. You really and truly believe that if a kid isn't getting a 1600 on the SAT and getting admitted to the tippy top schools, they are just average and need to just suck it up and deal. No wonder the college boards are constantly in full meltdown mode -- your standards are psychotic.

It’s not word salad and you seem to be incapable of realizing that comparison is silly entirely squares with the concept that some people are better and some worse than you - this will always be true and so worrying about it, being surprised at the fact, and engaging in comparing is silly. It’s safe to assume some people are smarter and some less than. That’s the point. I can’t help you anymore with this concept.

You are determined to frame it as a hierarchy though, and it's not. It's not even accurate to say that the kids at the tippy top are smarter than those a little below them. Some would argue it's smarter to invest more energy in things you love and not put all your energy and effort into getting into a super competitive college, where even incredibly high achieving kids are regularly rejected. Other people will argue that it's the kids who are good enough academically while really developing soft skills who are "smartest" because while top grades and test scores can get you into good colleges, they will not on their own get you great jobs or promotions. And so on. There are many, many kinds of smart, and the way you avoid the comparison game is not by ranking everyone and making peace with your rank, but understanding any ranking is only going to measure people along one or a handful of metrics, and it's not the be all and end all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You said this about your DD:
personally think her approach to academics is a good one -- she puts in the work, including on things that are not her favorite, but then really digs in when she cares about the subject matter. I am hoping she learns that this is actually a pretty great approach to life generally! You don't need to be great at everything and there are diminishing returns to trying when you could just focus on the stuff that actually matters to you.


Do you tell her this, explicitly, about once a month, in very different ways?

Also, you can point out that SHE could be the way they are, too, if she studied ALL THE TIME (which is what they do) but that means she would have to give up writing in her journal, doing X, Y and Z that she also loves to do.

Those other kids give what she has up: they don't do after school drama, girl scouts, boy scouts, have a job, skateboard after school, go on bike rides, take walks on the weekend in the woods, etc. They only STUDY, STUDY, STUDY and go to AFTER SCHOOL PREP classes. They probably do one prep class on a weekend.

She can do this, too, but I think she doesn't want to. So there are things we give up (winning all the awards) because we want to be happy in our life, to do well in school but ALSO to have other things in our life.

Help her see this - explain, explain, point out, and talk about it. She can be dissappointed she doesn't get all those awards, but she can also understand what she would have to give up to do that - and help her see THEY are giving up, they weren't just born smart, they ALSO put in so much extra work.

This post reeks of racism

No, it doesn't. But your post does a good job telling us which racial stereotypes you buy into. We don't know the races of any of the kids in question, and neither do you (but you think you do).

[Anonymous]

You could just move to a worse school system. Nary a mention of academic honors here even though there are a small subset of children who earn them.

It's like they don't want to hurt the other kids' feelings. Everyone's a winner.