Penny pincher DD wants to study in Europe

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, the daughter is not a US citizen or green card holder?

Most likely she has dual citizenship with the U.S. and the parents home country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where does she plan to practice medicine?

In the US. The plan is to apply for residence here.

If that falls through, would she be willing to practice in the home country or another country that imports doctors?

no, not really. she doesn't hate it, but very much prefers to work and live in the US. she is a bit of a miser, and obviously, the cost of schooling is very significant even if she weren't. it's also a shorter program (6 years total) that starts after high school, with only one admissions cycle.

Is she certain she can get a residency in the US? It seems hard to believe she’d be 6 years past high school and be allowed. Or that those credentials would “count” in the US

yes, be careful with this.

It's been eons ago (DH is 55), but he immigrated to US with MD/PhD. A med school friend of his is a radiologist in San Diego, but he moved a few years later, and whatever body it is that certifies credentials changed the status of their med school for that one cohort (it was an "experimental" program for that group) and he was missing a few classes in order to practice as an MD here. He's a research scientist, loves the job, but clearly the salary of his friend in California is much, much higher

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, the daughter is not a US citizen or green card holder?

Most likely she has dual citizenship with the U.S. and the parents home country.

no, just the US citizen, but tuition is still peanuts compared to US

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In the same position ---problem is socially its a huge change, misses out on the US dating /friend scene...Eastern Europe here...my son is a str8 A student with the most rigorous courses in HS currently,so could get into very good us college...*depending on sat

hi there, so it's a very similar situation. everyone in HS, including some not so great students, is excited about college, brand names, whatever, some of which she could likely get in, and this sound like a step down.. nobody has heard of this. but then, if the goal is to be a doctor, it kinda makes sense i guess...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do you have any trusted family there who will keep an eye on whether she's struggling or needs help?

grandparents

[Anonymous]

I second the suggestion to check out the student doctor site.

I know very little about this but assume her odds of matching for a residency are higher than those for most FMGs (foreign medical grads) because she is an American citizen. Hospital would not have to sponsor her for an employment visa.

[Anonymous]

It is easier from a social perspective for other cultures to do this than eastern Europeans..we dont have the social/marriage networks like some other cultures..it can be alienating==that is my concern.

[Anonymous]

In most of the world, medicine is an undergraduate degree.

Is she fluent in the language to the level of being able to study medicine in it (i. e. is she fully bilingual)? Does she realize that she will have to take the full set of exams for foreign medical graduates in English and even if she does well she will still be disadvantaged compared to domestic medical school grads when she looks for residency? Because foreign medical graduates always are, even if they are Americans?

If the answer to all of these questions is yes, and she always wanted to be a doctor, let her do it.

[Anonymous]

I think it’s a great idea! I worked with a couple physicians educated in Croatia and one who completed medical school in Poland. They all did their residencies in the USA and went onto have prestigious careers here.

Many of the brightest minds in medical research are from around the globe. Most of the world educates physicians directly from the time of college entry. It works well.

Your daughter will have more flexibility in her life since she will begin working debt free. It’s hard to emphasize what a huge asset that is. In the future, if she has children or an interest in a less lucrative specialty she can enjoy those things while others grind away their youth under the weight of the almighty dollar. Smart move. Very smart!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In most of the world, medicine is an undergraduate degree.

Is she fluent in the language to the level of being able to study medicine in it (i. e. is she fully bilingual)? Does she realize that she will have to take the full set of exams for foreign medical graduates in English and even if she does well she will still be disadvantaged compared to domestic medical school grads when she looks for residency? Because foreign medical graduates always are, even if they are Americans?

If the answer to all of these questions is yes, and she always wanted to be a doctor, let her do it.

If she is personable she has a better chance as an FMG to get a residency than as an american undergrad to get into medical school....

[Anonymous]

It would be great opportunity for her to experience another country. She might not come back here, although her parents did the same thing i.e moved away from their parents.

[Anonymous]

following up--what did she decide?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would not advise you. It is very hard to get residency for foreign educated (even you pass all the exams). She might look into like NYU or other schools that have low tuition for doctors.

in 2023, 67% got matched:

https://www.intealth.org/Match2023Infographic.pdf?utm_source=website&utm_medium=infographic&utm_campaign=match2023

This is probably the floor, since it doesn't include the match after the scramble (or the SOAP or whatever it's called now). Even more matches are made at that time.

OP, I would 100% let her do this. It's similar to the system in India, and in terms of the ability of the physicians, there are no differences between the ones that went to school here, and the ones that went elsewhere. On the odd chance that she doesn't match in her residency, she will have to work a year (cannot practice medicine, but can and should work in a clinical environment), pass her USMLE Step 3 during that year, and re-apply. Her odds of getting a match will go up simply because she passed Step 3.

Where I feel there is a significant drawback to being a foreign graduate, is when it comes which residencies you will match with. By and large, foreign graduates will not be competitive for the most sought after residencies (plastics, neuro, derm, etc.) so she would essentially have to be content with something like emergency medicine, internal medicine, family medicine, etc.

Are you sure about that? There was that report out in 2016 about problems with Indian medical schools, and then there is the more recent uproar about the USMLE board revoking the scores for those caught cheating.

It is absolutely true that India produces some fabulous physicians. But the brand is getting tarnished as the merit claims are being demonstrably diluted by fraud, bribery, and cheating. I do think this is going to take years to play out and re-settle, and OP's daughter would likely be caught int he fallout that is developing right now.

How bad are most of India’s medical schools? Very, according to new reports.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/04/21/how-bad-are-most-of-indias-medical-schools-very-according-to-new-reports/

That is a suspicion that underlies other investigations, too. A four-month-long probe by Reuters found that since 2010, "at least 69 Indian medical colleges and teaching hospitals have been accused of such transgressions or other significant failings, including rigging entrance exams or accepting bribes to admit students," and that "one out of every six of the country’s 398 medical schools has been accused of cheating, according to Indian government records and court filings."
...
Private medical colleges have proliferated rapidly in India. When in 1980 there were around 100 public colleges and 11 private, the latter now outnumber the former by 215 to 183. Most are run by businessmen with no medical experience. Last January, the British Medical Journal found that many private medical colleges charged "capitation" fees, which are essentially compulsory donations required for admission.

US Board Discloses Cheating, Grads Say Problem Is Rampant
https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/us-board-discloses-cheating-grads-say-problem-rampant-2024a10002aj?form=fpf

Ahmad Ozair, MD, an IMG from Lucknow, Uttar Pradesh, India, said that he has come across many groups online sharing or selling USMLE recalls. He first became suspicious when he saw several students, all from a few medical schools in Nepal, posting on social media about scoring in the 270 and 280-plus range.

"The statistical probability that you would have three or more candidates in the same year, scoring in the 99th percentile worldwide, belonging to a small geographical area is extremely low."

Ozair, who now is studying public health at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, Maryland, said that the issue is important for "all stakeholders" who care about patient safety: "Would you want a doctor who has cheated on the medical licensing exam to take care of you?"

[Anonymous]

^^Even if OP's daughter is going through eastern Europe, rather than India, the concern about FMG training and testing is spreading. It's not that this can't be done well, but it is a risk that anyone considering external training should consider.

[Anonymous]

I would make sure it works out in terms of requirements, actually being able to do a residency in the US after. Is this easy to do? I thought there was a matching process for residency.