Navigating College Admissions: Avoiding Disadvantage for Multiracial (Asian/White) Applicants in Virginia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How will XXX College consider ethnicity when the application does not include ethnicity? How are they supposed to know that "Kevin Santos" is Filipino and ethnically 75% Chinese? You're starting to sound like you're battling ghosts and shadows.

It’s the esssys ppl….
Have you not read the prompts this year? Wtf….so clueless.

Sure. Now, instead of pushing a button and getting a list of URM students with acceptable vigor, GPA, SATs, now they have to read all 80,000 applications and then NOT RECORD the evidence.

You sound super paranoid

[Anonymous]

According to the Supreme Court oral aguments, it's all based on self reporting - you can claim to be an Octoroon and check off black - nobody is going to force you to take a genetic ancestry test to prove it.

Remember, race (like gender, apparently) is just a social construct:

=-=

Exchange between Justice Samuel Alito and NC’s Solicitor General, Ryan Park. (He was one of three advocates who spoke on behalf of UNC):

JUSTICE ALITO: So let’s say the student has one grandparent who falls within that class. Can the student claim to be a member of an underrepresented minority?

MR. PARK: Yes, we rely on — on self-reporting. And — and we don’t give any

JUSTICE ALITO: All right. One great grandparent.

MR. PARK: If that person believes that that is the accurate expression of their identity, I don’t think there would be any –

JUSTICE ALITO: One –

MR. PARK: — problem.

JUSTICE ALITO: — great-great

grandparent? Are you going to make me continue to go on?

MR. PARK: Right, right, right. I think that as we go on, I agree that it would seem less plausible that that person would feel that this is actually capturing my true racial identity but the same is true for any of the other diversity factors that we rely on.

JUSTICE ALITO: It’s family lore that we have an ancestor who was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: So I — I think in that particular circumstance, it would be not accurate for them to say based on –

JUSTICE ALITO: Well, I identify as an American Indian because I’ve always been told that some ancestor back in the old days was an American — was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: Yes, so I think in that circumstance, it would be very unlikely that that person was telling the truth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

This is what I always thought would be done too. I was shocked to see the race box still there on the common app. I agree if they aren't using race as a factor and legally can't use it as a factor for admission: then don't ask at all.

Once the student has enrolled--they can have a questionnaire then. Leaving the question there raises many issues.

The common app is different from the school. The app collects the data and sends it to school after admissions decisions— otherwise there wouldn’t be data on those who applied but weren’t accepted.

Same thing happens on employment applications. My organization asks demographic data on application but doesn’t provide it to the hiring committee.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) Don’t lie. Leave blank if you don’t want to answer.

2) For those saying ethnicity/race do not matter more than half the schools my kid looked at on Naviance have it as a factor that has MORE weight than her GPA. So she is supposed to believe that they all just forgot to remove after SCOTUS ruling, yeah right.

Sample:
Application Factors

These are the factors that XXX College considers when evaluating applicants.

Very Important
Character/Personal Qualities
Curriculum Rigor/School Record
Ethnicity
Interview
Recommendations
Work Experience

Important
GPA

No idea how much schools consider race. But gpa is almost meaningless when compared across schools— too many variations in how schools grade and calculate gpa. This doesn’t mean that they don’t compare grades among students in the same school (paying close attention to rigor). But gpa itself doesn’t hold much weight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asking again.. If it's *illegal* to use race as a factor but the system is asking for it anyway, is it wrong to provide fake information? e.g. White kid checking the Black box on the common app. Can a school subsequently penalize an applicant for this?

If the answer is no, everyone should do that. Just fake it up until the information becomes useless and they stop asking for it.

You can get thrown out of college or have your degree rescinded for lying on your application. I have seen it. Do not do that. That would be unbelievably stupid, and your actions would severely punish your child.

I'm not lying on the college's application.. just on the common app section on data they are not supposed to use. is that not grounds for a counter suit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

That doesn't make sense. No kid who is not admitted is going to respond to their follow up survey on demographics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

Why would you counsel your kid to lie? The information is necessary or useful for all kinds of reasons unrelated to admissions. For starters, knowing the race of all applicants (after the admissions decisions have been made) is relevant to figuring out whether a university is discriminating, whether they want to focus marketing on certain groups or areas of the country (which is legal), etc. it’s also important to have those statistics about the enrolled class so that potential applicants can have information about demographic mix (just like gender mix) when deciding whether to apply. Some applicants may not want to apply to a school that has a significant gender imbalance or a low number of students that share their racial heritage, for example.

It is important for gathering data for financial aid - if a school has the wrong data - they will not allocate the right amount (more) of financial aid. I am shocked how few people understand how the system really works, and how much misinformation is being spread.

So, collect this data after admissions, when I don't have to suspect you are somehow going to stab me in the back using this information.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
According to the Supreme Court oral aguments, it's all based on self reporting - you can claim to be an Octoroon and check off black - nobody is going to force you to take a genetic ancestry test to prove it.

Remember, race (like gender, apparently) is just a social construct:

=-=

Exchange between Justice Samuel Alito and NC’s Solicitor General, Ryan Park. (He was one of three advocates who spoke on behalf of UNC):

JUSTICE ALITO: So let’s say the student has one grandparent who falls within that class. Can the student claim to be a member of an underrepresented minority?

MR. PARK: Yes, we rely on — on self-reporting. And — and we don’t give any

JUSTICE ALITO: All right. One great grandparent.

MR. PARK: If that person believes that that is the accurate expression of their identity, I don’t think there would be any –

JUSTICE ALITO: One –

MR. PARK: — problem.

JUSTICE ALITO: — great-great

grandparent? Are you going to make me continue to go on?

MR. PARK: Right, right, right. I think that as we go on, I agree that it would seem less plausible that that person would feel that this is actually capturing my true racial identity but the same is true for any of the other diversity factors that we rely on.

JUSTICE ALITO: It’s family lore that we have an ancestor who was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: So I — I think in that particular circumstance, it would be not accurate for them to say based on –

JUSTICE ALITO: Well, I identify as an American Indian because I’ve always been told that some ancestor back in the old days was an American — was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: Yes, so I think in that circumstance, it would be very unlikely that that person was telling the truth.

Why are you giving OP bad advice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

Why would you counsel your kid to lie? The information is necessary or useful for all kinds of reasons unrelated to admissions. For starters, knowing the race of all applicants (after the admissions decisions have been made) is relevant to figuring out whether a university is discriminating, whether they want to focus marketing on certain groups or areas of the country (which is legal), etc. it’s also important to have those statistics about the enrolled class so that potential applicants can have information about demographic mix (just like gender mix) when deciding whether to apply. Some applicants may not want to apply to a school that has a significant gender imbalance or a low number of students that share their racial heritage, for example.

It is important for gathering data for financial aid - if a school has the wrong data - they will not allocate the right amount (more) of financial aid. I am shocked how few people understand how the system really works, and how much misinformation is being spread.

So, collect this data after admissions, when I don't have to suspect you are somehow going to stab me in the back using this information.

You seem dense, so I don't think you have to worry about your kid attends college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

That doesn't make sense. No kid who is not admitted is going to respond to their follow up survey on demographics.

+1

WTAH?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

That doesn't make sense. No kid who is not admitted is going to respond to their follow up survey on demographics.

Absolutely. Why do you need my demographics if you didn't give me what i want? Willing to pay me?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Race is not part of the application anymore, folks. My kid just applied. There’s no “race box” anymore. You can talk about your race in your essay if you want to but that’s it.

Wrong - it is still part of the common app - you chose whether you fill it in.

It is on almost all requests for info on schools websites - some are optional, some are not but for those you can chose decline to report or check the “other” box. So if SCOTUS says they can use race, why are they still collecting it? Because they use it. 🤨

It's not used for admission but is used for data collection to see how many X are admitted to the school. It's still a useful statistic. Same as knowing how many women vs men.

They cannot use for admissions purposes, but they can use for recruitment purposes. That is, if they'd like more URM students, they can send more emails to those students or somehow do something else to encourage applications. URMs are far less likely to apply to top schools for many reasons. So if they can ID those students, they can try to increase # of applications with the theory that they will have then have more qualified applicants in the pool. Once admitted, they can also follow up with whatever segment of students they'd like, and encourage them to come. (Again, URMs are less likely to accept the admissions offers-- schools are far from home, concerns about $$, concerns about whether they would thrive in the community, etc.--- so such followup might help them seal the deal on people they have already admitted.)

So you are also confirming that they use it. My point has been if they cannot use it it needs to be removed from common app, all
school questionnaires etc. It should be a data point the applicant provides AFTER they are accepted - if the reason for having it is to provide statistics on who was admitted/who accepted.

Why would you counsel your kid to lie? The information is necessary or useful for all kinds of reasons unrelated to admissions. For starters, knowing the race of all applicants (after the admissions decisions have been made) is relevant to figuring out whether a university is discriminating, whether they want to focus marketing on certain groups or areas of the country (which is legal), etc. it’s also important to have those statistics about the enrolled class so that potential applicants can have information about demographic mix (just like gender mix) when deciding whether to apply. Some applicants may not want to apply to a school that has a significant gender imbalance or a low number of students that share their racial heritage, for example.

It is important for gathering data for financial aid - if a school has the wrong data - they will not allocate the right amount (more) of financial aid. I am shocked how few people understand how the system really works, and how much misinformation is being spread.

So, collect this data after admissions, when I don't have to suspect you are somehow going to stab me in the back using this information.

Stab you in the back???? Jesus wept...

[Anonymous]

Too many high school students on DCUM on their day off…

[Anonymous]

All of my nieces and nephews are half Asian/half white coming from two different sisters with Asian husbands.

Yes, if they are going into a heavily technical field or the medical field, they need to put white. They also could put "other." But, white is just as valid as Asian so it really doesn't matter for them. And "other" is always valid.

If they are going into something else, maybe race/ethnicity isn't such a big deal. Like culinary science or construction management.

Asian, particular Asians with an immigrant parent (like my sisters' kids) will be judged against their peers, which are Asians with an immigrant parent. You want your kids out of that pool and back into the pool with the white kids.

The applications aren't refined enough to pick up Asian American kids with regular Asian American parents (i.e., no immigrant parent).

In sum, if your kids have an easy way to get out of the Asian applicant pool, take it. Those kids score high. It is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
According to the Supreme Court oral aguments, it's all based on self reporting - you can claim to be an Octoroon and check off black - nobody is going to force you to take a genetic ancestry test to prove it.

Remember, race (like gender, apparently) is just a social construct:

=-=

Exchange between Justice Samuel Alito and NC’s Solicitor General, Ryan Park. (He was one of three advocates who spoke on behalf of UNC):

JUSTICE ALITO: So let’s say the student has one grandparent who falls within that class. Can the student claim to be a member of an underrepresented minority?

MR. PARK: Yes, we rely on — on self-reporting. And — and we don’t give any

JUSTICE ALITO: All right. One great grandparent.

MR. PARK: If that person believes that that is the accurate expression of their identity, I don’t think there would be any –

JUSTICE ALITO: One –

MR. PARK: — problem.

JUSTICE ALITO: — great-great

grandparent? Are you going to make me continue to go on?

MR. PARK: Right, right, right. I think that as we go on, I agree that it would seem less plausible that that person would feel that this is actually capturing my true racial identity but the same is true for any of the other diversity factors that we rely on.

JUSTICE ALITO: It’s family lore that we have an ancestor who was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: So I — I think in that particular circumstance, it would be not accurate for them to say based on –

JUSTICE ALITO: Well, I identify as an American Indian because I’ve always been told that some ancestor back in the old days was an American — was an American Indian.

MR. PARK: Yes, so I think in that circumstance, it would be very unlikely that that person was telling the truth.

Why are you giving OP bad advice?

Not bad advice. As Mr Park stated, the only criteria for determining one's race is: "If that person believes that that is the accurate expression of their identity."

If and when the schools require genetic ancestry tests for admission, I'll be proven wrong. Until then, one can identify with whichever race they wish, and nobody can objectively dispute it!