Should people still hide/lie about their race on college applications?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a certain irony in requiring this data be collected not at the time of enrollment, but specifically at the time of admission, in order to prove whether or not discrimination is happening in admissions. The very collection of the data at the time of admission may promote discrimination.

+1. Sounds like collecting the race info at the time of enrollment is a better choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

To clarify, colleges will continue to receive the data. The data that admissions officers see is filtered and will not include the data point (too risky, as you point out).

That is unclear. What I hear read and heard is that the data is collected and that colleges and choose whether or not to receive it.

I think forcing colleges to accept data that they are prohibited from using is not going to happen. If the Common App does that then it will be 6 months before a new vendor shows up to fix that problem for them. And 99% of colleges will absolutely change vendors if it will protect them from ambulance chasing lawyers.

Common App doesn't have much in the way of competition but if using their data becomes a liability they are toast. They won't survive beyond this next application season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

Well.. He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

Confused about your last sentence.. Did he end up becoming your husband's doctor? I thought he dropped out..

You aren't the least bit confused. You just want to brawl with someone anonymously.

How / Why he was admitted is a related but distinct issue. The guy engaged in fraud and to this day profits from it.

Nobody should have to worry whether or not their doctor is dishonest.

Here is related but distinct anecdote - my accountant is SLOW as molasses. But he has been tested and proven himself to be honest. He will always have my business.

My house cleaners entered the country illegally. I have no issues trusting them with my house keys. You see how this works both ways? When you put artificial walls and someone scales it, not everyone thinks that's wrong. I know I don't and a lot of people I know think that way as well.

I think you should familiarize yourself with 8 U.S. Code § 1324a

And I think our admin (Jeff Steele?) should flag and keep your post forever. Anonymous does not mean invisible.

Do you want Merrick Garland's direct line?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

I’m happy that colleges might focus more on outreach to diverse high-schools. I teach at a high school that is majority low and middle income. Many students are not incredibly high performing but some students are amazing. They have the whole package - smart, hardworking, nice, gritty and resilient. They do very well with limited resources and guidance. I try to help them as much as I can but they mostly get shut out of the top 30 colleges. They always need a lot of financial aid on top of everything else. They also don’t excel at the SAT. More active outreach from colleges and universities would be helpful. I live in an upscale neighborhood and the differences in resources available to high income kids with educated parents takes my breath away

If they don't excel at the SAT then they're not all that smart.

And no, rich parents can't just test prep their kids into excelling at the SAT.

My kid's math score went up 200 points with tutoring...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Better question would be, what happens if someone checks the Black or Hispanic box (or whatever they are called in the common app) and get admitted to a particular college. Come to find out a year later that they aren't really Black. Can the college expel that student for lying in response to that question? If they do that, isn't that a lawsuit waiting to happen since the grounds for the expulsion was illegal?

I say everyone check that Black box.

Do you hear yourself? Why do you think lying is ok? It wasn't before, and it isn't now. Don't lie, people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Better question would be, what happens if someone checks the Black or Hispanic box (or whatever they are called in the common app) and get admitted to a particular college. Come to find out a year later that they aren't really Black. Can the college expel that student for lying in response to that question? If they do that, isn't that a lawsuit waiting to happen since the grounds for the expulsion was illegal?

I say everyone check that Black box.

Do you hear yourself? Why do you think lying is ok? It wasn't before, and it isn't now. Don't lie, people.

It's not lying if your answer to an illegal question will be used against you. I say confuse the questioner. You call it lying, I call it the Truth. The father of your nation, George Washington, who you so revere was nothing more than a terrorist in the eyes of the British. Would you have asked him to refrain from his terrorist ways if you were alive back then? Same shit, bro!

[Anonymous]

Lunacy... sheer lunacy

[Anonymous]

He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

My mom entered the country legally, overstayed her visa (didn’t go home) and was in the country illegally for 10 years practicing medicine (board certified etc) until the amnesty of 1986. When she applied for the amnesty the government official gave her a scoldy lecture for flouting the law. She had to listen quietly but afterward she said “I’ve worked hard and paid taxes and raised two great kids, they should be damn glad to have me here!”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

I’m happy that colleges might focus more on outreach to diverse high-schools. I teach at a high school that is majority low and middle income. Many students are not incredibly high performing but some students are amazing. They have the whole package - smart, hardworking, nice, gritty and resilient. They do very well with limited resources and guidance. I try to help them as much as I can but they mostly get shut out of the top 30 colleges. They always need a lot of financial aid on top of everything else. They also don’t excel at the SAT. More active outreach from colleges and universities would be helpful. I live in an upscale neighborhood and the differences in resources available to high income kids with educated parents takes my breath away

If they don't excel at the SAT then they're not all that smart.

And no, rich parents can't just test prep their kids into excelling at the SAT.

My kid's math score went up 200 points with tutoring...

You can’t turn 1000 into 1400 or 1500. If the potential to excel isn’t there, tutoring won’t provide it. I bet your kid would have gotten +200 just with practice tests, no tutoring.

Former Kaplan tutor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Better question would be, what happens if someone checks the Black or Hispanic box (or whatever they are called in the common app) and get admitted to a particular college. Come to find out a year later that they aren't really Black. Can the college expel that student for lying in response to that question? If they do that, isn't that a lawsuit waiting to happen since the grounds for the expulsion was illegal?

I say everyone check that Black box.

Do you hear yourself? Why do you think lying is ok? It wasn't before, and it isn't now. Don't lie, people.

You are now permitted (even encouraged) to lie about your gender. How is lying about your race (also an immutable genetic characteristic) any different? If I say “despite the race assigned at birth, I identify as black and you must treat me as such just like you treat trans women as women”then there is no intellectually honest progressive counter argument.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the latest Supreme Court ruling, it looks like there will no longer be an advantage for white kids who lie and claim Hispanic or black.

There are a lot of white Hispanics. Not sure why you think it is lying to say you are Hispanic if you are white.

It is lying to say you are Hispanic if you are white and not Hispanic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

My mom entered the country legally, overstayed her visa (didn’t go home) and was in the country illegally for 10 years practicing medicine (board certified etc) until the amnesty of 1986. When she applied for the amnesty the government official gave her a scoldy lecture for flouting the law. She had to listen quietly but afterward she said “I’ve worked hard and paid taxes and raised two great kids, they should be damn glad to have me here!”

Good for her!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

My mom entered the country legally, overstayed her visa (didn’t go home) and was in the country illegally for 10 years practicing medicine (board certified etc) until the amnesty of 1986. When she applied for the amnesty the government official gave her a scoldy lecture for flouting the law. She had to listen quietly but afterward she said “I’ve worked hard and paid taxes and raised two great kids, they should be damn glad to have me here!”

Nobody is perfect. Your mother sounds great. But she did commit fraud and only admitted in when amnesty was on the table. If she made any mistakes with patients I suspect she made efforts to conceal them - especially during her 10 years of practicing medicine illegally in the USA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Better question would be, what happens if someone checks the Black or Hispanic box (or whatever they are called in the common app) and get admitted to a particular college. Come to find out a year later that they aren't really Black. Can the college expel that student for lying in response to that question? If they do that, isn't that a lawsuit waiting to happen since the grounds for the expulsion was illegal?

I say everyone check that Black box.

Do you hear yourself? Why do you think lying is ok? It wasn't before, and it isn't now. Don't lie, people.

You are now permitted (even encouraged) to lie about your gender. How is lying about your race (also an immutable genetic characteristic) any different? If I say “despite the race assigned at birth, I identify as black and you must treat me as such just like you treat trans women as women”then there is no intellectually honest progressive counter argument.[/quote

You are conflating gender bending with "progressive" politics. Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner is a just about the world's most famous trans - and they are conservative.

Whataboutism and fraud are like pennies in loafers. A classic combination

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is a certain irony in requiring this data be collected not at the time of enrollment, but specifically at the time of admission, in order to prove whether or not discrimination is happening in admissions. The very collection of the data at the time of admission may promote discrimination.

+1. Sounds like collecting the race info at the time of enrollment is a better choice.

But then how would the people who want to sue the colleges over admissions have the data to support it?

I’m being sarcastic, but people will probably demand colleges provide this info to prove they AREN’T using race. If the percentages of certain groups don’t go up or down as some wealthy group expected, they’ll sue.