Should people still hide/lie about their race on college applications?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

To clarify, colleges will continue to receive the data. The data that admissions officers see is filtered and will not include the data point (too risky, as you point out).

That is unclear. What I hear read and heard is that the data is collected and that colleges and choose whether or not to receive it.

I think forcing colleges to accept data that they are prohibited from using is not going to happen. If the Common App does that then it will be 6 months before a new vendor shows up to fix that problem for them. And 99% of colleges will absolutely change vendors if it will protect them from ambulance chasing lawyers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

I’m happy that colleges might focus more on outreach to diverse high-schools. I teach at a high school that is majority low and middle income. Many students are not incredibly high performing but some students are amazing. They have the whole package - smart, hardworking, nice, gritty and resilient. They do very well with limited resources and guidance. I try to help them as much as I can but they mostly get shut out of the top 30 colleges. They always need a lot of financial aid on top of everything else. They also don’t excel at the SAT. More active outreach from colleges and universities would be helpful. I live in an upscale neighborhood and the differences in resources available to high income kids with educated parents takes my breath away

If they don't excel at the SAT then they're not all that smart.

And no, rich parents can't just test prep their kids into excelling at the SAT.

Just because they said that 30 years ago doesn’t make it true. MIL was a brilliant math teacher who also did math SAT prep. She would only take kids who could get a 650 on their own. The number of those kids she got to an 800 was remarkably high. There is a method and it works. All three of her children (of varying natural abilities) got an 800 math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think 99% of schools will opt out of receiving that data point. Too much risk.

I also think what this guy said about recruiting from different high schools will become a big deal.

I’m happy that colleges might focus more on outreach to diverse high-schools. I teach at a high school that is majority low and middle income. Many students are not incredibly high performing but some students are amazing. They have the whole package - smart, hardworking, nice, gritty and resilient. They do very well with limited resources and guidance. I try to help them as much as I can but they mostly get shut out of the top 30 colleges. They always need a lot of financial aid on top of everything else. They also don’t excel at the SAT. More active outreach from colleges and universities would be helpful. I live in an upscale neighborhood and the differences in resources available to high income kids with educated parents takes my breath away

If they don't excel at the SAT then they're not all that smart.

And no, rich parents can't just test prep their kids into excelling at the SAT.

Just because they said that 30 years ago doesn’t make it true. MIL was a brilliant math teacher who also did math SAT prep. She would only take kids who could get a 650 on their own. The number of those kids she got to an 800 was remarkably high. There is a method and it works. All three of her children (of varying natural abilities) got an 800 math.

BUT But but... PP says that kids with 650 aren't that smart? How can it be that with some tutoring they got to 800? It isn't possible. It just isn't, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:With the latest Supreme Court ruling, it looks like there will no longer be an advantage for white kids who lie and claim Hispanic or black.

Hispanic/Latino is the ethnicity question, which is a separate question from race. Many, perhaps even most, Hispanic students in the US check the white box when asked for race. There is no Mestizo option. (The "American Indian or Alaska Native" box pulls up questions asking for federal tribe identification info.) This is entirely the result of federal reporting requirements.

What will happen with the National Hispanic Recognition Program? I have read different things, some suggesting its demise but others saying that yes, of course students should report that academic honor in their applications.

On the one hand, academic awards can be considered. Whether an academic award that is race- or ethnicity-based can be considered seems to run close to the line of considering race. Yet, there it is in the app. Maybe admissions can't track it, but admissions will see it when reading the file.

In all the online discussions I've seen on affirmative action, no one seems to care much about these awards one way or the other. Maybe because these would tend to be the high-scoring students among the URM groups. Or maybe because they are such a small number of students.

[Anonymous]

Better question would be, what happens if someone checks the Black or Hispanic box (or whatever they are called in the common app) and get admitted to a particular college. Come to find out a year later that they aren't really Black. Can the college expel that student for lying in response to that question? If they do that, isn't that a lawsuit waiting to happen since the grounds for the expulsion was illegal?

I say everyone check that Black box.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

[Anonymous]

The designation should just be removed from the application altogether.

[Anonymous]

There is a certain irony in requiring this data be collected not at the time of enrollment, but specifically at the time of admission, in order to prove whether or not discrimination is happening in admissions. The very collection of the data at the time of admission may promote discrimination.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

I feel vulnerable and nervous at the doctor's office. My son feels very, very vulnerable and nervous. Having to worry whether or not the doctor is fundamentally dishonest is just too much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

Well.. He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

Confused about your last sentence.. Did he end up becoming your husband's doctor? I thought he dropped out..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

I feel vulnerable and nervous at the doctor's office. My son feels very, very vulnerable and nervous. Having to worry whether or not the doctor is fundamentally dishonest is just too much.

I bet none of your doctors are Black.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

Well.. He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

Confused about your last sentence.. Did he end up becoming your husband's doctor? I thought he dropped out..

You aren't the least bit confused. You just want to brawl with someone anonymously.

How / Why he was admitted is a related but distinct issue. The guy engaged in fraud and to this day profits from it.

Nobody should have to worry whether or not their doctor is dishonest.

Here is related but distinct anecdote - my accountant is SLOW as molasses. But he has been tested and proven himself to be honest. He will always have my business.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

Well.. He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

Confused about your last sentence.. Did he end up becoming your husband's doctor? I thought he dropped out..

You aren't the least bit confused. You just want to brawl with someone anonymously.

How / Why he was admitted is a related but distinct issue. The guy engaged in fraud and to this day profits from it.

Nobody should have to worry whether or not their doctor is dishonest.

Here is related but distinct anecdote - my accountant is SLOW as molasses. But he has been tested and proven himself to be honest. He will always have my business.

My house cleaners entered the country illegally. I have no issues trusting them with my house keys. You see how this works both ways? When you put artificial walls and someone scales it, not everyone thinks that's wrong. I know I don't and a lot of people I know think that way as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably, lying always looks good background check wise if they have really high aspirations for their lives as adults.

Vijay Chokalingam was cold busted after claiming to be black and absolutely nothing happened. He stayed in medical school until he flunked out.

Well.. He's about as black as any Black out there and people from his land ancestors did endure slavery in the US (Google Indentured/Slave labor from India to the United States). If a recent Nigerian immigrant's kids can qualify for the Black 'quota', why not him?

It is fraud. People hope and expect to have honest doctors.

Spend a few years of your life pursuing a medical malpractice case and you'll find yourself wondering how the heck someone with a documented history of fraud gets to be your husband's physician.

Well.. He was admitted based on his grades, wasn't he? Obviously the school thought he was good enough to become a doctor. To me this is the equivalent of someone crossing the border illegally. Would you consider them to be fraudsters all their life?

Confused about your last sentence.. Did he end up becoming your husband's doctor? I thought he dropped out..

You aren't the least bit confused. You just want to brawl with someone anonymously.

How / Why he was admitted is a related but distinct issue. The guy engaged in fraud and to this day profits from it.

Nobody should have to worry whether or not their doctor is dishonest.

Here is related but distinct anecdote - my accountant is SLOW as molasses. But he has been tested and proven himself to be honest. He will always have my business.

My house cleaners entered the country illegally. I have no issues trusting them with my house keys. You see how this works both ways? When you put artificial walls and someone scales it, not everyone thinks that's wrong. I know I don't and a lot of people I know think that way as well.

I think you should familiarize yourself with 8 U.S. Code § 1324a

And I think our admin (Jeff Steele?) should flag and keep your post forever. Anonymous does not mean invisible.