prepping for cogat test .. is it cheating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

The SAT was created in the 1920s and was a modified version of an Army IQ test.

And today it's nothing like that...

For a long time, the Scholastic Aptitude Test was considered an aptitude test, as a PP noted, until Kaplan showed them otherwise.

Since then, they've changed it multiple times and it's very different from the test it used to be. They even changed the name to Scholastic Assessment Test then eventually to just SAT. Just as prepping broke the SAT, prepping is breaking the Cogat and eventually they will do away with it. This hurts gifted URMs who will be undiscovered. But why should families who prep care about other gifted kids?

Yes, SAT evolved and its preparation materials are now freely available on Khan Academy and other online sources which makes it accessible to all kids, including talented URMs. Transparency and equal access are important.

Yes, but that's for chumps. If you want to be prepped you got to pay$$$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

The SAT was created in the 1920s and was a modified version of an Army IQ test.

And today it's nothing like that...

For a long time, the Scholastic Aptitude Test was considered an aptitude test, as a PP noted, until Kaplan showed them otherwise.

Since then, they've changed it multiple times and it's very different from the test it used to be. They even changed the name to Scholastic Assessment Test then eventually to just SAT. Just as prepping broke the SAT, prepping is breaking the Cogat and eventually they will do away with it. This hurts gifted URMs who will be undiscovered. But why should families who prep care about other gifted kids?

Yes, SAT evolved and its preparation materials are now freely available on Khan Academy and other online sources which makes it accessible to all kids, including talented URMs. Transparency and equal access are important.

Uh, colleges are dropping the SAT entirely. That hurst URMs. You know that, right?

Many are test optional but SATs can still be submitted. And yes, standardized tests with free materials and open access can help URMs be discovered.

Well, colleges want to get rid of the SATs because, even with free materials, they aren't giving the demographics that the colleges want. So they want to get rid of the test.

Re the Cogat, it's not a "standardized test" or an assessment test. It's supposed to be a more affordable version for schools to use than a full-blown IQ test, that school districts used to use (some still do) on a selected group of students. And no, you're not supposed to study/prep/cheat for an IQ test, but it is preppable/gameable or as PP upthread put it, a "bad test". Since parents have wrecked the Cogat, they'll move to something else. Right now, that something else is the GBRS.

In theory but just becoming familiar with the test format and question types will significantly boost your kids scores by as much as 20% to 30%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

It was called the Scholastic Aptitude Test because it was designed to measure your aptitude, not knowledge

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

The SAT was created in the 1920s and was a modified version of an Army IQ test.

And today it's nothing like that...

For a long time, the Scholastic Aptitude Test was considered an aptitude test, as a PP noted, until Kaplan showed them otherwise.

Since then, they've changed it multiple times and it's very different from the test it used to be. They even changed the name to Scholastic Assessment Test then eventually to just SAT. Just as prepping broke the SAT, prepping is breaking the Cogat and eventually they will do away with it. This hurts gifted URMs who will be undiscovered. But why should families who prep care about other gifted kids?

Yes, SAT evolved and its preparation materials are now freely available on Khan Academy and other online sources which makes it accessible to all kids, including talented URMs. Transparency and equal access are important.

Yes, but that's for chumps. If you want to be prepped you got to pay$$$$.

Most of the best prep resources are in $$ range. (UWorld, Erica meltzer, college pandawth, 1600.io) and of course the best of all - all the released exams - are free online

[Anonymous]

IQ types of testing can’t be prepared as other types of tests can (such as achievement based tests). However, it doesn’t mean one can’t improve their scores after preparation. But usually the improvement is limited. Preparation usually helps one get familiar with the types of questions being asked and sometimes the strategies but it’ll never make a mediocre test taker to appear as a genius. On the other hand, if someone is borderline but not quite there yet, it may help with the last bit of boost. The fact is lots of people prepare. Even school started help students prepare to level the ground. If you don’t, sometimes psychologically you will fear your DC is behind. The local Korean grocery store sells COGAT/NNAT books for $20 each. That’s not cheating in my opinion. Anyone can spend some lunch money and let their kids do a few practices. It is not necessary to attend any school or special test prep program to prepare though.

[Anonymous]

Maybe if all kids were judged on only their test scores, I wouldn't bother prepping my DS. But since things like URM, ELL, Young Scholar matter (and he won't get those bonus points) and I don't know how his teacher will evaluate him on GBRS, he needs to do well enough on NNAT and CogAT to be among the top kids at his ES. Not just in pool, but hopefully at top of the pool because he's not an URM. Nobody is under the illusion that all the kids in AAP are "gifted." but it is the more accelerated track in FCPS. I won't pay for a course, but I will buy workbooks to help him put his best foot forward. That's not cheating!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

The SAT was created in the 1920s and was a modified version of an Army IQ test.

And today it's nothing like that...

For a long time, the Scholastic Aptitude Test was considered an aptitude test, as a PP noted, until Kaplan showed them otherwise.

Since then, they've changed it multiple times and it's very different from the test it used to be. They even changed the name to Scholastic Assessment Test then eventually to just SAT. Just as prepping broke the SAT, prepping is breaking the Cogat and eventually they will do away with it. This hurts gifted URMs who will be undiscovered. But why should families who prep care about other gifted kids?

Yes, SAT evolved and its preparation materials are now freely available on Khan Academy and other online sources which makes it accessible to all kids, including talented URMs. Transparency and equal access are important.

Yes, but that's for chumps. If you want to be prepped you got to pay$$$$.

Disagree. My sibling took an expensive Kaplan course because her friend recommended it. He did not do better after the course. My dad did my prep using SAT books at home and having me sit for an entire SAT exam 3 weekends in a row. My scores were significantly better than my brother's, even though his HS (and college) grades were better. Parents don't need to spend huge amounts of money if they are willing to work with their kids. Just another data point for those who have more time than $$$.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Maybe if all kids were judged on only their test scores, I wouldn't bother prepping my DS. But since things like URM, ELL, Young Scholar matter (and he won't get those bonus points) and I don't know how his teacher will evaluate him on GBRS, he needs to do well enough on NNAT and CogAT to be among the top kids at his ES. Not just in pool, but hopefully at top of the pool because he's not an URM. Nobody is under the illusion that all the kids in AAP are "gifted." but it is the more accelerated track in FCPS. I won't pay for a course, but I will buy workbooks to help him put his best foot forward. That's not cheating!

This is very politely worded but tbh sounds like you've spent too much time reading DCUM.

If your kid is gifted, they'll most likely get in. If they aren't, they might get in but also will be fine in gen ed classes. ES isn't FCPS's strong suit but it's fine and students are prepared for MS and HS, which are FCPS's strong suit.

[Anonymous]

Unless someone grew up with no moral compass whatsoever, people know what cheating is and they know when they are engaged in activities which are not strictly ethical. They might lie to themselves and make up excuses to make themselves feel better about it, but they know that they’re cheating. Yes, when parents use those workbooks that teach kids how to approach the types of questions on the and then practice answering them, they are cheating.

(And, no, “everyone else is doing it” does not make it right.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe if all kids were judged on only their test scores, I wouldn't bother prepping my DS. But since things like URM, ELL, Young Scholar matter (and he won't get those bonus points) and I don't know how his teacher will evaluate him on GBRS, he needs to do well enough on NNAT and CogAT to be among the top kids at his ES. Not just in pool, but hopefully at top of the pool because he's not an URM. Nobody is under the illusion that all the kids in AAP are "gifted." but it is the more accelerated track in FCPS. I won't pay for a course, but I will buy workbooks to help him put his best foot forward. That's not cheating!

This is very politely worded but tbh sounds like you've spent too much time reading DCUM.

If your kid is gifted, they'll most likely get in. If they aren't, they might get in but also will be fine in gen ed classes. ES isn't FCPS's strong suit but it's fine and students are prepared for MS and HS, which are FCPS's strong suit.

I was in "GT" back in the 1990's when about 5% of FCPS students were admitted; it wasn't exclusively gifted kids even then. I am not "gifted," just reasonably bright. I wasn't prepped in any way, but my parents did get a WISC score as another input in case my teacher's GRBS was not supportive. That has always counted for a lot. Today 20% of ES kids are in AAP. Everyone knows the top 20% isn't "gifted," and technically they may not be the top 20% with other factors taken into account. But the bottom 80% isn't where most parents want their kids. And things are different today with so many resources devoted to SOL prep in class (is that cheating?), ESL kids, kids with learning disabilities who are mainstreamed. So yeah, ceteris paribus, I get that parents might try to point their kids in the direction of AAP if they think their DC might be among the top 20% academically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In the 1970s and 80s, kids were told that they couldn't/shouldn't study for the SAT. That it was a measure of their innate ability.

Look how far we've come.

No one I know has ever been told this. This is a knowledge test. OF COURSE you should prep.

The SAT was created in the 1920s and was a modified version of an Army IQ test.

And today it's nothing like that...

For a long time, the Scholastic Aptitude Test was considered an aptitude test, as a PP noted, until Kaplan showed them otherwise.

Since then, they've changed it multiple times and it's very different from the test it used to be. They even changed the name to Scholastic Assessment Test then eventually to just SAT. Just as prepping broke the SAT, prepping is breaking the Cogat and eventually they will do away with it. This hurts gifted URMs who will be undiscovered. But why should families who prep care about other gifted kids?

Yes, SAT evolved and its preparation materials are now freely available on Khan Academy and other online sources which makes it accessible to all kids, including talented URMs. Transparency and equal access are important.

Uh, colleges are dropping the SAT entirely. That hurst URMs. You know that, right?

Many are test optional but SATs can still be submitted. And yes, standardized tests with free materials and open access can help URMs be discovered.

Well, colleges want to get rid of the SATs because, even with free materials, they aren't giving the demographics that the colleges want. So they want to get rid of the test.

Re the Cogat, it's not a "standardized test" or an assessment test. It's supposed to be a more affordable version for schools to use than a full-blown IQ test, that school districts used to use (some still do) on a selected group of students. And no, you're not supposed to study/prep/cheat for an IQ test, but it is preppable/gameable or as PP upthread put it, a "bad test". Since parents have wrecked the Cogat, they'll move to something else. Right now, that something else is the GBRS.

They were some foreign sat scandals. I think that’s what happened. And recycled question.

It is a combination of events. There were foreign cheating scandals. It is not that questions are recycled but that there are recognizable patterns to the types of questions and kids can be taught how to solve the very specific questions on the test. And that prep tends to be concentrated in particular groups of people, primarily people with higher incomes, Caucasians, and Asian kids. Finally, there is academic research that points to cultural bias in the test, particularly in the vocab section.

I remember Kaplan’s arrival on the scene in the 1980’s, I wrote an article on them for my high school newspaper. Very few kids were doing prep at that time, my school was a high SES school, and most of my friends thought the idea of studying for the test on the weekend was horrific and cheating. That had already shifted by the time my younger sibling was in high school 5 years later because people saw how prepping influenced scores and acceptances. It didn’t take long. My high school was a majority/minority high school, with Chinese, Korean, and Japanese kids being in the majority. My younger siblings school was mainly Caucasian, he attended a private school because of learning issues.

Kids can still submit their SAT scores. I believe that the guidance from guidance counselors has been to submit your SAT scores when they are in the range or higher that the school says is the average for their students. Colleges still use them but they have less weight now then they used to. Same thing has happened with the NNAT and the CoGAT for AAP.

There have been actual recycled questions on it. You can read about it and find out.

That’s actually knowing the questions on the actual test, not pattern recognition.

[Anonymous]

We prepped ourselves by using books, and then used an online question provider testingmom to simulate the test online as well. I was unhappy with the repeated questions on Testingmom after a few attempts, but overall, my child received borderline scores for our pyramid (136 - wasn't in "pool"), but was accepted in AAP. I'm confident without prepping, we would have scored 4-5 points less and would not have gotten in. I have no regrets.

[Anonymous]

AAP is not a gifted program. It is an accelerated program, as its name suggests. It used to be called a GT program, but the name was changed to reflect the new nature of the program. I was told that in FFX county, about 50% students receive some form of accelerated service (including different levels of AAP). 25% are in Level IV AAP. In contrast, Montgomery County’s GT Program only admits 3% of the total student population. Loudoun county roughly 10-11%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:AAP is not a gifted program. It is an accelerated program, as its name suggests. It used to be called a GT program, but the name was changed to reflect the new nature of the program. I was told that in FFX county, about 50% students receive some form of accelerated service (including different levels of AAP). 25% are in Level IV AAP. In contrast, Montgomery County’s GT Program only admits 3% of the total student population. Loudoun county roughly 10-11%.

19% is in the program, and 50% is an exaggeration, but the point is valid. This is literally what is causing the most issues. Most parents will acknowledge that their child is not gifted. Most parents will NOT acknowledge their child is not close to the top 20%, and once you pull the higher performers out, you're stuck in a classroom teaching the lowest common denominator.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Everyone preps. I wish I had known that when my older child was taking these tests. I was completely clueless about AAP and the difference between AAP and General Ed. I thought it was a truly gifted program and if my child was gifted, she'd be chosen. Little did I know it's just a smart kid+prepped kid class.

+1 This