Algebra 1 in 5th

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Algebra in 5th is not unusual in countries outside the US. Parents push their kids harder on math. The US is just behind.

That’s not entirely true. The Algebra 1 class covering up to graphing quadratics is taught in 8th grade in the country I was born in. There are some algebraic concepts taught earlier, but it’s not a real algebra class in 5th grade. Some algebra is taught in US in earlier grades as well, but the curriculum seems to be about one year behind, not four grades as the post implies.

Given that a large portion of the students in US are accelerated, it sort of evens out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Algebra in 5th is not unusual in countries outside the US. Parents push their kids harder on math. The US is just behind.

That’s not entirely true. The Algebra 1 class covering up to graphing quadratics is taught in 8th grade in the country I was born in. There are some algebraic concepts taught earlier, but it’s not a real algebra class in 5th grade. Some algebra is taught in US in earlier grades as well, but the curriculum seems to be about one year behind, not four grades as the post implies.

Given that a large portion of the students in US are accelerated, it sort of evens out.

No, PP is absolutely correct. US public education is a 3rd world system that 3rd world would be embarrassed about.

[Anonymous]

In Singapore many were studying calculus in middle school. Children brains are malleable, and if they’re smart you would be surprised how far you can push them. Not saying it’s healthy, studying until 11 pm every night at 7 years old, but that’s another story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Algebra in 5th is not unusual in countries outside the US. Parents push their kids harder on math. The US is just behind.

That’s not entirely true. The Algebra 1 class covering up to graphing quadratics is taught in 8th grade in the country I was born in. There are some algebraic concepts taught earlier, but it’s not a real algebra class in 5th grade. Some algebra is taught in US in earlier grades as well, but the curriculum seems to be about one year behind, not four grades as the post implies.

Given that a large portion of the students in US are accelerated, it sort of evens out.

They are saying four grades behind because algebra is a 9th grade class in the US curriculum. You get high school credit if you take it in 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

If 1 in 10,000 is not unusual, where do you draw the line? 1 in 100,000 or maybe 1 in 1,000,000?

You’ll run out of students soon.

The OP said her child is in an unusual situation such that the school and parents aren’t sure how to deal with. Not that her child is the singular most accelerated child in the universe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

Yeah, we should take at face value bragging posts on an anonymous forum. Also anecdotal, I’ve been told by proud parents that their 3rd graders are doing Algebra when in reality they just know how to solve a linear equation.

My advice for placement is to find a good diagnostic test like MAP, and target a grade where she’s at least in the 90th percentile. If it is too high she would not be challenged enough, if lower she might struggle when there’s additional stress from being in an environment with older kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

It depends on the school system. In mcps, it’s 7 or 8 but some take it in 6th. Kids on the slower track take it in 9th. Some privates wait till 8 or 9th.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

I wouldn't assume that. It's probably a few of the same people posting a lot. Or people are lying.
I would guess that it's like:
5 kids per year skipped to 5th or earlier grade algebra
100-ish in 6th grade Algebra
2000-ish in 7th grade Algebra.

Given that there are about 14,000 kids per grade level, this distribution seems pretty reasonable.
5th grade algebra is pretty unusual and is only offered to the kids who really are outliers. I've posted about this before, but my kid was also skipped ahead two years. I remember that in the 4th grade, as a kid taking AAP 6th grade math, he took the 7th grade iready and scored 100 points higher than the 99th percentile cutoff line. In WISC, he hit the test ceiling on FRI. These are the kid FCPS is willing to skip ahead to that degree. They aren't doing it for "regular" 99th percentile kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I appreciate all of the thoughts given. What is clear to us is that it isn’t an easy situation to navigate. What makes it most challenging, perhaps, is the fact that there are so few other instances of other children and families in the same situation. We were told from the beginning that he is a true outlier. The county has seen a few other children like this, but not many.

5th grade algebra isn't that much of an outlier in Fairfax.

County wide, only a small handful of kids per grade level are jumped ahead more than a year. Being one of the top 3 or 4 kids out of 14,000 would make OP's kid an outlier, but not at all an anomaly for FCPS.

Algebra is officially a 9th grade class. It is more than a handful of kids per school who are this far ahead. Many have 7th grade algebra 2 years ahead, and even 3 years ahead there's probably at least 100 in the county taking algebra in 6th grade. There have been lots of posts on this forum about 5th grade algebra, so it seems it is not that unusual, probably 10 every year across the county.

I wouldn't assume that. It's probably a few of the same people posting a lot. Or people are lying.
I would guess that it's like:
5 kids per year skipped to 5th or earlier grade algebra
100-ish in 6th grade Algebra
2000-ish in 7th grade Algebra.

Given that there are about 14,000 kids per grade level, this distribution seems pretty reasonable.
5th grade algebra is pretty unusual and is only offered to the kids who really are outliers. I've posted about this before, but my kid was also skipped ahead two years. I remember that in the 4th grade, as a kid taking AAP 6th grade math, he took the 7th grade iready and scored 100 points higher than the 99th percentile cutoff line. In WISC, he hit the test ceiling on FRI. These are the kid FCPS is willing to skip ahead to that degree. They aren't doing it for "regular" 99th percentile kids.

Real stats are way way under all your estimates.

[Anonymous]

How about some actual data on test takers for MAP in Algebra 1:

https://www.nwea.org/uploads/2021/06/2019-MAP-Growth-HS-Math-Norms-Report-FINAL.pdf

In summary, students taking Algebra 1 by grade, also extrapolating from Geometry and Algebra 2 data for 4th and 5th grade:
9th, 55%
8th, 27%
7th, 5.9%
6th, 0.24%
5th, 0.013%
4th, 0.0066%

These numbers are probably overestimates, it’s more likely that the test is administered to higher performing students.

Interestingly the estimates of previous posters were quite accurate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about some actual data on test takers for MAP in Algebra 1:

https://www.nwea.org/uploads/2021/06/2019-MAP-Growth-HS-Math-Norms-Report-FINAL.pdf

In summary, students taking Algebra 1 by grade, also extrapolating from Geometry and Algebra 2 data for 4th and 5th grade:
9th, 55%
8th, 27%
7th, 5.9%
6th, 0.24%
5th, 0.013%
4th, 0.0066%

These numbers are probably overestimates, it’s more likely that the test is administered to higher performing students.

Interestingly the estimates of previous posters were quite accurate.

The estimate for the 4th and 5th grades is assuming these students take one math class per year, ie they don’t accelerate, which is obviously not true. If we keep the same ratio as 7th to 6th cohorts we get:

5th: 0.01%
4th: 0.0004%

Either way Algebra 1 in 5th grade is rare enough that it would be about 1 student per grade over the entire county. Not exactly common!

[Anonymous]

Original poster here. When I mentioned the rarity of our situation in a previous post, it was only to back up the idea that it is hard to find other people to talk to who have been in a similar situation. Having other people and knowing their experiences would be helpful when trying to make some decisions for my son. But, since knowing the quantifiable rarity has become the focus, we were told by the head of math for the county that roughly 30 students take Algebra 1
in the county as 6th graders. We were also told that our son is one of 2 students tracking to take Algebra in 5th.

[Anonymous]

My son is in a similar situation taking Algebra in 4th. He got this advanced because I was teaching him during the COVID times and we had a lot of time on our hands. He is also fairly quick to catch on things. The class he is taking is online through the local community college. I would not recommend an online class at that age unless there someone to tutor him one on one. We tried on line classes, regular classes through the school, enrichment like AOPS etc. and one on one instruction is by far the most effective since you can go back and forth with the student to figure out what he understood. Of course this takes more time and/or money compared to the others.

Another point, look carefully at the contents of the class, some skip material are are not well aligned with the common core. Then, when he house back to an in person class he might not have been taught the foundation for it.

Make sure he is placed appropriately through multiple measures. There are diagnostics test that are free like Khan Academy, or some that you can purchase like IXL or MAP. Don’t rely only on the school because this situation is something they don’t run into every year.

I would also advise taking your time, if it will be two years to go through Algebra 1, that’s perfectly fine, use the diagnostics to find areas that were not understood properly and have him work on them. In the end the goal is learning, not that he takes Algebra 1 as early as possible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I encourage you to look ahead at where this path leads and recognize that faster isn't better.

Looking at the logistics of skipping ahead is always a good idea. I disagree with the implication that OP is rushing things and should slow down. FCPS does not skip kids ahead 2 or 3 years in math unless the kid is an extreme outlier. The kid will not get "stronger foundations" from slowing down. The only thing he could possibly get from slowing down is extreme boredom in math class.

If my child were an extreme outlier, I'd go around to some of the private schools and see if they would accept him - even on scholarship. My sister and I went to school that way and when we went back to public school (parents divorce, moving etc etc), it was a huge shock at how slow everything was. There is no way I'd keep a brilliant kid in FCPS.