What dies it take for Russia to stop this war?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The history of Crimea since 1917 is the Bolsheviks massacred and deported a lot of the population, and many others fled, then Stalin killed and deported a bunch more, it was an autonomous SSR, then part of the Russian SSR, then in 1954 made part of the Ukrainian SSR. Russia says it is part of Russia because it is full of Russians, but that is because the Russians forcefully and brutally displaced much of the pre-Soviet population.

I love how you say “Russians forcefully and brutally displaced much of the pre-Soviet population”, as if Stalin wasn’t a Georgian and as if Bolsheviks weren’t a multiethnic force. There was a poster here about two pages ago who tried to lay the civil war atrocities at Russia’s feet.

Russia looks back at the Soviet period like the big brother in a disfunctional abusive family looks back at their childhood, thinking that they were all suffering together. The other former republics look back and remember that oldest brother had a favored status, did nothing to stand up for abused younger siblings and took advantage of the disfunction and abuse to steal a bunch of younger siblings stuff and also rough them up sometimes. Russia is the biggest brother that doesn’t understand why younger siblings don’t want to get together for the holidays now that abusive mom and dad are gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The history of Crimea since 1917 is the Bolsheviks massacred and deported a lot of the population, and many others fled, then Stalin killed and deported a bunch more, it was an autonomous SSR, then part of the Russian SSR, then in 1954 made part of the Ukrainian SSR. Russia says it is part of Russia because it is full of Russians, but that is because the Russians forcefully and brutally displaced much of the pre-Soviet population.

I love how you say “Russians forcefully and brutally displaced much of the pre-Soviet population”, as if Stalin wasn’t a Georgian and as if Bolsheviks weren’t a multiethnic force. There was a poster here about two pages ago who tried to lay the civil war atrocities at Russia’s feet.

Russia looks back at the Soviet period like the big brother in a disfunctional abusive family looks back at their childhood, thinking that they were all suffering together. The other former republics look back and remember that oldest brother had a favored status, did nothing to stand up for abused younger siblings and took advantage of the disfunction and abuse to steal a bunch of younger siblings stuff and also rough them up sometimes. Russia is the biggest brother that doesn’t understand why younger siblings don’t want to get together for the holidays now that abusive mom and dad are gone.

Except the ones that send their sons and daughters to sweep the streets, drive the taxicabs, paint the walls and flip the burgers in Moscow lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think “what it takes” is for every Russian city, town, and village to be a smoldering hole in the ground. The Russians are like cockroaches- they will find a way to survive even the end of days. Always have, always will. They will always win a war of attrition.

Are you Ukrainian? This would explain your thinking, otherwise you are just a danger to society. You have no idea how many Russians have nothing to do with this war and don’t support it - they just can’t do very much unfortunately.
Do you support all North Koreans or Iranians killed too? Sick!

No, I’m an American. We should have ground them into oblivion when we had the chance. And no, I don’t really care for the “innocent” Russians sleeping soundly in their warm beds tonight while actual innocent Ukrainian children shiver with hungry bellies in a bomb shelter. Russia started this war of aggression, remember? Russia is committing war crimes every single day. Time to bring the pain home.

Are you originally from Ukraine?
Im asking because you sound too “racist” for an American (I don’t know the term equivalent to racism when applied to an entire nation).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think “what it takes” is for every Russian city, town, and village to be a smoldering hole in the ground. The Russians are like cockroaches- they will find a way to survive even the end of days. Always have, always will. They will always win a war of attrition.

Are you Ukrainian? This would explain your thinking, otherwise you are just a danger to society. You have no idea how many Russians have nothing to do with this war and don’t support it - they just can’t do very much unfortunately.
Do you support all North Koreans or Iranians killed too? Sick!

This is very flawed thinking. we know a lot about what Russians think. Some very small number of citizens have spoken out against the war publicly. Hundreds of thousands of men have left the country to avoid the military draft but by and large Russian men abroad have not used their position of privilege and safety to protest the war. Some men in the military have protested their lack training and equipment, but not their mission; torture, war crimes, attacks on civilian objects and looting by Russian military are widespread indicating that there is little to no opposition to these tactics up and down the chain of command. Many Russian citizens , civilian and military families, express support for the war, using vile, genocidal, racist language. We know this from interviews and social media.

There is a great silent majority who 🙈🙉🙊, but the bystander is on the side of the perpetrator. It doesn’tbmatter if those silent Russians don’t like the war if they are not publicly saying so. No one can excuse them while Ukrainians are sitting in dark unheated house praying to hear from their kidnaped children and hoping to find the bodies of their disappeared relatives.

You have no idea. Russian men who fled still have family in Russia you moron, and the said families will suffer if the men speak out.
Why don’t North Koreans protest, huh? Because they will be thrown in jail that’s why.
You are afraid to say anything remotely non PC for the fear of being cancelled yet you preach to Russians who are risking much more than just a job loss?!
Hypocrisy typical of someone who never lived in an authoritarian country

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Honestly I think that Ukraine will need to start bombing inside of Russia to force a revolution there. It’s horrible but that’s the only way that the Russian people will risk everything to take out Putin. Give them a week of notice of what will happen and then if they aren’t in the midst of a real revolution then bring the invasion home to them in every way - bomb our school, we bomb 3 of yours, bomb our maternity hospital, we bomb 3 of yours. If are cold and dark then so are your people, but more of them. We need to help Ukraine to do that with precision missiles that can reach deep within Russia. Right now, the Russian people are too comfortable and have no reason to risk their lives getting rid of Putin. Things need to get bad enough for them that dying for a revolution to protect their own children and families looks like a good option.

Ukraine doesn’t have the weapons. The west clearly doesn’t want them to do it because they are not given such weapons.
Make of it what you will

[Anonymous]

Ukrainian government is no nice guy, they did impose their “Ukraine isn’t Russia, Ukraine is Europe” BS on their people but it doesn’t excuse or justify the invasion.
It will end when the costs to one side become too high. Which side? We will see; most likely Russia.
It’s sad that people of both counties that have nothing to do with politics have to suffer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it ends when Putin dies or is overthrown, and I don't think it's that remote of a possibility. We have an obvious example in Nicholas II of what happens to an autocratic Russian leader when he leads his country into a war for which they are militarily ill-prepared, exposed, and humiliated against "lesser" opponents, leading to economic ruin. Russians put up with a lot from their leaders until suddenly they don't. Putin knows this, hence the paranoia and the 50-foot tables.

Much of Western Europe has enjoyed a high quality of life with elected governments and expectations that these officials will comport their duties in a reasonable manner. When they don't, they get thrown out on their ear. And yet, Russia can't get its sh*t together. One thug after another, century after century. Ivan the Terrible. Stalin. Putin.

What is wrong with Russia? Serious question. One thug after another.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it ends when Putin dies or is overthrown, and I don't think it's that remote of a possibility. We have an obvious example in Nicholas II of what happens to an autocratic Russian leader when he leads his country into a war for which they are militarily ill-prepared, exposed, and humiliated against "lesser" opponents, leading to economic ruin. Russians put up with a lot from their leaders until suddenly they don't. Putin knows this, hence the paranoia and the 50-foot tables.

Much of Western Europe has enjoyed a high quality of life with elected governments and expectations that these officials will comport their duties in a reasonable manner. When they don't, they get thrown out on their ear. And yet, Russia can't get its sh*t together. One thug after another, century after century. Ivan the Terrible. Stalin. Putin.

What is wrong with Russia? Serious question. One thug after another.

Aren't you being, er, rather generous to Europe? The continent that gave us Hitler? The governments that are behind untold number of atrocities in Africa and the Middle East? It's a bit much to hold them up as a picture of enlightenment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ukrainian government is no nice guy, they did impose their “Ukraine isn’t Russia, Ukraine is Europe” BS on their people but it doesn’t excuse or justify the invasion.
It will end when the costs to one side become too high. Which side? We will see; most likely Russia.
It’s sad that people of both counties that have nothing to do with politics have to suffer.

Our daycare teacher is from Donetsk. She is opposed to the war of course, but hates the Ukrainian government with a passion for the forced Ukrainization and sheer contempt to the citizens who didn't buy the vision Kiev was imposing. When we expressed our sympathies to her in February, she said "the war in our hometown has been going on for eight years but no one cares and no one wants to see."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think “what it takes” is for every Russian city, town, and village to be a smoldering hole in the ground. The Russians are like cockroaches- they will find a way to survive even the end of days. Always have, always will. They will always win a war of attrition.

Are you Ukrainian? This would explain your thinking, otherwise you are just a danger to society. You have no idea how many Russians have nothing to do with this war and don’t support it - they just can’t do very much unfortunately.
Do you support all North Koreans or Iranians killed too? Sick!

This is very flawed thinking. we know a lot about what Russians think. Some very small number of citizens have spoken out against the war publicly. Hundreds of thousands of men have left the country to avoid the military draft but by and large Russian men abroad have not used their position of privilege and safety to protest the war. Some men in the military have protested their lack training and equipment, but not their mission; torture, war crimes, attacks on civilian objects and looting by Russian military are widespread indicating that there is little to no opposition to these tactics up and down the chain of command. Many Russian citizens , civilian and military families, express support for the war, using vile, genocidal, racist language. We know this from interviews and social media.

There is a great silent majority who 🙈🙉🙊, but the bystander is on the side of the perpetrator. It doesn’tbmatter if those silent Russians don’t like the war if they are not publicly saying so. No one can excuse them while Ukrainians are sitting in dark unheated house praying to hear from their kidnaped children and hoping to find the bodies of their disappeared relatives.

You have no idea. Russian men who fled still have family in Russia you moron, and the said families will suffer if the men speak out.
Why don’t North Koreans protest, huh? Because they will be thrown in jail that’s why.
You are afraid to say anything remotely non PC for the fear of being cancelled yet you preach to Russians who are risking much more than just a job loss?!
Hypocrisy typical of someone who never lived in an authoritarian country

This is the typical Russian excuse - “we cannot protest because we will suffer negative repercussions.”. What do you think the Ukrainians are suffering? Yes, protests begat beatings and jailings. But, many Russians have been willing to suffer this in order to show that they do not agree with the perpetration of genocide on Ukraine. Other Russians - many more - have been willing, even eager, to take the spoils of war (looted washing machines and cell phones and TVs, etc.) and to take the white car payment for a military death.

By contrast, Belarussians were willing to protest in the streets and go to jail and be beaten. As a result, they have managed to keep the Belarussian Army from invading Ukraine along side Russian forces. They would have managed to topple their dictator had not Putin decided to move Russian troops into Belarus and basically occupy Belarus. Lacking the strength to topple Russian forces, some Belarussians instead engage in sabotage and join the Ukrainian army. Yes, they have family also.

What do you think Iranian women suffer in protest?
What do you think Chinese are going to suffer in protest?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think “what it takes” is for every Russian city, town, and village to be a smoldering hole in the ground. The Russians are like cockroaches- they will find a way to survive even the end of days. Always have, always will. They will always win a war of attrition.

Are you Ukrainian? This would explain your thinking, otherwise you are just a danger to society. You have no idea how many Russians have nothing to do with this war and don’t support it - they just can’t do very much unfortunately.
Do you support all North Koreans or Iranians killed too? Sick!

This is very flawed thinking. we know a lot about what Russians think. Some very small number of citizens have spoken out against the war publicly. Hundreds of thousands of men have left the country to avoid the military draft but by and large Russian men abroad have not used their position of privilege and safety to protest the war. Some men in the military have protested their lack training and equipment, but not their mission; torture, war crimes, attacks on civilian objects and looting by Russian military are widespread indicating that there is little to no opposition to these tactics up and down the chain of command. Many Russian citizens , civilian and military families, express support for the war, using vile, genocidal, racist language. We know this from interviews and social media.

There is a great silent majority who 🙈🙉🙊, but the bystander is on the side of the perpetrator. It doesn’tbmatter if those silent Russians don’t like the war if they are not publicly saying so. No one can excuse them while Ukrainians are sitting in dark unheated house praying to hear from their kidnaped children and hoping to find the bodies of their disappeared relatives.

You have no idea. Russian men who fled still have family in Russia you moron, and the said families will suffer if the men speak out.
Why don’t North Koreans protest, huh? Because they will be thrown in jail that’s why.
You are afraid to say anything remotely non PC for the fear of being cancelled yet you preach to Russians who are risking much more than just a job loss?!
Hypocrisy typical of someone who never lived in an authoritarian country

This is the typical Russian excuse - “we cannot protest because we will suffer negative repercussions.”. What do you think the Ukrainians are suffering? Yes, protests begat beatings and jailings. But, many Russians have been willing to suffer this in order to show that they do not agree with the perpetration of genocide on Ukraine. Other Russians - many more - have been willing, even eager, to take the spoils of war (looted washing machines and cell phones and TVs, etc.) and to take the white car payment for a military death.

By contrast, Belarussians were willing to protest in the streets and go to jail and be beaten. As a result, they have managed to keep the Belarussian Army from invading Ukraine along side Russian forces. They would have managed to topple their dictator had not Putin decided to move Russian troops into Belarus and basically occupy Belarus. Lacking the strength to topple Russian forces, some Belarussians instead engage in sabotage and join the Ukrainian army. Yes, they have family also.

What do you think Iranian women suffer in protest?
What do you think Chinese are going to suffer in protest?

You are even more clueless than I thought
Belarus protests ended by defeat of protesters
They don’t openly participate in war because Lukashenko isn’t crazy and knows it will be suicide for him and his country
They may be forced to get involved though
gosh, you are such a typical clueless Westerner who has no idea what the cost of the protests is outside of democratic countries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Honestly, I think “what it takes” is for every Russian city, town, and village to be a smoldering hole in the ground. The Russians are like cockroaches- they will find a way to survive even the end of days. Always have, always will. They will always win a war of attrition.

Are you Ukrainian? This would explain your thinking, otherwise you are just a danger to society. You have no idea how many Russians have nothing to do with this war and don’t support it - they just can’t do very much unfortunately.
Do you support all North Koreans or Iranians killed too? Sick!

This is very flawed thinking. we know a lot about what Russians think. Some very small number of citizens have spoken out against the war publicly. Hundreds of thousands of men have left the country to avoid the military draft but by and large Russian men abroad have not used their position of privilege and safety to protest the war. Some men in the military have protested their lack training and equipment, but not their mission; torture, war crimes, attacks on civilian objects and looting by Russian military are widespread indicating that there is little to no opposition to these tactics up and down the chain of command. Many Russian citizens , civilian and military families, express support for the war, using vile, genocidal, racist language. We know this from interviews and social media.

There is a great silent majority who 🙈🙉🙊, but the bystander is on the side of the perpetrator. It doesn’tbmatter if those silent Russians don’t like the war if they are not publicly saying so. No one can excuse them while Ukrainians are sitting in dark unheated house praying to hear from their kidnaped children and hoping to find the bodies of their disappeared relatives.

You have no idea. Russian men who fled still have family in Russia you moron, and the said families will suffer if the men speak out.
Why don’t North Koreans protest, huh? Because they will be thrown in jail that’s why.
You are afraid to say anything remotely non PC for the fear of being cancelled yet you preach to Russians who are risking much more than just a job loss?!
Hypocrisy typical of someone who never lived in an authoritarian country

This is the typical Russian excuse - “we cannot protest because we will suffer negative repercussions.”. What do you think the Ukrainians are suffering? Yes, protests begat beatings and jailings. But, many Russians have been willing to suffer this in order to show that they do not agree with the perpetration of genocide on Ukraine. Other Russians - many more - have been willing, even eager, to take the spoils of war (looted washing machines and cell phones and TVs, etc.) and to take the white car payment for a military death.

By contrast, Belarussians were willing to protest in the streets and go to jail and be beaten. As a result, they have managed to keep the Belarussian Army from invading Ukraine along side Russian forces. They would have managed to topple their dictator had not Putin decided to move Russian troops into Belarus and basically occupy Belarus. Lacking the strength to topple Russian forces, some Belarussians instead engage in sabotage and join the Ukrainian army. Yes, they have family also.

What do you think Iranian women suffer in protest?
What do you think Chinese are going to suffer in protest?

You are even more clueless than I thought
Belarus protests ended by defeat of protesters
They don’t openly participate in war because Lukashenko isn’t crazy and knows it will be suicide for him and his country
They may be forced to get involved though
gosh, you are such a typical clueless Westerner who has no idea what the cost of the protests is outside of democratic countries

.

I think you are the clueless one. Open Belarus protests ended when it became clear that the Russian military were poised to and did move into Russia. But the movement has gone underground and played a key role in keeping Belarus troops out of the war. They have coordinated sabotage of train tracks in order to make trouble for Russian military movements. They report military movements to Ukraine and the West. They reach out to Belarus military and encourage them to refuse orders to attack Ukraine. They help Ukrainians who have been forcibly deported to Russia to return to the West and Ukraine thru Belarus. The Belarus opposition is the reason why, despite a lot of pressure from Putin, Lukashenko does not order the Belarus military to participate with the Russians against Ukraine: Lukashenko knows those orders would not be obeyed and the country would rise up against it. Similarly, Russians do not try to make a puppet governemnt play in Belarus (like they wanted to try in Ukraine and as they have done historically) and replace Lukashenko with someone who will obey Russia because the opposition has shown the ability to organize continuous, nationwide mass protest and the Belarus people have made clear they will participate. Belarussians are doing and risking what Russians will not and because of that they have prevented their country from going to war. As I said, Russians who fail to act, despite possible consequences, are on the side of the perpetrator of genocide and nothing excuses that.

I have every idea what the costs of protests outside the West are. I also have a very good idea what the cost of not protesting is. I studied, lived, worked and traveled widely in Eastern Europe and Russia over the last 3 decades, sometimes during conflict. I have met and talked with leaders of people who rose up in protest and freed Czechoslovakia and Poland and Serbia (from Milosevic, and there are many who still protest the Vucic regime and genocidaires in Serbia).

Protest works even if it takes time and comes at a high cost for some. Russians who are silent are supporting the regime and genocide. Mass Russian protest could end this war, but too many Russians are choosing their own personal comfort. Russians outside Russia have access to accurate information about the war and could easily protest but they don’t because, in truth, they are OK with Russia’s actions as long as they can maintain their high standard of living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it ends when Putin dies or is overthrown, and I don't think it's that remote of a possibility. We have an obvious example in Nicholas II of what happens to an autocratic Russian leader when he leads his country into a war for which they are militarily ill-prepared, exposed, and humiliated against "lesser" opponents, leading to economic ruin. Russians put up with a lot from their leaders until suddenly they don't. Putin knows this, hence the paranoia and the 50-foot tables.

Much of Western Europe has enjoyed a high quality of life with elected governments and expectations that these officials will comport their duties in a reasonable manner. When they don't, they get thrown out on their ear. And yet, Russia can't get its sh*t together. One thug after another, century after century. Ivan the Terrible. Stalin. Putin.

What is wrong with Russia? Serious question. One thug after another.

Aren't you being, er, rather generous to Europe? The continent that gave us Hitler? The governments that are behind untold number of atrocities in Africa and the Middle East? It's a bit much to hold them up as a picture of enlightenment.

Did you miss the part where we all strive to do better and not resort to fascist dictatorship? That matters ya know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel bad for Ukrainians dying- but the upside is lots of Russians are dying and having limbs blown off; the males that can are fleeing. Russian population was already on the decline; Putin literally threw gas on the demise of their society.

Excuse me, the upside?!

There are literally no military strategists who think Russia losing soldiers and equipment is a bad thing for the west.
If we knew the actual numbers of Russian KIA the west could run the number on the price per kill.

The US knows how much direct military hw it has given Ukraine. Say it is 100k kia- if that actual cost is under 20k per kill that is good ROI.
When you factor in equipment loss for Russia the roi goes up even higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it ends when Putin dies or is overthrown, and I don't think it's that remote of a possibility. We have an obvious example in Nicholas II of what happens to an autocratic Russian leader when he leads his country into a war for which they are militarily ill-prepared, exposed, and humiliated against "lesser" opponents, leading to economic ruin. Russians put up with a lot from their leaders until suddenly they don't. Putin knows this, hence the paranoia and the 50-foot tables.

Much of Western Europe has enjoyed a high quality of life with elected governments and expectations that these officials will comport their duties in a reasonable manner. When they don't, they get thrown out on their ear. And yet, Russia can't get its sh*t together. One thug after another, century after century. Ivan the Terrible. Stalin. Putin.

What is wrong with Russia? Serious question. One thug after another.

Aren't you being, er, rather generous to Europe? The continent that gave us Hitler? The governments that are behind untold number of atrocities in Africa and the Middle East? It's a bit much to hold them up as a picture of enlightenment.

Did you miss the part where we all strive to do better and not resort to fascist dictatorship? That matters ya know.

Do we tho?