MCPS magnet admission process should be sued following the lead from Virginia

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The point is to give highly able kids the opportunity for enrichment. Many of the highest performing kids already had that, which is why they were high in performance. But, what if the kids who didn't have A++ and Dr. Li and parents who were in academia, kids who demonstrated they were gifted and highly able but who didn't have the enrichment that some kids already had, what if these kids were able to get in? Frankly, this county needs more seats. But, parents who enrich have got to stop assuming their kid "deserves" a magnet space more than a kid who scored a few points below. Lottery + threshold is not ideal but the best way to accomplish that I suppose.

Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in? Also, not every kid who got in went to Dr Li's. Should they be penalized because of their skin color being associated with "prepping"?

The PP made a valid point. I don't know why you're bringing up "skin color."

You are being disingenuous when you claim it's not about "skin color" when the majority of people on here who are fine with discriminatory practices claim that Asian Americans students get in because they "prep" and go to Dr Li's classes.

So, answer the question: Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in?

A student who not only shows academic talent but who tries hard should actually be more challenged than a kid who doesn't want to try hard.

My kid is in a team sport, but isn't good at it, but doesn't want to practice to get better. Yesterday, my kid didn't get to play a whole lot and complained about it. I told DC that if they wanted more playing time they need to show that they are trying hard and need to practice more. Silence. Why should my DC get more playing time if DC isn't wiling to put in the effort?

I apply that to all areas in life. Why should you get anything if you aren't willing to work for it? I grew up lower income to immigrant parents and had to work for everything I have.

Sure, it would be awesome if MCPS could open more seats to magnets, but MCPS isn't doing that. What they are doing, and what many so-called progressive liberals are supporting, is using a policy that disadvantages one group over another.

And frankly, the same groups that MCPS and uber liberals are trying to push into magnets have a large achievement gap. No amount of pushing the kids to magents is going to close that gap. MCPS and uber liberals should focus on closing the achievement gap rather than raising URM representation in magnets by a couple of percentage points.

And if you say, "These kids aren't a monolith, they should be treated as individuals".. blah blah blah, well then you're a hypocrite because you seem to have no problem treating all Asian Americans as a monolith.

Your assumption that you know which kids "try hard" and which kids do not is ridiculous.

+1 How do you know which kids are trying hard? And just because you value hard work does not mean it should be or will be part of the criteria for determining enrichment/acceleration. I would personally argue if a kid has to work super hard, maybe he or she is inherently less gifted than the child who understands concepts with ease.

100

That said, hard work beats talent every time. Always has, Always will.

Always. Inherent giftedness is a racist concept that has been employed to keep people of color down for a long long time. Let's not fall for that nonsense again. Brown South Asian dad here with kids in magnet schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is to give highly able kids the opportunity for enrichment. Many of the highest performing kids already had that, which is why they were high in performance. But, what if the kids who didn't have A++ and Dr. Li and parents who were in academia, kids who demonstrated they were gifted and highly able but who didn't have the enrichment that some kids already had, what if these kids were able to get in? Frankly, this county needs more seats. But, parents who enrich have got to stop assuming their kid "deserves" a magnet space more than a kid who scored a few points below. Lottery + threshold is not ideal but the best way to accomplish that I suppose.

Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in? Also, not every kid who got in went to Dr Li's. Should they be penalized because of their skin color being associated with "prepping"?

The PP made a valid point. I don't know why you're bringing up "skin color."

You are being disingenuous when you claim it's not about "skin color" when the majority of people on here who are fine with discriminatory practices claim that Asian Americans students get in because they "prep" and go to Dr Li's classes.

So, answer the question: Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in?

A student who not only shows academic talent but who tries hard should actually be more challenged than a kid who doesn't want to try hard.

My kid is in a team sport, but isn't good at it, but doesn't want to practice to get better. Yesterday, my kid didn't get to play a whole lot and complained about it. I told DC that if they wanted more playing time they need to show that they are trying hard and need to practice more. Silence. Why should my DC get more playing time if DC isn't wiling to put in the effort?

I apply that to all areas in life. Why should you get anything if you aren't willing to work for it? I grew up lower income to immigrant parents and had to work for everything I have.

Sure, it would be awesome if MCPS could open more seats to magnets, but MCPS isn't doing that. What they are doing, and what many so-called progressive liberals are supporting, is using a policy that disadvantages one group over another.

And frankly, the same groups that MCPS and uber liberals are trying to push into magnets have a large achievement gap. No amount of pushing the kids to magents is going to close that gap. MCPS and uber liberals should focus on closing the achievement gap rather than raising URM representation in magnets by a couple of percentage points.

And if you say, "These kids aren't a monolith, they should be treated as individuals".. blah blah blah, well then you're a hypocrite because you seem to have no problem treating all Asian Americans as a monolith.

Your assumption that you know which kids "try hard" and which kids do not is ridiculous.

+1 How do you know which kids are trying hard? And just because you value hard work does not mean it should be or will be part of the criteria for determining enrichment/acceleration. I would personally argue if a kid has to work super hard, maybe he or she is inherently less gifted than the child who understands concepts with ease.

And how do you know which kid has been prepped and tutored? The vast majority of kids in magnets do have to try hard to do well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is to give highly able kids the opportunity for enrichment. Many of the highest performing kids already had that, which is why they were high in performance. But, what if the kids who didn't have A++ and Dr. Li and parents who were in academia, kids who demonstrated they were gifted and highly able but who didn't have the enrichment that some kids already had, what if these kids were able to get in? Frankly, this county needs more seats. But, parents who enrich have got to stop assuming their kid "deserves" a magnet space more than a kid who scored a few points below. Lottery + threshold is not ideal but the best way to accomplish that I suppose.

Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in? Also, not every kid who got in went to Dr Li's. Should they be penalized because of their skin color being associated with "prepping"?

The PP made a valid point. I don't know why you're bringing up "skin color."

You are being disingenuous when you claim it's not about "skin color" when the majority of people on here who are fine with discriminatory practices claim that Asian Americans students get in because they "prep" and go to Dr Li's classes.

So, answer the question: Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in?

A student who not only shows academic talent but who tries hard should actually be more challenged than a kid who doesn't want to try hard.

My kid is in a team sport, but isn't good at it, but doesn't want to practice to get better. Yesterday, my kid didn't get to play a whole lot and complained about it. I told DC that if they wanted more playing time they need to show that they are trying hard and need to practice more. Silence. Why should my DC get more playing time if DC isn't wiling to put in the effort?

I apply that to all areas in life. Why should you get anything if you aren't willing to work for it? I grew up lower income to immigrant parents and had to work for everything I have.

Sure, it would be awesome if MCPS could open more seats to magnets, but MCPS isn't doing that. What they are doing, and what many so-called progressive liberals are supporting, is using a policy that disadvantages one group over another.

And frankly, the same groups that MCPS and uber liberals are trying to push into magnets have a large achievement gap. No amount of pushing the kids to magents is going to close that gap. MCPS and uber liberals should focus on closing the achievement gap rather than raising URM representation in magnets by a couple of percentage points.

And if you say, "These kids aren't a monolith, they should be treated as individuals".. blah blah blah, well then you're a hypocrite because you seem to have no problem treating all Asian Americans as a monolith.

Your assumption that you know which kids "try hard" and which kids do not is ridiculous.

+1. The PP is assuming that students who aren’t in the 99 percentile didn’t try hard to get in. It’s likely they tried hard but didn’t have the resources (parents, tutoring money, etc) or guidance to know how to get those few extra percentile points. Or maybe the students are not even aware that such a magnet program exists and what the admission criteria are. Obviously students who receive skilled coaching are at an advantage.

To the poster who said that the Asian kids weren’t in a prep class - prepping does not only occur in a paid prep class: prepping can occur at home. IMO most of these 99 percentile kids receive enrichment outside of school … something 3rd and 5th graders would unlikely know to do on their own.

A lottery for the 80 percentile and above does not assume that Asians are a monolith.

The PP is also making a false dichotomy assumption that MCPS cannot both work on closing the achievement gap while also making sure magnet opportunities are not limited to those with the resources to enable their children to reach a certain percentile to get into magnet programs.

Again my kids are 99 percentile students. If I was only thinking about my own children, I might want to advocate for the lottery to be only for the 99 percentile, but I do think the solution MCPS has come up with for limited spaces seems reasonable.

And many people's assumption that Asian American students prep and go to Dr Li's tutoring is also ridiculous, and frankly, racist. But, I'm sure you think it's ok to make those assumptions because they are the wrong skin color to be treated with kid gloves.

Even if they don't go to "prep" classes, you say that they are still receiving "enrichment". By that do you mean parents who take their kids to the library, which is free? We used to go to the public library A LOT when my kids were younger, and most of the time, the majority of kids in there were Asian Americans. Last I checked, the public library was open to anyone.

MCPS can't seem to walk and chew gum at the same time, and the wide achievement gap is more of a stain and shame on MCPS than the low % of URM students in magnets. So, they really ought to spend their money and energy closing that gap, which is widening, rather than spending that effort, time, money or increasing that URM participation by single digit % point.

The false dichotomy is when MCPS lauds the overall high SAT scores and participation of the student body, then tries to punish the students who "prep" and "tutor" to get high test scores.

Why are you assuming I’m speaking about Asian American students? And who is this Dr Li person that you keep mentioning - is this a product placement ad?

I’m saying people who get 99 percentile (which may or may not include Asian Americans) usually got enrichment outside of school. To limit lottery to 99 percentile would exclude highly able but less resourced students.

You need to brush up on logic and learn what ‘false dichotomy’ means because how you use the term in your closing statement doesn’t make sense. But to address the point you make - to open opportunity does not mean MCPS is ‘punishing’ students who did not get selected in the lottery. When you play the lottery, if you lose, is the lottery punishing you?

Maybe you need to read from the top and brush up on this thread topic. Whenever the magnet admission topic comes up, some poster who probably thinks themself as super liberal, progressive, claims that Asian American students prep and go to Dr Li's tutor class.

[Anonymous]

DP. Not sure why you're making that claim. In this thread the first mention of Dr. Li did not even reference Asian-American students:

"But, what if the kids who didn't have A++ and Dr. Li and parents who were in academia, kids who demonstrated they were gifted and highly able but who didn't have the enrichment that some kids already had, what if these kids were able to get in?"

[Anonymous]

Many Magnet kids are not "prepped by Dr Li" kids. And even if they were, so what? Are we having quotas in swim teams teams for kids who swim in county pools versus private pools? Or in advanced school bands for kids who do not take private lessons and instead just learn on their own even if they sound bad?

Since when is studying or working hard considered bad? I do not consider your kids practicing basketball for hours bad and do not grudge them spots on the school team. So don't judge my kids practicing math or reading for hours, and let them get into the magnet programs.

[Anonymous]

The problem with all the focus on bridging the equity gap is all wrong. They keep focusing all over the country on these magnet programs or elite school admissions but that's not not relevant to the vast majority of students.

We know families with higher SES provide more opportunities consciously or unconsciously for learning. It could be as simple as they use a more extensive vocabulary or it could be as elaborate as 1:1 tutoring from an early age. These gaps already exist by the time school begins and it starts to grow. This advantage exists for all races if you are UMC or wealthy.

[Anonymous]

Some of you keep portraying the Asian families who have children in these classes as these elite, scheming individuals trying to game the system.

Most of the Asian families I know who have their kids in those classes are from immigrant families who do not understand the schooling system very well in the United States. They are trying to use those classes as a way to level the playing field to do the enrichment that they are not able to provide - not get an advantage.

If you are a white family who has been in this country for generations probably understand education here better because you went through it. You may also just talk about issues differently at the dinner table that perspectives that someone who immigrated here did not. You may take your child to see their grandparents who are reading the NYT and then discussing it with their grandchildren. Regular things you do in your life provide an advantage that these Asian parents cannot provide. Why is this so difficult to understand?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The point is to give highly able kids the opportunity for enrichment. Many of the highest performing kids already had that, which is why they were high in performance. But, what if the kids who didn't have A++ and Dr. Li and parents who were in academia, kids who demonstrated they were gifted and highly able but who didn't have the enrichment that some kids already had, what if these kids were able to get in? Frankly, this county needs more seats. But, parents who enrich have got to stop assuming their kid "deserves" a magnet space more than a kid who scored a few points below. Lottery + threshold is not ideal but the best way to accomplish that I suppose.

Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in? Also, not every kid who got in went to Dr Li's. Should they be penalized because of their skin color being associated with "prepping"?

The PP made a valid point. I don't know why you're bringing up "skin color."

You are being disingenuous when you claim it's not about "skin color" when the majority of people on here who are fine with discriminatory practices claim that Asian Americans students get in because they "prep" and go to Dr Li's classes.

So, answer the question: Why does a kid who didn't try hard to get in deserve to get in anymore than a kid who did try hard to get in?

A student who not only shows academic talent but who tries hard should actually be more challenged than a kid who doesn't want to try hard.

My kid is in a team sport, but isn't good at it, but doesn't want to practice to get better. Yesterday, my kid didn't get to play a whole lot and complained about it. I told DC that if they wanted more playing time they need to show that they are trying hard and need to practice more. Silence. Why should my DC get more playing time if DC isn't wiling to put in the effort?

I apply that to all areas in life. Why should you get anything if you aren't willing to work for it? I grew up lower income to immigrant parents and had to work for everything I have.

Sure, it would be awesome if MCPS could open more seats to magnets, but MCPS isn't doing that. What they are doing, and what many so-called progressive liberals are supporting, is using a policy that disadvantages one group over another.

And frankly, the same groups that MCPS and uber liberals are trying to push into magnets have a large achievement gap. No amount of pushing the kids to magents is going to close that gap. MCPS and uber liberals should focus on closing the achievement gap rather than raising URM representation in magnets by a couple of percentage points.

And if you say, "These kids aren't a monolith, they should be treated as individuals".. blah blah blah, well then you're a hypocrite because you seem to have no problem treating all Asian Americans as a monolith.

Your assumption that you know which kids "try hard" and which kids do not is ridiculous.

+1 How do you know which kids are trying hard? And just because you value hard work does not mean it should be or will be part of the criteria for determining enrichment/acceleration. I would personally argue if a kid has to work super hard, maybe he or she is inherently less gifted than the child who understands concepts with ease.

Except, those kids don’t understand with ease and don’t understand after prepping either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Virginia judge finds that the new admission policies at TJ high school are discriminatory. MCPS adopted the similar policies. Time to sue MCPS.

https://wtop.com/fairfax-county/2022/02/judge-new-...echnology-school-discriminate/

It's likely this will be overturned shortly.

It probably won’t because the central issue is a finding of fact that the school Board were open and clear about wanting to reduce Asian enrollment while increasing Black and Hispanic enrollment.

First, because the ruling is based on a finding of fact, it would require FCPS to obtain De Novo review up appeal which is unlikely.

Second, the finding of law is very straight forward and so would be the remedy. FCPS doesn’t have to be concerned about outcomes that disparately affect Asian students but they are required to have a race neutral process. As a result, the court would allow them to redesign their entrance policies so long as they can be facially neutral, meaning that they just cannot say openly that it is for this specific outcome that targets race.

That's not really true. It's hard to say with their motives were or if they really mattered since in the end the process was race blind and for this reason this decision will likely not stand.

[Anonymous]

I’ve had 2 kids go through all the magnet schools from
CHG (now CES) through HS. I don’t know one person who was ‘tutored’ to get in. I guess some kids are, but the curriculum at Blair & RMIB is hard. If you had to prep so much to get in, you probably aren’t going to do that well once there.