To those that believe the elderly should always make their own decisions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your sister live there? How can she tell you where you can or can’t sleep? I’m truly curious.

She does. She’s very OCD.

Then why are you there?

This makes no sense. You have a sister who lives with your parents. She can take care of them. Go home and enjoy your kids!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You don’t want to hear this, but you’re also part of the problem.

When your parent has a health issue—and it is a matter of when not if—that is the opening to transfer them to a nursing home. When they need to be discharged, that’s your opening to tell the social worker that you can’t care for them and it’s not safe for them to go home. That is the only time when you can actually move them. Yes, everyone at the hospital will try to pressure you to agree to take care of them, but you have to say no.

No way in hell would I enable all the crap you’re enabling. And if your sister wants to control the bedrooms at your parents house, she can take care of your parents! Problem solved! You’re an adult, you have agency. Stop acting like you have no choices in life.

That's easy for you to say PP. Parents make selfish, stupid decisions and it's not so easy to wash your hands of them.

We went through years of hell with our parents refusing to take meds, allow CNAs or cleaners in their own home - they preferred that we do all of that for them. They were forever the boss of the family and their own lives - they called the shots. I had angry relatives berating me - how can you let your parents live like that? why are you doing this to your parents? don't you care about your parents? etc. Plus the emotional toll of watching the slo-mo death process and the financial ruin that resulted. I couldn't sleep at night and dreaded the phone called of them being in pain and suffering. There should be process to euthanize people or at least have doctors stop prolonging the suffering. That's tough to say, but it's tougher to see slo mo death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, it's horribly frustrating. I had an elderly grandfather with increasing anxiety as he aged. He started calorie restricting my elderly and feable grandmother in the name of being "healthy" to the extent she dropped below 80 lbs. He wouldn't let people in the house because he didn't want their germs. He stopped using soap or letting my grandmother use soap because he didn’t want soap scum to clean. And on and on. He sounded totally normal in a 20 minute conversation, but was completely nuts if you looked closely.

Two of his kids didn't want to intervene at all because it was too much work and he seemed fine on the surface. They kept their heads in the sand. With his anxiety he was 100% against any changes or help, so there was no talking him into anything voluntary. No one could come in his house and he wouldnt go anywhere, so no helper could come in to monitor or support. Even when it got bad none of the kids wanted to separate their parents who had been together 50 years, even though he was slowly starving my grandmother in the name of "health." It was awful.

He was never mentally impaired enough to be declared incompetent, even though he continually made bizarre and dangerous decisions. The one that hurt the most was, after starving my grandmother to death, he refused to have a church service for her as she would have wanted because he would have been expected to make a $500 donation to the church and he thought it was wasteful. (He had several million in the bank.)

You get it!! I’m so sorry that you do. People do NOT understand what you and I do, that there is a grey area and that’s where things fall through the cracks in horrible ways. Yes, things can look fine on the surface, but things can be VERY wrong underneath. And people turn on the ones that see it and try to scream ‘fire’ because they want to keep their heads in the sand. Thank GOD my sister’s OCD only extends to her sleeping space. She is so good to my parents. She literally saved my mother’s life regarding this heart attack. So while I get frustrated, I also recognize how good a person she is and how valuable she is. My brother came to visit with $100 in his pocket, an expired driver’s license, and no real motivation to do anything without being told. But he walked 5 miles for a pack of cigarettes.

You are both crazy. To the PP whose grandfather was starving her grandmother, YOU should have reported him for elder abuse. You should have done something. You didn’t even have to talk to him, you just had to pick up the phone.

And OP, your sister is your parents live in caregiver. Why are you even martyring yourself to go over there before Christmas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, it's horribly frustrating. I had an elderly grandfather with increasing anxiety as he aged. He started calorie restricting my elderly and feable grandmother in the name of being "healthy" to the extent she dropped below 80 lbs. He wouldn't let people in the house because he didn't want their germs. He stopped using soap or letting my grandmother use soap because he didn’t want soap scum to clean. And on and on. He sounded totally normal in a 20 minute conversation, but was completely nuts if you looked closely.

Two of his kids didn't want to intervene at all because it was too much work and he seemed fine on the surface. They kept their heads in the sand. With his anxiety he was 100% against any changes or help, so there was no talking him into anything voluntary. No one could come in his house and he wouldnt go anywhere, so no helper could come in to monitor or support. Even when it got bad none of the kids wanted to separate their parents who had been together 50 years, even though he was slowly starving my grandmother in the name of "health." It was awful.

He was never mentally impaired enough to be declared incompetent, even though he continually made bizarre and dangerous decisions. The one that hurt the most was, after starving my grandmother to death, he refused to have a church service for her as she would have wanted because he would have been expected to make a $500 donation to the church and he thought it was wasteful. (He had several million in the bank.)

You get it!! I’m so sorry that you do. People do NOT understand what you and I do, that there is a grey area and that’s where things fall through the cracks in horrible ways. Yes, things can look fine on the surface, but things can be VERY wrong underneath. And people turn on the ones that see it and try to scream ‘fire’ because they want to keep their heads in the sand. Thank GOD my sister’s OCD only extends to her sleeping space. She is so good to my parents. She literally saved my mother’s life regarding this heart attack. So while I get frustrated, I also recognize how good a person she is and how valuable she is. My brother came to visit with $100 in his pocket, an expired driver’s license, and no real motivation to do anything without being told. But he walked 5 miles for a pack of cigarettes.

You are both crazy. To the PP whose grandfather was starving her grandmother, YOU should have reported him for elder abuse. You should have done something. You didn’t even have to talk to him, you just had to pick up the phone.

And OP, your sister is your parents live in caregiver. Why are you even martyring yourself to go over there before Christmas?

Yes, reporting Grandpa to the state would be very helpful. The government is always helpful. Then you can figure out how to manage the two of them in different locations and that should be cheap too. You can pay a lawyer for Gramps, that's cheap and then have to manage a government social worker calling the shots. Great idea pp.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Filial Responsibility laws. Surprisingly widespread.

https://www.specialneedsalliance.org/blog/when-parents-cant-pay/

It's actually more complicated than this blog post describes, in my admittedly brief research on the issue. The PA 2012 case this blog references seems like the only one getting prominent attention. Usually, Medicaid precludes these kinds of things, although that requires establishing eligibility for long-term care, which I know is not a walk in the park.

This article lays it out well: filial responsibility laws are triggered in the (relatively rare) cases in which a person who doesn't qualify for Medicaid is admitted to a nursing home and doesn't pay the bill. That's not going to happen overnight, nor by the mysterious processes you seem to think they will.

https://www.agingcare.com/articles/filial-responsibility-and-medicaid-197746.htm

I get that these issues are painful and complex, but your assertion that the state is going to come after you if you don't bleed yourself dry to support your abusive elderly parents is a gross exaggeration, at best. Filial responsibility laws exist, yes, but there are ways to inform yourself and work to prevent them being triggered.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your sister live there? How can she tell you where you can or can’t sleep? I’m truly curious.

She does. She’s very OCD.

Then why are you there?

This makes no sense. You have a sister who lives with your parents. She can take care of them. Go home and enjoy your kids!

Plus, she is apparently exceptionally controlling. And yet OP is going to go sleep on the couch *for months* to help. No sense at all.

[Anonymous]

I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

DP, but I think you're pointing out a larger problem around adults who require guardianship, not limited to elderly, although they're certainly one example. It is generally very, very, VERY hard to appoint a legal guardian for someone over the age of 18 absent clear and persistent evidence that they can't care for themselves. It can't be a one-off or even occur several times. We're talking *years* and even then, requires someone with the legal means to pursue guardianship. I'm a psychologist who used to work inpatient at a state psych hospital, and the degree to which this happens to individuals with severe mental illness is heartbreaking. The legal, policy-related, and philosophical issues are extraordinarily complex in a given situation. Heck, it's not easy even in cases of child maltreatment to obtain guardianship, when most folks assume it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does your sister live there? How can she tell you where you can or can’t sleep? I’m truly curious.

She does. She’s very OCD.

Then why are you there?

This makes no sense. You have a sister who lives with your parents. She can take care of them. Go home and enjoy your kids!

It’s too much for her to do so and work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, yes, it's horribly frustrating. I had an elderly grandfather with increasing anxiety as he aged. He started calorie restricting my elderly and feable grandmother in the name of being "healthy" to the extent she dropped below 80 lbs. He wouldn't let people in the house because he didn't want their germs. He stopped using soap or letting my grandmother use soap because he didn’t want soap scum to clean. And on and on. He sounded totally normal in a 20 minute conversation, but was completely nuts if you looked closely.

Two of his kids didn't want to intervene at all because it was too much work and he seemed fine on the surface. They kept their heads in the sand. With his anxiety he was 100% against any changes or help, so there was no talking him into anything voluntary. No one could come in his house and he wouldnt go anywhere, so no helper could come in to monitor or support. Even when it got bad none of the kids wanted to separate their parents who had been together 50 years, even though he was slowly starving my grandmother in the name of "health." It was awful.

He was never mentally impaired enough to be declared incompetent, even though he continually made bizarre and dangerous decisions. The one that hurt the most was, after starving my grandmother to death, he refused to have a church service for her as she would have wanted because he would have been expected to make a $500 donation to the church and he thought it was wasteful. (He had several million in the bank.)

You get it!! I’m so sorry that you do. People do NOT understand what you and I do, that there is a grey area and that’s where things fall through the cracks in horrible ways. Yes, things can look fine on the surface, but things can be VERY wrong underneath. And people turn on the ones that see it and try to scream ‘fire’ because they want to keep their heads in the sand. Thank GOD my sister’s OCD only extends to her sleeping space. She is so good to my parents. She literally saved my mother’s life regarding this heart attack. So while I get frustrated, I also recognize how good a person she is and how valuable she is. My brother came to visit with $100 in his pocket, an expired driver’s license, and no real motivation to do anything without being told. But he walked 5 miles for a pack of cigarettes.

You are both crazy. To the PP whose grandfather was starving her grandmother, YOU should have reported him for elder abuse. You should have done something. You didn’t even have to talk to him, you just had to pick up the phone.

And OP, your sister is your parents live in caregiver. Why are you even martyring yourself to go over there before Christmas?

Because my mother had a heart attack and a stroke, moron. My sister works and helped care for them when they could do for themselves. Both no longer can. Which is why I tried to get them back with more family BEFORE this happened. My sister should not shoulder the entire burden. Are you really THAT selfish that you would put it ALL on a sibling? Probably so

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

Yes, for sure I’ve encountered those situations. Unless a person has significant dementia or is truly psychotic they generally retain the right to make terrible decisions. It’s a tricky balance and I don’t envy the doctors and judges who together make these calls. In the few times in my work where an elder did have a guardian appointed and that guardian forced something like a nursing home or a move the elder often did not thrive in the new setting. It makes kids feel like they have done the right thing to have a parent miserable, angry, and depressed (but safe) in a nursing home rather than somewhat content (and at high risk of death) while home alone. I don’t entirely understand. I’ve spent plenty of time in nursing homes, and personally I’d rather take my chances with a fall and lingering death on the floor alone. So I give my own parents (and gave my clients, where they were legally competent) the same respect for their preferences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

Yes, for sure I’ve encountered those situations. Unless a person has significant dementia or is truly psychotic they generally retain the right to make terrible decisions. It’s a tricky balance and I don’t envy the doctors and judges who together make these calls. In the few times in my work where an elder did have a guardian appointed and that guardian forced something like a nursing home or a move the elder often did not thrive in the new setting. It makes kids feel like they have done the right thing to have a parent miserable, angry, and depressed (but safe) in a nursing home rather than somewhat content (and at high risk of death) while home alone. I don’t entirely understand. I’ve spent plenty of time in nursing homes, and personally I’d rather take my chances with a fall and lingering death on the floor alone. So I give my own parents (and gave my clients, where they were legally competent) the same respect for their preferences.

I can't with this. So the parent has the 'sads' but is safe, warm and fed. EVIL KIDS, clearly. I guess I should let my parents live in a home they can't afford, have it sold out from under them to pay for debt they incur. Maybe they can lose their last asset that can pay for their care, but hey, they are happy so why not, right?

This is why I can't stand social workers. You are all about 'the feels' and not the practicality of the situation. Did you NOT read the earlier post about the poster who said her grandfather starved her grandmother to death? Do you let toddlers wander outside in snowstorms in a diaper because they might tantrum in warm clothing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

Yes, for sure I’ve encountered those situations. Unless a person has significant dementia or is truly psychotic they generally retain the right to make terrible decisions. It’s a tricky balance and I don’t envy the doctors and judges who together make these calls. In the few times in my work where an elder did have a guardian appointed and that guardian forced something like a nursing home or a move the elder often did not thrive in the new setting. It makes kids feel like they have done the right thing to have a parent miserable, angry, and depressed (but safe) in a nursing home rather than somewhat content (and at high risk of death) while home alone. I don’t entirely understand. I’ve spent plenty of time in nursing homes, and personally I’d rather take my chances with a fall and lingering death on the floor alone. So I give my own parents (and gave my clients, where they were legally competent) the same respect for their preferences.

I can't with this. So the parent has the 'sads' but is safe, warm and fed. EVIL KIDS, clearly. I guess I should let my parents live in a home they can't afford, have it sold out from under them to pay for debt they incur. Maybe they can lose their last asset that can pay for their care, but hey, they are happy so why not, right?

This is why I can't stand social workers. You are all about 'the feels' and not the practicality of the situation. Did you NOT read the earlier post about the poster who said her grandfather starved her grandmother to death? Do you let toddlers wander outside in snowstorms in a diaper because they might tantrum in warm clothing?

I’m the psychologist PP above: you’re either not understanding or choosing not to consider adults’ agency in these scenarios. Once someone turns 18 and is a legal adult, the standards for obtaining legal guardianship are very, very high. You can debate whether they should be so stringent, but hating on social workers is unfair and misplaced anger. They don’t make the laws.

The grandfather starving the grandmother is similar to intimate partner violence scenarios, in which the abused partner chooses to stay. There’s almost nothing another adult can do, legally, to force that person to leave. Someone upthread suggested the grandchild in that case should have reported her grandfather to adult protective services, only to be told by someone else (you?) that would have meant more problems. These situations are rarely as straightforward as they may seem to be from the outside.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was one of those social workers who investigate people for elder abuse. What I did in reality wasn’t anything like that sounds. Someone would call us worried about an elder, and I’d go figure out what was going on, and do everything I could to help. I did lots of listening, hand holding, phone calling insurance plans, finding Medicaid beds in assisted living, lining up care givers, and finding mental health providers. Oh, and lots of cleaning for people with hoarding disorders. My clients were almost always mentally ill or had some level of dementia. It was truly, truly rare to have a situation where some one was abusing an elder for malicious reasons. It was almost always a situation where physical health and mental health decline simply made the family system collapse. Unless there was violence or outright theft of assets no one was ever “brought up on charges” or “charged with elder abuse.” We were just social workers, not police, and the only tools we had were help.

OP, I know this is hard. I hope you find some peace and some enjoyment this holiday season.

Haven't you encountered the elder who is able to present as absolutely logical, or who at least is able to present as legally competent but exercises rights to his/her own decision making? And perhaps a spouse who is totally on board, or presents as being totally onboard? I'm thinking of 2 situations. One where an elder relative wanted help from adult services but due to problems with decision making let others make the call, and when investigated still wanted the help but was deemed too capable (his physician, nurse, and the social worker they worked with knew better, but adult services gave a thumbs down). And one involving hoarding, some long standing MH diagnosis where treatment is refused but where the mental situation is not dire enough to warrant hospitalization, even though the hoarding has long reached the point where it is life and health threatening.

Yes, for sure I’ve encountered those situations. Unless a person has significant dementia or is truly psychotic they generally retain the right to make terrible decisions. It’s a tricky balance and I don’t envy the doctors and judges who together make these calls. In the few times in my work where an elder did have a guardian appointed and that guardian forced something like a nursing home or a move the elder often did not thrive in the new setting. It makes kids feel like they have done the right thing to have a parent miserable, angry, and depressed (but safe) in a nursing home rather than somewhat content (and at high risk of death) while home alone. I don’t entirely understand. I’ve spent plenty of time in nursing homes, and personally I’d rather take my chances with a fall and lingering death on the floor alone. So I give my own parents (and gave my clients, where they were legally competent) the same respect for their preferences.

I can't with this. So the parent has the 'sads' but is safe, warm and fed. EVIL KIDS, clearly. I guess I should let my parents live in a home they can't afford, have it sold out from under them to pay for debt they incur. Maybe they can lose their last asset that can pay for their care, but hey, they are happy so why not, right?

This is why I can't stand social workers. You are all about 'the feels' and not the practicality of the situation. Did you NOT read the earlier post about the poster who said her grandfather starved her grandmother to death? Do you let toddlers wander outside in snowstorms in a diaper because they might tantrum in warm clothing?

I’m the psychologist PP above: you’re either not understanding or choosing not to consider adults’ agency in these scenarios. Once someone turns 18 and is a legal adult, the standards for obtaining legal guardianship are very, very high. You can debate whether they should be so stringent, but hating on social workers is unfair and misplaced anger. They don’t make the laws.

The grandfather starving the grandmother is similar to intimate partner violence scenarios, in which the abused partner chooses to stay. There’s almost nothing another adult can do, legally, to force that person to leave. Someone upthread suggested the grandchild in that case should have reported her grandfather to adult protective services, only to be told by someone else (you?) that would have meant more problems. These situations are rarely as straightforward as they may seem to be from the outside.

+1 You are scapegoating here. The laws are what they are. People are very worried about the rights of mentally ill and cognitively impaired so their are laws protecting them that are very strict. I'm sure the same persons scapegoating here, would be horrified if the laws were less strict too. Get familiar with the legal rights of the elderly before you bash and scapegoat.