Professor here -- curious to hear parents' perspective on this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I they should get their tuition back, because then you'll see more slacking off.

I think part of the problem is that many kids are loaded with tutors in high school. Then they get into a top school and they're on their own. I think parents shouldn't start the tutoring in the first place so that kids end up in colleges they can handle and they learn to count on themselves.

I think this is so on point. When we were in FCPS, it seemed like my kids with zero tutors (other than us advanced degreed parents) were an anomaly. It was almost like the K-12 teachers started to teach to the tutor. Meaning, it was assumed you would get your kids a tutor for each subject if they needed any help, and the classroom was merely a place to reinforce the concepts they should already know. That we never hired a tutor seemed to strike some teachers as odd, like who does that? Then we moved away and school became a lot more normal. Better.

Oh! Now I understand the attitude of the teachers of not teaching but simply checking that they already know it. It drove me nuts and I found those expensive tutors were often just students right out of college or retired people who didn’t have the curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I they should get their tuition back, because then you'll see more slacking off.

I think part of the problem is that many kids are loaded with tutors in high school. Then they get into a top school and they're on their own. I think parents shouldn't start the tutoring in the first place so that kids end up in colleges they can handle and they learn to count on themselves.

I think this is so on point. When we were in FCPS, it seemed like my kids with zero tutors (other than us advanced degreed parents) were an anomaly. It was almost like the K-12 teachers started to teach to the tutor. Meaning, it was assumed you would get your kids a tutor for each subject if they needed any help, and the classroom was merely a place to reinforce the concepts they should already know. That we never hired a tutor seemed to strike some teachers as odd, like who does that? Then we moved away and school became a lot more normal. Better.

I think there's a middle ground here. My DS worked with a tutor for French and DD is now for calculus. In both cases they got to a point where they were really struggling and the help from the teacher was insufficient. DS really did NOT want a tutor, seemed to think he meant he wasn't good enough. Then he tried it and learned that it really helped. Now, he's in college and knows that it's OK to ask for help. College students definitely use tutors. On all the tours they tout their academic success centers, writing centers, etc. There's lots of help but the student has to feel OK asking for it and lots of kids who were super-achievers in HS may not be willing to ask.

Or in the case of my DD who has a tutor for Honors Pre-Calc this year, her main teacher just isn't good. Notorious for not being a good teacher. We hired a tutor since the main teacher isn't doing a good job of reaching my daughter.

That too! And that definitely happens in college too. It's good for kids to learn that faced with a crappy teacher or just difficulty learning material that seeking outside help is the right thing to do, not a sign of weakness.

[Anonymous]

You can educate your students who do show up. And they will be empowered with that info if they ever need it, or their friends. Good old word of mouth. Spend a class going over the options and resources. I'm sure someone will benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

But there's more to it than just learning the material. We are preparing these kids for the real world. When they're in the working world, there will be deadlines, and those deadlines have meaning. The Court issues a briefing schedule, and the brief needs to be filed on time. The Court doesn't care if you were having a bad day. The IRS wants your client's tax returns filed on time. Even if it's just your boss asking for a report or a speech on a certain date. If you delay, they'll be late or unprepared for something they need to do, and now your advancement prospects don't look so great. I've had employees who could write the most beautiful documents, but they were never on time, so they were worthless to me. In many areas, speed and timeliness is just as important as content.

I'm a professor. I allow extensions. The argument PP makes above comes up far too often and it is mostly BS. The deadline examples you have given are for things that are generally long-term tasks where people are doing a job that they know how to do. Also, if the lawyer gets too ill, they do file paperwork to ask for an extension. If the tax return is for a large business, they've been working on it for months and while a few days or a week of illness isn't great, it's not going to mean the return is late.

Additionally, I worked in industry before I went back to get a PhD and become a professor. In the industry I worked in, if something wasn't going to be ready on time, you would say to your boss or client (in a nicer way than I'm saying here) "X isn't going to be done on Jan 11th, However, if we don't run into any snags, I believe it will be done by Jan 21st so we should plan for a meeting then".

I'm sure there are some speechwriters who have tight turn-arounds where they're expected to produce something in a matter of hours, but I think this is a rare type of job. Also, the person who takes that job probably knows the job duties will require them to work with quick turn-arounds regardless of circumstance.

Contrast that with a homework assignment I handed out on Monday, where you just learned the content last week (or on that very day), and I expect it to be turned in by Friday or the following Monday. I have to have some rules about extensions, because eventually I do have to grade things and I have over 100 students (and for some classes over 200). I don't want to be fishing out grading keys or having to grade a ton of assignments at the last minute. So for practical reasons, I don't allow endless extensions. However, I do allow students to turn in work late and don't penalize them at all.

Also, for the person who complained that we make it too easy on the students by dropping their two lowest homework grades - have you never had an assignment you messed up? I would love for the students to redo the assignment and turn it in again. However, that really is a nightmare to keep track of, so dropping the lowest couple grades seems sensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at UVA who has struggled with mental health issues.

To be perfectly blunt, some reasonable accommodations are appropriate. But there comes a time where if a student is that dramatically incapacitated, they need to withdraw until they can function again. And also, you cannot allow someone with mental illnesses to use it as a crutch.

There are limits to accommodations. At some point, there have to be natural consequences, and they may not always be pleasant.

I mean, in the work world there will be limits to tolerance for this behavior.

+1 you can’t lower your standards. If people aren’t up to it, for one reason or another, they need to make choices.

Perhaps relatedly, this is why I hate people trying to get into the “best“ ppossible school – sometimes people are better off being higher up the food chain at a school a step down.

PP here — I say this as someone who has worked in academic environments, and as someone who has two DSs, one who is at the tippy top school and can handle it, and one who is doing well but consciously chose a school a step down.

Yep! My older child is quite capable but went to a pressure cooker high school and intentionally stepped down for college. She went somewhere intellectual but not T20 and not a pressure cooker. She has almost all A’s now (in her soon year). She feels stimulated by the environmentbut not overwhelmed or feeling the need to compete. She is doing what she loves and learning to learn, not to get A’s. Beat choice ever!

Where does your DD attend? After seeing my DD struggle this year (first real year of high school and all the stress it entails), I definitely think a nurturing college (*gasp* even a CTCL!) would be best for her. No high pressure college.

She goes to Smith, which I know as an all women’s college is not for everyone. I would think most smaller, LAC are similar. I have been so impressed with her classes and how much she loves the meaning environment. She regularly attends office hours for certain professors just to say hi and chat about the class topics. She is so engaged.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at UVA who has struggled with mental health issues.

To be perfectly blunt, some reasonable accommodations are appropriate. But there comes a time where if a student is that dramatically incapacitated, they need to withdraw until they can function again. And also, you cannot allow someone with mental illnesses to use it as a crutch.

There are limits to accommodations. At some point, there have to be natural consequences, and they may not always be pleasant.

I mean, in the work world there will be limits to tolerance for this behavior.

+1 you can’t lower your standards. If people aren’t up to it, for one reason or another, they need to make choices.

Perhaps relatedly, this is why I hate people trying to get into the “best“ ppossible school – sometimes people are better off being higher up the food chain at a school a step down.

PP here — I say this as someone who has worked in academic environments, and as someone who has two DSs, one who is at the tippy top school and can handle it, and one who is doing well but consciously chose a school a step down.

Yep! My older child is quite capable but went to a pressure cooker high school and intentionally stepped down for college. She went somewhere intellectual but not T20 and not a pressure cooker. She has almost all A’s now (in her soon year). She feels stimulated by the environmentbut not overwhelmed or feeling the need to compete. She is doing what she loves and learning to learn, not to get A’s. Beat choice ever!

Where does your DD attend? After seeing my DD struggle this year (first real year of high school and all the stress it entails), I definitely think a nurturing college (*gasp* even a CTCL!) would be best for her. No high pressure college.

She goes to Smith, which I know as an all women’s college is not for everyone. I would think most smaller, LAC are similar. I have been so impressed with her classes and how much she loves the meaning environment. She regularly attends office hours for certain professors just to say hi and chat about the class topics. She is so engaged.

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a child who had severe mental health issues during Covid. Now college frosh. I paid out of pocket something like $600 for an insurance policy to cover my tuition fees in the event that our child has to take time off. The college advertised this to me. Perhaps this type of insurance should be more widespread. Agree wi PPs about need to maintain standards.

Can you share information about this insurance? What does it cover/not cover?

[Anonymous]

At some point enough is enough and adults need to do their work. Stop babying your kids in MS and HS and giving them an out for doing their assignments. COVID is zero excuse. As a parent you need to instill the values that assignments are turned in on time, if you need help ask, if you need more time, ask and help them as needed. Or, stop complaining when your kids fail out of school (baring real mental health issues, not this fake covid stuff) as you and the schools failed them early on. And, stop relying on the schools to parent your kids. This is a great teacher but teaches should be teaching not parenting adults.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

High school teacher here. I've noticed the same trends among students, but their parents also are different.

These kids have been shielded from failure for years. There is no sense or urgency and not much personal responsibility because there is no failing in high school: if they don't turn something in or don't study sufficiently, the teachers give second chances or retakes. If the student doesn't like the grade he/she earns and parents complain, admin will ensure that the teacher raises the grade. And the parents see the teacher as the one responsible for the child's grades, not the child herself. Everyone is intelligent and everyone should go to college, and if there are any struggles, accommodations and exceptions must be put into place.

Even ten years ago it was starting to change, but prior to that, things were much different.

This is the environment where your students were cooked and formed. They are your customers and they assume you will provide the product (grades).

Another high school teacher here. I was going to post almost exactly the same thing but PP beat me to it. I teach a low-level elective math class for juniors and seniors. Their parents or counselors make them sign up for the class to show four years of math on their transcript, even though they might have passed the prerequisite class by no more than a couple of percentage points after retakes and other "remediation" opportunities designed to boost pass rates.

Many of these students will apply to our state flagship and other similar institutions. Those institutions won't accept them, but some school somewhere will. And when they're left to their own devices and paying tons of money, the real trouble will start.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

But there's more to it than just learning the material. We are preparing these kids for the real world. When they're in the working world, there will be deadlines, and those deadlines have meaning. The Court issues a briefing schedule, and the brief needs to be filed on time. The Court doesn't care if you were having a bad day. The IRS wants your client's tax returns filed on time. Even if it's just your boss asking for a report or a speech on a certain date. If you delay, they'll be late or unprepared for something they need to do, and now your advancement prospects don't look so great. I've had employees who could write the most beautiful documents, but they were never on time, so they were worthless to me. In many areas, speed and timeliness is just as important as content.

I'm a professor. I allow extensions. The argument PP makes above comes up far too often and it is mostly BS. The deadline examples you have given are for things that are generally long-term tasks where people are doing a job that they know how to do. Also, if the lawyer gets too ill, they do file paperwork to ask for an extension. If the tax return is for a large business, they've been working on it for months and while a few days or a week of illness isn't great, it's not going to mean the return is late.

Additionally, I worked in industry before I went back to get a PhD and become a professor. In the industry I worked in, if something wasn't going to be ready on time, you would say to your boss or client (in a nicer way than I'm saying here) "X isn't going to be done on Jan 11th, However, if we don't run into any snags, I believe it will be done by Jan 21st so we should plan for a meeting then".

I'm sure there are some speechwriters who have tight turn-arounds where they're expected to produce something in a matter of hours, but I think this is a rare type of job. Also, the person who takes that job probably knows the job duties will require them to work with quick turn-arounds regardless of circumstance.

Contrast that with a homework assignment I handed out on Monday, where you just learned the content last week (or on that very day), and I expect it to be turned in by Friday or the following Monday. I have to have some rules about extensions, because eventually I do have to grade things and I have over 100 students (and for some classes over 200). I don't want to be fishing out grading keys or having to grade a ton of assignments at the last minute. So for practical reasons, I don't allow endless extensions. However, I do allow students to turn in work late and don't penalize them at all.

Also, for the person who complained that we make it too easy on the students by dropping their two lowest homework grades - have you never had an assignment you messed up? I would love for the students to redo the assignment and turn it in again. However, that really is a nightmare to keep track of, so dropping the lowest couple grades seems sensible.

This is BS, and could only come from an academic who doesn't work in the real world. I honestly don't see any of these distinctions you are trying to draw. People who consistently miss deadlines don't work very long (unless they work in academia). It is one thing for a lawyer to be seriously ill (and even then it is up to the lawyer to find someone who can do the work) but you don't ask the Court for an extension because the lawyer had anxiety or felt overwhelmed.

If you allow extensions for any reason with no penalty, you are not preparing these kids for the real world. My kid's high school doesn't even do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think some of the posters are confusing mental illness like depression or anxiety and learning disabilities like ADHD with immaturity, laziness or lack of motivation. Failure might help the immature or unmotivated but it does nothing to help the mental health or learning disability group. It’s like expecting the kid in a wheelchair to get out of and run a lap. When he drags himself along the track taking 10 times longer you give him an F and laugh at him.

It is significantly harder for these kids to succeed and they need help.

There are resources for kids with real, diagnosed issues. At some point, it is on them (or their parents to help them) avail themselves of those resources. In any case, how many kids who have these types of diagnoses get to college without knowing about it? If they have help and still can't get it together, then they need to take a break and figure out.

This cuts the other way, too. There are kids who are immature and lazy who are using anxiety as an "out." Anxiety is normal if you've never had to meet deadlines or be responsible for your own failures before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I they should get their tuition back, because then you'll see more slacking off.

I think part of the problem is that many kids are loaded with tutors in high school. Then they get into a top school and they're on their own. I think parents shouldn't start the tutoring in the first place so that kids end up in colleges they can handle and they learn to count on themselves.

AGREE.

I come from a MC family and was shocked when I learned (at a W school in Montgomery County) that when rich kids encounter any difficulty, their parents hire a one one one tutor.
With intensive one-on-one remediation, the kid usually pulls up their grade. But that is in no way a level playing field.

They have to either do the work, or ask the teacher for extra help (at lunch, like my kid did) OR accept that they are not going to a T 20school.
Those outcomes are ALL okay.

People on this site even discuss how to find tutors for kids away at college. People, this is not a sustainable plan longterm. Accept the child you have.

Please, enough with this gossip. I don't know a single W parent of my kid's friends who did this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t have any answers, but as the parent of a college student who is battling panic attacks and depression—some weeks better, some weeks worse—I want to thank the professors here who recognize these issues and are trying their best to help. My child certainly doesn’t expect to be given a break on grades, etc., but a little understanding and mutual respect does go a long way. She is truly trying her best to function in a system that is generally unforgiving. It is difficult for young adults who are eager to be independent to instead be struggling in a way that often requires help from counselors, psychiatrists, school staff/faculty, and parents.

Please know that your efforts to understand are greatly appreciated.

Maybe a child like this needs to attend college from home? OR at least when their existing support network is very close by.

At some point are you all just denying the severity of your child's disability? Instead of communicating that she can achieve her goals, but it may take a different path than some of her friends.

(PS-My sister is a physical therapist. She said that sometimes she feels so bad for preschoolers whose parents are forcing them to try to do things that they are not physically capable of. They think if the kid just tries harder or tries the latest thing they read online or they switch therapists. But it is almost abusive that they won't accept their child's limitations.) I am not saying that is analogous...but sometimes you have to stop pushing the boulder uphill and find an easier path.

I had severe anxiety and depression in college. This was in the 90s. Dropped out of one school, took a couple of years off and tried it again. It was better until it wasn’t anymore. Two professors agreed to give me an “incomplete” instead of whatever low grade I would have gotten and gave me until the end of the next semester to submit the papers I couldn’t write. I thought that was so kind. I ended up not being able to do that work and withdrew.

I went home and ended up getting some pretty intense therapy and medication, and then found a “real” job as office support staff (compared with the food service type work I’d been doing). Eventually I went back to college again in my mid-20s and nailed it. Went on to additional academic and professional success.

In retrospect I can see I was not ready for college. Both my parents have advanced degrees and it was expected of me so I did it, but I didn’t have any interest in it. I went to a big state school, highly rated, and was so lost there. I think that happens to more kids these days who have so much more pressure than we did 25-30 years ago. Getting to college is the goal then it isn’t clear what to do once they get there. And COVID makes it so much worse.

I’m rambling but my point is I think PP is onto something. The best thing I did was step away from college when I wasn’t ready for it. And my parents let me do it. They didn’t support me financially after I left school, other than the few months that I was incapacitated with depression and anxiety (which was huge support, I don’t mean to discount that). But they let me find my way when I was ready for it.

[Anonymous]

Where do these self-congratulating professors work? At DC's college, there is no support from the professors. They draw some weird satisfaction from failing a certain percentage of students. I am in agreement with setting a high standard. But efforts should be rewarded somewhat in college. A student turning in every assignment on time shouldn't get a surprise F after the final. Some of those professors only teach yet can't answer students' questions. A significant percentage of "professors" are not qualified to teach in classes for STEM majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at UVA who has struggled with mental health issues.

To be perfectly blunt, some reasonable accommodations are appropriate. But there comes a time where if a student is that dramatically incapacitated, they need to withdraw until they can function again. And also, you cannot allow someone with mental illnesses to use it as a crutch.

There are limits to accommodations. At some point, there have to be natural consequences, and they may not always be pleasant.

I mean, in the work world there will be limits to tolerance for this behavior.

NP. Thank you for posting this, PP, especially as you have the perspective of a parent with a child who has been in the boat the OP describes, possibly.

The part I put into bold is a particular concern, to me. I'm glad colleges are so much more attuned to students' mental health needs now than in the past, and I'm glad colleges are, to be blunt, cutting more slack (perhaps I should say, providing more opportunities to get help/make up work) than in the past. But the issue of preparation for the working world is a very real issue indeed. Employers are not going to be remotely as understanding. Yes, employers also are more attuned to mental health issues but are also going to handle those through health insurance, wellness programs and human resources offices, and without the repeated chances at fixing problematic work product. My DC is in college now, and does not have mental health issues, but is a "mother hen" to several friends who deal with issues like the professor OP describes. And I despair for those kids' mental health once they're employed somewhere that won't accept anxiety as a reason for missing work or not completing work products or tasks. I am NOT dismissing anxiety-- it's real. But like PP says--there will be limits to what the working world will do, and these students could get a horrible awakening. Not sure what the solution is, other than, as OP notes, making it easier to withdraw and regroup, and easier to re-enter college at the same point where one left, in terms of credits etc.

Yeah, this is just not real world work place environment. I'm in the midst of trying to help an attorney who is constantly missing deadlines, not answering emails, and basically ghosting for days on end. When we finally get in touch, she states that she has mental health issues that need accommodations and is looking for modified hours to meet her schedule. In law, that is not happening. You either meet deadlines and learn to manage your workload or you go into another field. No partner, firm, or client will stand for an emotionally unbalanced attorney. And I'm sure that's the same in many other fields (finance, medicine, security, etc.). So to the above, we need to teach children how to manage and deal with their workload in a reasonable manner. And how to do it on their own so that they are prepared for the working world. Parents need to set reasonable expectations for these kids to allow them to meet more attainable, age appropriate goals (i.e, not perfection).