Professor here -- curious to hear parents' perspective on this

[Anonymous]

Just look at the threads under colleges and universities. The parents expect their kids to be the perfect student, attend the highest rated schools so they can brag to their friends how their kid is attending xyz university but at what cost?

[Anonymous]

When my kid moved into the dorm, I asked for the RA’s phone number. I said, don’t worry, I would only use it in an emergency.

I never used it, but liked the security of having someone who could touch base if I had serious concerns.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I they should get their tuition back, because then you'll see more slacking off.

I think part of the problem is that many kids are loaded with tutors in high school. Then they get into a top school and they're on their own. I think parents shouldn't start the tutoring in the first place so that kids end up in colleges they can handle and they learn to count on themselves.

I think this is so on point. When we were in FCPS, it seemed like my kids with zero tutors (other than us advanced degreed parents) were an anomaly. It was almost like the K-12 teachers started to teach to the tutor. Meaning, it was assumed you would get your kids a tutor for each subject if they needed any help, and the classroom was merely a place to reinforce the concepts they should already know. That we never hired a tutor seemed to strike some teachers as odd, like who does that? Then we moved away and school became a lot more normal. Better.

I think there's a middle ground here. My DS worked with a tutor for French and DD is now for calculus. In both cases they got to a point where they were really struggling and the help from the teacher was insufficient. DS really did NOT want a tutor, seemed to think he meant he wasn't good enough. Then he tried it and learned that it really helped. Now, he's in college and knows that it's OK to ask for help. College students definitely use tutors. On all the tours they tout their academic success centers, writing centers, etc. There's lots of help but the student has to feel OK asking for it and lots of kids who were super-achievers in HS may not be willing to ask.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a great post, and I hope people continue being kind.

I think so many kids are pushed and cultivated to be "perfect." They're cracking. COVID has made it a million times worse.

I have one child in college now, and of course I don't want it to go wrong. But -- if he needed to take a pause, or transfer -- I hope I would have the sense to let it happen.

This. The intensity at my kids' HS is crazy. DD has Inattentive ADHD and struggles with executive function. Because of that, we insisted that she limit her junior year schedule to *only* 3 AP classes (which when I was a junior was what the top students took). So, she opted not to take APUSH so that she could take an AP science since that's her strength and she already took (and really had a hard time with) AP World History and AP Government. She says she feels weird now that she's the only one in her group not in APUSH and 4-5 AP classes is the norm. Too bad. Her mental health is more important, We're opting out of the rat race.

And, I agree, a student who can't make it to class or turn in their work because of mental health issues needs to take a pause or transfer and have the support to understand that this is OK and doesn't mean their life is ruined. Life is long and there are many paths to a happy life. Too many kids get the idea that there is only one right way to do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

High school teacher here. I've noticed the same trends among students, but their parents also are different.

These kids have been shielded from failure for years. There is no sense or urgency and not much personal responsibility because there is no failing in high school: if they don't turn something in or don't study sufficiently, the teachers give second chances or retakes. If the student doesn't like the grade he/she earns and parents complain, admin will ensure that the teacher raises the grade. And the parents see the teacher as the one responsible for the child's grades, not the child herself. Everyone is intelligent and everyone should go to college, and if there are any struggles, accommodations and exceptions must be put into place.

Even ten years ago it was starting to change, but prior to that, things were much different.

This is the environment where your students were cooked and formed. They are your customers and they assume you will provide the product (grades).

Well, this is a little tricky here. Because the point is to LEARN the material, is it not? It's not to do "gotcha -- you didn't learn the material in time or the first time, so you're stuck with the shit grade you got." As long as they ultimately learn the material, they have earned the higher grade, IMHO.

That said, there are limits to that, too. So I don't quite know where the line is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

High school teacher here. I've noticed the same trends among students, but their parents also are different.

These kids have been shielded from failure for years. There is no sense or urgency and not much personal responsibility because there is no failing in high school: if they don't turn something in or don't study sufficiently, the teachers give second chances or retakes. If the student doesn't like the grade he/she earns and parents complain, admin will ensure that the teacher raises the grade. And the parents see the teacher as the one responsible for the child's grades, not the child herself. Everyone is intelligent and everyone should go to college, and if there are any struggles, accommodations and exceptions must be put into place.

Even ten years ago it was starting to change, but prior to that, things were much different.

This is the environment where your students were cooked and formed. They are your customers and they assume you will provide the product (grades).

Thank you. I struggle with how I feel about this, as I have a kid who has anxiety. However, so many of these kids have never had to deal with the consequences of failure. High schools aren't doing these kids any favors in the long run. They've had no opportunity to learn how to be resilient. COVID certainly hasn't helped, as the strictures on attendance, timeliness and grades were loosened even further. My kid recently hit a bump in the road, and, in the end, it's going to have been a good learning experience; as much anxiety as it caused, DC learned that it wasn't the end of the world, and obstacles can be overcome.

I do think it is something that some (not all) private schools do better --- ramp up the requirements and standards early, so kids can stumble and fail when there are relatively few consequences. Now many kids are learning these lessons in college, or even in the work world, where the record of failure isn't as easy to erase (at a minimum, it's expensive, and not an expense that everyone can afford).

It sounds like OP is striking a balance between being supportive and empathetic and enabling a failure to deal with the root of the problem. Which is really all you can do. It isn't helpful in the long run to allow these kids to get by without facing their issues and figure out how to overcome them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

High school teacher here. I've noticed the same trends among students, but their parents also are different.

These kids have been shielded from failure for years. There is no sense or urgency and not much personal responsibility because there is no failing in high school: if they don't turn something in or don't study sufficiently, the teachers give second chances or retakes. If the student doesn't like the grade he/she earns and parents complain, admin will ensure that the teacher raises the grade. And the parents see the teacher as the one responsible for the child's grades, not the child herself. Everyone is intelligent and everyone should go to college, and if there are any struggles, accommodations and exceptions must be put into place.

Even ten years ago it was starting to change, but prior to that, things were much different.

This is the environment where your students were cooked and formed. They are your customers and they assume you will provide the product (grades).

Well, this is a little tricky here. Because the point is to LEARN the material, is it not? It's not to do "gotcha -- you didn't learn the material in time or the first time, so you're stuck with the shit grade you got." As long as they ultimately learn the material, they have earned the higher grade, IMHO.

That said, there are limits to that, too. So I don't quite know where the line is.

But there's more to it than just learning the material. We are preparing these kids for the real world. When they're in the working world, there will be deadlines, and those deadlines have meaning. The Court issues a briefing schedule, and the brief needs to be filed on time. The Court doesn't care if you were having a bad day. The IRS wants your client's tax returns filed on time. Even if it's just your boss asking for a report or a speech on a certain date. If you delay, they'll be late or unprepared for something they need to do, and now your advancement prospects don't look so great. I've had employees who could write the most beautiful documents, but they were never on time, so they were worthless to me. In many areas, speed and timeliness is just as important as content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

As another professor, I have noticed a slight increase in students who seem to be struggling.

However, one of my main complaints prior to the pandemic has always been about how coddled the students are who come into my 101 level course. By coddled I mean expecting to be able to make up exams they missed, turn in work late without any grade ramifications, and expecting extra credit at the end to boost their grades.

It's no wonder why nearly all students have 4.0 or higher GPAs exiting high school when all their teachers allowed grades to be dropped, work to be turned in late without starting out a grade lower, and the reliance on extra credit "busy work."

So many students say they have "anxiety" but when it is broken down and discussed, it boils down to them being overwhelmed and underprepared.

[Anonymous]

If you are going above and beyond and students cannot turn in the work on time or communicate for an extension, then they fail. The MS and HS's have given kids a lot of flexibility and no consequences for not participating in school the past few years and parents don't seem to care. Some of these kids need to fail in order to succeed and some just need to fail. You aren't helping them by passing them without the proper work/skills done.

[Anonymous]

Right, and if you don't learn the material in the time allotted, then you have to repeat the course/grade. The system cannot be ultlimately flexible. It is not preschool.

[Anonymous]

I think some of the posters are confusing mental illness like depression or anxiety and learning disabilities like ADHD with immaturity, laziness or lack of motivation. Failure might help the immature or unmotivated but it does nothing to help the mental health or learning disability group. It’s like expecting the kid in a wheelchair to get out of and run a lap. When he drags himself along the track taking 10 times longer you give him an F and laugh at him.

It is significantly harder for these kids to succeed and they need help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think I they should get their tuition back, because then you'll see more slacking off.

I think part of the problem is that many kids are loaded with tutors in high school. Then they get into a top school and they're on their own. I think parents shouldn't start the tutoring in the first place so that kids end up in colleges they can handle and they learn to count on themselves.

I think this is so on point. When we were in FCPS, it seemed like my kids with zero tutors (other than us advanced degreed parents) were an anomaly. It was almost like the K-12 teachers started to teach to the tutor. Meaning, it was assumed you would get your kids a tutor for each subject if they needed any help, and the classroom was merely a place to reinforce the concepts they should already know. That we never hired a tutor seemed to strike some teachers as odd, like who does that? Then we moved away and school became a lot more normal. Better.

I think there's a middle ground here. My DS worked with a tutor for French and DD is now for calculus. In both cases they got to a point where they were really struggling and the help from the teacher was insufficient. DS really did NOT want a tutor, seemed to think he meant he wasn't good enough. Then he tried it and learned that it really helped. Now, he's in college and knows that it's OK to ask for help. College students definitely use tutors. On all the tours they tout their academic success centers, writing centers, etc. There's lots of help but the student has to feel OK asking for it and lots of kids who were super-achievers in HS may not be willing to ask.

Or in the case of my DD who has a tutor for Honors Pre-Calc this year, her main teacher just isn't good. Notorious for not being a good teacher. We hired a tutor since the main teacher isn't doing a good job of reaching my daughter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a child at UVA who has struggled with mental health issues.

To be perfectly blunt, some reasonable accommodations are appropriate. But there comes a time where if a student is that dramatically incapacitated, they need to withdraw until they can function again. And also, you cannot allow someone with mental illnesses to use it as a crutch.

There are limits to accommodations. At some point, there have to be natural consequences, and they may not always be pleasant.

I mean, in the work world there will be limits to tolerance for this behavior.

+1 you can’t lower your standards. If people aren’t up to it, for one reason or another, they need to make choices.

Perhaps relatedly, this is why I hate people trying to get into the “best“ ppossible school – sometimes people are better off being higher up the food chain at a school a step down.

PP here — I say this as someone who has worked in academic environments, and as someone who has two DSs, one who is at the tippy top school and can handle it, and one who is doing well but consciously chose a school a step down.

Yep! My older child is quite capable but went to a pressure cooker high school and intentionally stepped down for college. She went somewhere intellectual but not T20 and not a pressure cooker. She has almost all A’s now (in her soon year). She feels stimulated by the environmentbut not overwhelmed or feeling the need to compete. She is doing what she loves and learning to learn, not to get A’s. Beat choice ever!

Where does your DD attend? After seeing my DD struggle this year (first real year of high school and all the stress it entails), I definitely think a nurturing college (*gasp* even a CTCL!) would be best for her. No high pressure college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even before Covid, I noticed an increase in serious mental health challenges among both undergrad and grad students in my classes and in the department as a whole. Based on conversations with colleagues, it seems to be occurring across the university. The university has some pretty good resources in place and the messaging from higher admin emphasizes supporting the students. But what I struggle with is maintaining standards. I have students who basically stop showing up to class, citing anxiety. They do not complete the work and do not do well on tests. In classes with papers instead of tests, they fail to turn the papers in. I have fairly generous makeup policies and let students drop their lowest test in the exam based courses. I try to use a variety of assessments so students' final grades do not depend on one or two very large assignments.

I reach out to the students who are not showing up and not turning in work and try to offer ways to help them get back on track. I also try to connect them to university mental health resources. But in many cases they either don't respond or want to try to make up work when it is way too late to turn things around. Even if I give them the opportunity to make up most of the work, it's just too much for them after getting so behind. Even giving a grade of Incomplete usually just delays the inevitable, as the challenges that were preventing the students from doing the work in the first place are often still in place a few months later. It just seems like a good proportion of these students would be better off withdrawing from courses rather than getting behind, feeling stressed about that, and still not ending up with a good grade in the end.

I personally think the biggest problem is that there is no good mechanism for students to recognize that college isn't working out at this time and to get their money back. The university doesn't allow a tuition refund unless the student drops quite early in the semester, before the student fully realizes they aren't keeping up. So the student feels like they have to stick with it because they have already paid for it, which I understand. It just feels like a problem with no real solution. I can't just pretend that my classes don't require any work for students experiencing mental health difficulties and give them a passing grade they haven't earned. I worry that the "it's ok not to be ok" messaging is leading some of them to believe it's ok to just stop communicating for weeks/months and that somehow it will all work out later. That is not reality in college nor is it the reality in the workplace.

Do you kids' universities have any effective solutions to this problem? I can't see my university changing their policy around tuition refunds but maybe some of us faculty need to start pushing for it somehow.

As another professor, I have noticed a slight increase in students who seem to be struggling.

However, one of my main complaints prior to the pandemic has always been about how coddled the students are who come into my 101 level course. By coddled I mean expecting to be able to make up exams they missed, turn in work late without any grade ramifications, and expecting extra credit at the end to boost their grades.

It's no wonder why nearly all students have 4.0 or higher GPAs exiting high school when all their teachers allowed grades to be dropped, work to be turned in late without starting out a grade lower, and the reliance on extra credit "busy work."

So many students say they have "anxiety" but when it is broken down and discussed, it boils down to them being overwhelmed and underprepared.

I've worked in several top private schools, and would like to note that it is admin who insist on this, not teachers. If you want to survive at a top private school as a teacher, you can't have parents complaining about you regularly to admin, and they do complain if their children do not receives the high grades parents and students feel they deserve. As a teacher, I have to do what admin want and what parents (so, kids) want. It isn't teachers making these decisions. And these decisions are ultimately harming our kids.

[Anonymous]

As a parent of college students I think the problem lies with “no high school experience “. I define this by saying that HS used to be a time to grow up, know yourself have friends, think, relax. Be a kid transitioning into a young adult. Now it’s grind grind grind. They still mostly end up in the same schools they would have anyway but they lost those years to the grind and stress. Covid made it 100x worse. Getting into college has turned into years of working towards a nebulous goal. When they finally GET to college… it’s not a 5 star resort … it’s college where you are supposed to step it up. They are too exhausted to step it up. So they get depressed. Also the culture wars don’t help. My kid at a “hard” grade deflating college said college was much easier than HS.