Another massive sexual abuse scandal

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

[Anonymous]

I always think about the guy who stands on mass ave with the sign, The Catholic Church hides pedophiles.” He was right. He stood there with that sign every day. I often wondered what happened to him as a child. I want to thank him for his protest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Celibacy isn't "forced" in Catholicism since all priests choose to be priests. No one is born into or has to choose that path. And contrary to public perception, the majority of them either respect their vow and handle it well or leave the priesthood if they find it not as they expected. It is horrible and 100% true that for many, many years the priesthood became a refuge for many men who could not function in families or society because of their addictions. Knowing they'd be shunned by their families and outcasts otherwise, they fled to an institution where they found they could hide. The Church worried much more about protecting itself than about facing the crimes (I once heard it described as one gigantic family who chose to hide the creepy, handsy uncle rather than turn him in and face public embarrassment which I thought was simplistic but oddly relatable) and that only fueled the entry of men who should have never been ordained. However if anyone takes the time to look into priest formation in the last decades you will see an enormous change in how men are vetted and counseled. There are good men for the present and future Church but they carry the sins of those before them who betrayed that vow. The past was wrong, wrong, wrong but it's sad that good people today are vilified for trying so hard to faithfully rebuild the Church.

Oh the past. All forgotten all forgiven. All those broken souls. Can’t do anything about that anymore. The Pope is ‘saddened’ by this report! Saddened??? He should be furious. He should put together a commission to root out the offenders and remove them from the church AND turn them over to authorities. He should be selling property and art works to give to the victims to try to make them whole and ensure they have access to the best therapy and support money can buy. The good men from the past and present KNEW this was going on and still stayed within the organization! This isn’t a piece of burnt toast where you can just scrape off the charred parts and cover it in butter. It is rotten to the core and continues to make the safety of the weakest members of their flock their top priority. It is rotten to the core and any support of the church is supporting the abuse of children. It is repugnant no matter how you slice it.

but, but but ---- the mass ....the sacraments ----- it makes me feel so good..............

You’re obviously not here for a serious discussion. Puerile mockery is hardly persuasive.

Right - a serious discussion uses good grammar and big words to defend the indefensible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always think about the guy who stands on mass ave with the sign, The Catholic Church hides pedophiles.” He was right. He stood there with that sign every day. I often wondered what happened to him as a child. I want to thank him for his protest.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wojnowski

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

but they devoutly stayed.

Meanwhile, many Catholics have left in disgust -- according to your reasoning, they would be the bad guys.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

but they devoutly stayed.

Meanwhile, many Catholics have left in disgust -- according to your reasoning, they would be the bad guys.

Good, bad or indifferent, apostasy is never spiritually advantageous for the individual. Whatever those people think they are “disgusted with,” it is not the Catholic Church, which Catholics believe is founded on Christ himself. There are people who abandon the Church because their own feelings are hurt or something bad happened to them. That’s understandable but unfortunate. It is the spiritual equivalent of suffocating oneself to avoid something that smells bad. Many more people who purport to leave the Church “in disgust” actually are reacting to their own self-hatred at their inability to live according to Church teaching, which they frequently misunderstand and/or deny instead of seeking pardon and trying again when they fail.

No Catholic can ever “leave in disgust” in any event. They can become inactive, they can become apostate, they can embrace heresy, but fundamental Catholic teaching remains that once an individual is incorporated into the Church by baptism they cannot be removed. People who posit that Church “membership” is no more than a preference akin to liking one fast food restaurant over another are fundamentally ignorant and promoting indifferentism, which is no faith at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

Awesome job blaming the victims here, PP. Well done.

[Speaking of mental illness…]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

Awesome job blaming the victims here, PP. Well done.

[Speaking of mental illness…]

Awesome job ignoring the substance of the post and framing it to fit your agenda. Well done. [Speaking of projection . . ..]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

Awesome job blaming the victims here, PP. Well done.

[Speaking of mental illness…]

Awesome job ignoring the substance of the post and framing it to fit your agenda. Well done. [Speaking of projection . . ..]

You are quite the ambassador for Holy Mother Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

Are these “mentally ill” children from “broken families” not worthy of your care and protection? Do you not have an obligation as a Christian to protect, defend and nurture them? It seems your allegiance is to the human construct of the Church not the actual Church.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

but they devoutly stayed.

Meanwhile, many Catholics have left in disgust -- according to your reasoning, they would be the bad guys.

Good, bad or indifferent, apostasy is never spiritually advantageous for the individual. Whatever those people think they are “disgusted with,” it is not the Catholic Church, which Catholics believe is founded on Christ himself. There are people who abandon the Church because their own feelings are hurt or something bad happened to them. That’s understandable but unfortunate. It is the spiritual equivalent of suffocating oneself to avoid something that smells bad. Many more people who purport to leave the Church “in disgust” actually are reacting to their own self-hatred at their inability to live according to Church teaching, which they frequently misunderstand and/or deny instead of seeking pardon and trying again when they fail.

No Catholic can ever “leave in disgust” in any event. They can become inactive, they can become apostate, they can embrace heresy, but fundamental Catholic teaching remains that once an individual is incorporated into the Church by baptism they cannot be removed. People who posit that Church “membership” is no more than a preference akin to liking one fast food restaurant over another are fundamentally ignorant and promoting indifferentism, which is no faith at all.

The Catholic church will take back apostates at any time. Actually, though you may not know it, you never actually left the church, you just stopped going to mass and tithing. According to the Church, it doesn't matter what you do, you are part of the Church FOREVER - from the day your parents had you baptized as a infant. You've been Catholic since before you could speak or control your bowels.

What differs is your destination in the afterlife. If you disavow the Church or stop attending, you will go to hell. If you make your Easter duty every year, attend mass and go to confession you will go to heaven, as long as you are in a state of grace when you die. It's a pretty good deal, because between confessions, you can sin as much as you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Catholic Church is a cult that systematically abuses children and pays to cover it up.

Shame on all practicing Catholics. Shame on you.

DH was raised Catholic, and he calls it a cult. Loathes it, and thinks all should quit the church because of it's association with and history of child abuse. A sick, sick underbelly to that religion.

There are more than 1.3 billion (with a “b”) Catholics in the world. You think they’re responsible for the predations of a comparatively few perverts and the acts and/or omissions of bad administrators? That’s like saying the Chinese people are responsible for the evils of Communism, or the Cambodians for the evils of Pol Pot. The vast majority of those 1.3 billion people, although sinners, are doing their best to find their way through this life and into what they hope will be eternal life according to a belief system in which they find solace and hope. Those 1.3 billion people perform untold hidden works of charity. The “Church” isn’t the administrative entity — that entity exists to serve (sometimes very poorly) the needs of those 1.3 billion people.

How dare PP “shame” 1.3 billion fellow people doing the best they can! How dare the other PP deride as a “cult” a two-millennia old belief system the fundamental tenets of which are love and self-giving! Neither PP would dare criticize other belief systems that treat child rape, particularly of girls, as normal. At least the Catholics admit it is a sin. Complain all you want about the management, but you have no right to attack the 1.3 billion regular believers who are as much victims as anyone else of these scandals.

What’s a few million destroyed children because of all the other stuff we did and BTW this was covered up AT THE VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH! Pope after Pope allowed this! Your local priest knew this was a thing but shrugged his shoulders and arranged the pancake dinner. In any other org the “good” ones would have gathered and protested and called for a stop to it but they just let it go. Do all the mental gymnastics you want but it is wrong to support the Catholic Church in any way. It ‘ain’t the only church.

And again, you fail or refuse to recognize the distinction between the body of believers, who have been harmed financially, morally and otherwise, and the perverts and bad managers who allowed the harm to occur. Your “knowledge” of ecclesiology is obviously pitiful, but not as pitiful as your understanding of Catholic theology. For Catholics, the Catholic Church in fact IS the “only church.” Their belief system obliges them to accept a hierarchical structure, but it certainly does not render them responsible for the misdeeds of a few who manifestly acted in violation of Church moral teaching, and more than the Iraqis were responsible for Saddam, the Chinese people for Mao or the Cambodian people for Pol Pot. The “VERY TOP OF THE CHURCH” is a rarified zone that is supposed to serve the believers; its sins are not theirs. You haven’t got the slightest idea what any priest knew or didn’t know about any case of alleged abuse. The ones I’ve known were as scandalized as any layman.

You like the ritual? the turning of the wafer into the body and blood of Jesus? The wonderful feeling of belonging to the church that Jesus himself started (according to the legend).

Fine, stay on and hope your kid isn't next.

First, it’s not a “wafer,” it is a “host,” or an “oblatum,” each referencing something destined for sacrifice. Second, while liturgical ritual is important and a feeling of belonging to a community is helpful, neither is of the essence of being Catholic. Catholicism is a way of relating to and understanding God, insofar as Hod can be known and understood by mortal reason. As for my own child, the likelihood of abuse is and always has been negligible. The vast majority of alleged victims claiming to have been exploited by mentally ill degenerates in the Church (or elsewhere) come from broken families, are seeking relationships they should be able to get elsewhere, and not infrequently mentally ill themselves. None of those things apply to me or my family. It is hugely uncharitable to wish evil on an innocent person because you disagree with their family’s religious values, beliefs and practices.

Are these “mentally ill” children from “broken families” not worthy of your care and protection? Do you not have an obligation as a Christian to protect, defend and nurture them? It seems your allegiance is to the human construct of the Church not the actual Church.

If you bothered to read the post, you would see that the victimology discussion was in response to a stated hope that a poster’s child would be molested because another poster didn’t like something that was said. Everybody is entitled to proper treatment, but the fact is that many victims were abandoned by families and others long before they fell into the clutches of degenerates masquerading as churchmen. No one claims that anyone fell victim to bands of tonsured rapists, lurking and roaming at all hours, dragging victims off the street to debauch them. These crimes are not as simple as that. As for “human construct” versus “actual church,” there is no such distinction. The Church is a divine construct, but peopled by fallible humans, some of whom are terrible sinners and some of whom are saints.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Many people are grateful for their experiences growing up in Catholic orphanages. Abuse is certainly not universal.

I hope that individuals who had a good experience understand that it is not acceptable that some do not.

Of course people find it grossly unacceptable that over the course of the last 100 years there has been a lot of abuse by terrible men in the Church.

Why you would then say all people in the Church today are evil is illogical.