Bad News for Test Prep Parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find it hard to believe any reasonably prudent person in their right mind would not at least take a look at the type of questions that are going to be asked on a test that will so greatly affect one's life.

Here is where the confusion lies. The SAT just does not have that huge effect on a person's life in the U.S. It is only one of many aspects of a college application, and not by any means considered the single most important one. Many schools have made SAT/ACT scores an optional part of the application package. Lots of schools don't even require the applicant to send in their scores.
Colleges are looking at lots of factors: GPA, rigorousness of curriculum, involvement in extracurricular activities, essays, and sometimes interviews. Test scores are only one part of the picture and in no way are they determinative of anyone's future. Go to college admissions sessions and one will hear that SAT/ACT scores are not the sole factor in any student's acceptance or denial.

sorry but this is misleading as hell. So many good posts on these various threads about college admission and they all agree the GPA and SAT are the main criteria. You need those two to make the cut for further consideration at most competitive schools. After that, the other things you mention come into play. But of you up your SAT it will limit your college admissions options and, yes, your life will be affected. Is it a death knell? No, but it will affect your life.

Not misleading at all and it confuses people to tell them otherwise.

Most of the big state schools consider GPA and SAT/ACT as their main criteria. The farther up the ranking lists you go, other aspects of the application start to take on more importance in the decision-making process. Most of the high-ranking schools will tell you that the most important part of the application is the GPA and the rigor of the student's course load. A kid who has kept up a high GPA in tough courses is going to do fine on the SAT or ACT. And if a kid has a low GPA or a high GPA in easy courses? Well, it won't matter how high the scores are for that application.
An applicant has to have the total package for competitive schools, with test scores being only one part of the whole. A kid with the drive and work ethic to have the GPA in the right courses may benefit from some sample tests and some reading about test strategies, but that kid does not need extensive (and expensive!) prep courses or private tutoring that goes on for months. You can take these tests as many times as you want, so it doesn't matter if you mess up one day. Scores go up just by taking the test again anyway. And no matter how much prep is done, a kid who is scoring in the 500s on each section is not going to raise the score to the 700s by prepping, except maybe in math since that is the easiest section to prep for.

[Anonymous]

The bottom line is that the scores of these AAP identification tests are affected when kids have been practicing with materials that replicate past tests. Some people know this and have decided to make some money off this fact. The more they can convince young parents that:
a: a child's intelligence is dependent on how many of this business's worksheets the child does and,
b: that there is no good education available in FCPS except in AAP and,
c: the best way to get a child into AAP is to use our services/products,
the more money they will make.

They do not want the school to know that kids have been prepped, because they know that the scores would then be taken less seriously. It would certainly be bad for business for the schools to know which second graders have been doing practice questions from old tests at camps or classes or clubs or just at home with a parent. Even the idea that teachers might be asking kids at school if they have seen questions like these before could be bad for business. Parents may hesitate to buy into test prep programs or materials if they hear that the schools might not use test results from kids who say they have seen questions like this before.

Most of these businesses sell other types of tutoring and test prep so they will not lose their shirts if FCPS were to stop using these tests or drop the AAP.
But it would eat into their profits to a certain extent.

This post is most likely the reason for the anti-FCPS screeds. Some people just do not like it when other people disagree with them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find it hard to believe any reasonably prudent person in their right mind would not at least take a look at the type of questions that are going to be asked on a test that will so greatly affect one's life.

Here is where the confusion lies. The SAT just does not have that huge effect on a person's life in the U.S. It is only one of many aspects of a college application, and not by any means considered the single most important one. Many schools have made SAT/ACT scores an optional part of the application package. Lots of schools don't even require the applicant to send in their scores.
Colleges are looking at lots of factors: GPA, rigorousness of curriculum, involvement in extracurricular activities, essays, and sometimes interviews. Test scores are only one part of the picture and in no way are they determinative of anyone's future. Go to college admissions sessions and one will hear that SAT/ACT scores are not the sole factor in any student's acceptance or denial.

sorry but this is misleading as hell. So many good posts on these various threads about college admission and they all agree the GPA and SAT are the main criteria. You need those two to make the cut for further consideration at most competitive schools. After that, the other things you mention come into play. But of you up your SAT it will limit your college admissions options and, yes, your life will be affected. Is it a death knell? No, but it will affect your life.

Not misleading at all and it confuses people to tell them otherwise.

Most of the big state schools consider GPA and SAT/ACT as their main criteria. The farther up the ranking lists you go, other aspects of the application start to take on more importance in the decision-making process. Most of the high-ranking schools will tell you that the most important part of the application is the GPA and the rigor of the student's course load. A kid who has kept up a high GPA in tough courses is going to do fine on the SAT or ACT. And if a kid has a low GPA or a high GPA in easy courses? Well, it won't matter how high the scores are for that application.
An applicant has to have the total package for competitive schools, with test scores being only one part of the whole. A kid with the drive and work ethic to have the GPA in the right courses may benefit from some sample tests and some reading about test strategies, but that kid does not need extensive (and expensive!) prep courses or private tutoring that goes on for months. You can take these tests as many times as you want, so it doesn't matter if you mess up one day. Scores go up just by taking the test again anyway. And no matter how much prep is done, a kid who is scoring in the 500s on each section is not going to raise the score to the 700s by prepping, except maybe in math since that is the easiest section to prep for.

maybe they will, maybe they wont. What if they don't? Then they're going to NoVa or JMU or Mary Washington. You're going to tell your high GPA kid to just go ahead and leave the SAT score to chance since most kids with high GPA and tough course will do "fine?" Go ahead, but I think it is lousy advice.

[Anonymous]

I went to JMU. It was amazing. I would love for all my children to go there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to JMU. It was amazing. I would love for all my children to go there.

cool. With a 63.6% acceptance rate they wont have to worry too much about all this SAT test prep stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I find it hard to believe any reasonably prudent person in their right mind would not at least take a look at the type of questions that are going to be asked on a test that will so greatly affect one's life.

Here is where the confusion lies. The SAT just does not have that huge effect on a person's life in the U.S. It is only one of many aspects of a college application, and not by any means considered the single most important one. Many schools have made SAT/ACT scores an optional part of the application package. Lots of schools don't even require the applicant to send in their scores.
Colleges are looking at lots of factors: GPA, rigorousness of curriculum, involvement in extracurricular activities, essays, and sometimes interviews. Test scores are only one part of the picture and in no way are they determinative of anyone's future. Go to college admissions sessions and one will hear that SAT/ACT scores are not the sole factor in any student's acceptance or denial.

sorry but this is misleading as hell. So many good posts on these various threads about college admission and they all agree the GPA and SAT are the main criteria. You need those two to make the cut for further consideration at most competitive schools. After that, the other things you mention come into play. But of you up your SAT it will limit your college admissions options and, yes, your life will be affected. Is it a death knell? No, but it will affect your life.

Not misleading at all and it confuses people to tell them otherwise.

Most of the big state schools consider GPA and SAT/ACT as their main criteria. The farther up the ranking lists you go, other aspects of the application start to take on more importance in the decision-making process. Most of the high-ranking schools will tell you that the most important part of the application is the GPA and the rigor of the student's course load. A kid who has kept up a high GPA in tough courses is going to do fine on the SAT or ACT. And if a kid has a low GPA or a high GPA in easy courses? Well, it won't matter how high the scores are for that application.
An applicant has to have the total package for competitive schools, with test scores being only one part of the whole. A kid with the drive and work ethic to have the GPA in the right courses may benefit from some sample tests and some reading about test strategies, but that kid does not need extensive (and expensive!) prep courses or private tutoring that goes on for months. You can take these tests as many times as you want, so it doesn't matter if you mess up one day. Scores go up just by taking the test again anyway. And no matter how much prep is done, a kid who is scoring in the 500s on each section is not going to raise the score to the 700s by prepping, except maybe in math since that is the easiest section to prep for.

maybe they will, maybe they wont. What if they don't? Then they're going to NoVa or JMU or Mary Washington. You're going to tell your high GPA kid to just go ahead and leave the SAT score to chance since most kids with high GPA and tough course will do "fine?" Go ahead, but I think it is lousy advice.

I went to a third tier school because of my low GPA, but then transferred to Virginia Tech after one year. Went on to get my PhD from a major university. I am not worried if my DD does not get into MIT....NoVA is a lot cheaper, and she can transfer

[Anonymous]

All our kids are screwed on college admissions around here.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2008-04-12/news/36818742_1_jmu-selective-schools-class-rankings

[Anonymous]

Here's the rest of what I have said to my kids:

A kid with the drive and work ethic to have the GPA in the right courses may benefit from some sample tests and some reading about test strategies, but that kid does not necessarily need extensive (and expensive!) prep courses or private tutoring that goes on for months. You can take these tests as many times as you want, so it doesn't matter if you mess up one day. Scores go up just by taking the test again anyway. And no matter how much prep is done, a kid who is scoring in the 500s on each section is not going to raise the score to the 700s by prepping, except maybe in math since that is the easiest section to prep for.

It's not leaving the score to chance at all, in my opinion. A student who works hard in tough courses is learning a lot every day. If a kid is getting a score in the 200s on the PSAT as a ninth grader, he is not likely to score lower on the SAT two years later as an eleventh grader, and will likely score higher. He's had two more years of learning to draw on! That kid's college prospects can benefit more from pouring time and energy into an outside activity that he loves than from spending that same time in a test prep course. On the other hand, a kid who doesn't score so well on the PSAT probably will need some extra help. It's a matter of making choices and making the wisest use of time and resources for each family's circumstances.

I don't really care what other families choose to do in respect to SAT/ACT prep. For some kids, some time spent prepping/reviewing at home is enough to get great results. They have no need to spend a large amount of time or money on long courses or tutors. Other families find courses and/or tutors to be useful or even necessary for some kids who have difficulty with standardized tests. Different people make different choices that work for them.

In any event, the SAT and ACT are not the be all and end all and they do not have determinative power over a teenager's future. If one had to choose between a test prep course or studying tough courses in school and achieving a high GPA, I would prioritize the GPA and the rigorous high school curriculum. A great GPA in the highest level courses shows colleges a four year record of hard work and achievement that demonstrates that a student is capable of success in college.

(I did not go to JMU nor have any of my children, but it is a good choice for many people and they have many successful graduates. Most people would consider it to be on a different level than NOVA.)

[Anonymous]

The Washington Post article above (21:32) is about a young man with a 2270 SAT score who did not get accepted at JMU. Unfortunately, he had a 3.4 GPA. Even considering that this happened back before FCPS had changed its grading policies, a high SAT score just can not make up for a lower GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Well, good luck with the SAT next year. And I can assure you that while I sadly bow to selfishness and vanity on occasion, I am not lying. It bothered me too that my son didn't want to take a prep class like most kids seem to now. But he's stubborn, so there was little I could do. Fortunately, he was right in his assessments. As were his friends. As others on these forums have noted despite the lemming-like insistence that you have to prep for the SAT, I think if you're a certain kind of kid who would score on the higher end anyway, it really doesn't matter.

And no, I don't know where the 3 are going to college yet, as early decision aps are only due tomorrow.

Does it bother you that others prep for the SAT? If not, what's your point, if it bothered you your son "didn't want to take a prep class". I bet your son stole the College Board Blue Book/Barons/Princeton/ SAT on-line review to prep for the test but you like most of your lying and deceiving kind strategically left that course of action out of this discussion. Well, he may not have stolen the test material. He may have borrowed it from the public library or bought the guides online or from the bookstore. I am also sure you will deny those materials are not in your home and your children never prepped with the stolen or commercial review materials ? Go ahead, and humor us.

We know you can prep by taking practice SAT tests without taking a "prep class" as you conveniently write (Blue Book, enclosed practice test with registration packet, Princeton, Baron, MCPS and FCPS on-line SAT practise test reviews, etc, etc,).

Your son is well aware of the myriad of ways to prep. Perhaps Martians will believe your stories.

I think it's silly that as a society we've gotten to the point where people feel they have to prep for the SAT. Does it bother me that they do? To each his own. I really don't care.

What I find really frightening that if you say your kid didn't do SAT prep no one believes you. Can no one accept that people can just be smart? And it doesn't make them bad people if they don't choose to slave over practice tests anyway? Maybe they're using that time to explore subjects more deeply or just pursue their interests. To make a judgment that kids who wouldn't prep for the SAT are somehow "less" hardworking than others who choose to is just twisted. We don't all have to march in lockstep. Thank goodness some kids still realize that.

[Anonymous]

cool. With a 63.6% acceptance rate they wont have to worry too much about all this SAT test prep stuff.

Harvard's admit rate was 5 % last year. And most top schools -- in the 5 to 11% range. While I may not be interested in going to Harvard it doesn't mean I will decide not to put my best foot forward in the process -- GPA or SAT. A few good pilots and surgeons have come a cropper just because they did not shoot for their best efforts even on a short flight up the coast or removing a non-cancerous tumor. By the time some folk reach high school, like pilots and brain surgeons, they are wired to sweep clean and do their best no matter how mundane you think the task. That's their nature. If Harvard asks for an SAT score or recommendation or portfolio these students will put forth their best efforts. It really doesn't matter what you think. You had your opportunity to go to College. It is their turn now and your old war stories about how easy it was for you and not studying for this and for that is really meaningless and immaterial today. More than likely you would not be able to compete with today's students for those seats. The SAT test has no intrinsic value except as a criteria for entry into the best universities and colleges for the last 50 years. If you would not blow off the MCAT, LSAT, GMAT, State Bar Exam or National Board Examination why would any sensible individual blow off the SAT. And if it is as easy a test as you claim for a hard working student with high GPA in tough courses the minor task of hitting it out of the park (800, 800, 800) should be a breeze and top students will nail it ... and not look a gift horse in the mouth.

A risk analysis --or game theory -- would suggest one has far more to lose than gain from taking the SAT lightly. The choice intelligent students make is obvious. They don't change their approach for a prize they seek. That's the right choice with the best chance of keeping all options open. As a parent that's how I advise my children.

[Anonymous]

Colleges do not care about perfect SAT scores. Anything over 2200 is in essentially the same category and for many schools anything over 2100. They want to see a high GPA in the most rigorous course load available at the student's high school.

Students in FCPS take the PSAT once or twice, maybe even three times before they need to take the SAT. Ninth graders with high PSAT scores without prepping are very likely to get equally high or higher scores on the SAT.

[Anonymous]

I think it's silly that as a society we've gotten to the point where people feel they have to prep for the SAT. Does it bother me that they do? To each his own. I really don't care.

What I find really frightening that if you say your kid didn't do SAT prep no one believes you. Can no one accept that people can just be smart? And it doesn't make them bad people if they don't choose to slave over practice tests anyway? Maybe they're using that time to explore subjects more deeply or just pursue their interests. To make a judgment that kids who wouldn't prep for the SAT are somehow "less" hardworking than others who choose to is just twisted. We don't all have to march in lockstep. Thank goodness some kids still realize that.

After reading the PP about how the poster advices his own children about the SAT it is obviously clear in the case of the above quote ... the key is what type of colleges the poster's children applied to and got in. If these students applied to community colleges it might be credible they sat for the SAT cold. On the other hand, if these students were shooting for the top colleges with 5 to 10% admit rates it is highly unlikely these clearly ambitious students took the SAT cold and in one sitting without preparation. This is not a rational choice made by ambitious and intelligent kids. Intelligent, smart, and ambitious students do not struggle or slave over practice SAT tests BUT they prepare effectively and efficiently --- but prepare they do. No stone is left unturned in the unpredictable college sweepstakes for the top ranked colleges and universities in America. The college counseling offices in the Fairfax County high schools have a wealth of materials and resources regarding the preparation, planning and timing of the SAT examinations during the year. If one's destination is Podunk University and you can pay the fees the SAT scantron exercise requires minimal preparation. You'll get in even with (300, 300, 300) and the school will take your money.

[Anonymous]

The 12 year-old is well en route with 700 on Math for the Duke TIP talent search (you will surprised to learn that there are well over 1000 twelve year-olds capable of this (no sweat) looking at the yearly performances on the various talent searches around the country (CTY, NMATS etc)

This doesn't surprise me at all. We are still getting tons of advertising at my house from CTY because of my own child's scores at that age. The math part is the easiest to prep for and it is not wildly unusual for middle school kids to get high scores.

[Anonymous]

What I find really frightening that if you say your kid didn't do SAT prep no one believes you. Can no one accept that people can just be smart? And it doesn't make them bad people if they don't choose to slave over practice tests anyway? Maybe they're using that time to explore subjects more deeply or just pursue their interests. To make a judgment that kids who wouldn't prep for the SAT are somehow "less" hardworking than others who choose to is just twisted. We don't all have to march in lockstep. Thank goodness some kids still realize that.

Oh, I think most people do believe you. Some people might not, but most would.