Pay-to-Play Sport at Private HS employing club coach - what's normal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:quote=Anonymous]It is really sad what kids sports have become for some people. And your child can enjoy sports in this area without buying into all that. You just have to opt out of the crazy leagues and schools.

This. Parents, this is your responsibility. Lots of pages here blaming coaches who are certainly blameworthy, but it's your responsibility to not give them power over your kids or let them suck the joy out of sports for your kids. Yes, coaches can be instrumental in helping kids play in college, get scholarships, and more, but the good ones do it the right way and it's not hard to tell who the good ones are. Actually it's probably easier to tell who the bad ones are. There are warning signs and the information is out there. Don’t just fall for empty promises and shiny objects.

Here is what happens regularly at SJC baseball:

- Coach contacts parents to say their little Johnny, a rising 7th grader, is a helluva player.

- Coach tells parents SJC is better than anyone at developing baseball players. Just look at all the championship trophies. Tells parents Johnny would make a great Cadet.

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp (for a $425 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp (for a $350 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $985 and Johnny isn't even finished with the 7th grade.

- Johnny is now a rising 8th grader. Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to schedule a shadow day at St. John's during the Fall of 8th grade.

- Johnny shadows at St. John's and he and his parents are given a tour of St. John's and a sales pitch by Coach. Coach shows them all the great facilities, and talks about all the college and professional players and, of course, the championships.

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp again (for a $350 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp again (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $1,970 and Johnny hasn't even been accepted at St. John's yet.

- Johnny gets his acceptance letter from St. John's (phew).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee). Query, since you've paid your deposit and enrolled Johnny in the school, is Johnny still a prospect? Doesn't matter - he'll take your $425.

- Coach invites Johnny to summer workouts for incoming freshmen and strongly suggests he should attend (for a $100 fee). Johnny's parents have now paid Coach $2,495. Johnny has not yet attended a class at St. John's.

- Johnny goes to summer workouts 3 days a week for 2-3 hours a day, for 8 weeks. Johnny learns how to stretch and run properly, but does not play baseball all summer.

- Johnny shows up for the first day of school. If Coach thinks Johnny was a good enough stretcher and runner, he requires him to participate in offseason after school workouts with 60+ other kids (for about a $600 fee), and requires him to play on a Fall Diamond Skills team (for an approximately $1,200 fee). If Coach doesn't think Johnny was a good enough stretcher or runner, he just stops contacting him (no emails, phone calls or anything to explain why he can't play baseball at St. John's, and Johnny isn't given an opportunity to try out for the school team in the Spring).

- In the fall, Johnny works out with the baseball program every day after school, some days in the morning, and plays in tournaments with Diamond Skills on the weekends. Johnny's Diamond Skills team has around 18 kids on it, and Johnny gets to play about half of every game. Doesn’t matter how the team is doing - Coach decides all playing time ahead of time and doesn’t attend the games/tournaments. If he is a pitcher, Johnny is not allowed to throw more than 30 pitches in a weekend.

- Winter rolls around and Johnny keeps working out with the team 6 or 7 days a week. Come January, he works out at 6 am four school days each week, works out after school for 2-3 hours 5 days each week, and works out on Saturdays and Sundays as well. As part of the weekend workouts, Johnny is required to participate in DC Cadets winter camp (for a fee of $175).

- In February, the baseball program starts ramping up for a defense of the WCAC championship. It's all baseball all the time from now through the end of the WCAC season in mid-May.

- At the end of the high school baseball season, Johnny is told which Diamond Skills weekend travel team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of approximately $1,400), and which weeknight DC Cadets team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of $700). He also has to work out Monday-Thursday each week for 4-5 hours each day. Fortunately, this is included in the $700 DC Cadets fee.

- Johnny gets to rinse and repeat each of the next three years.

- Somewhere along the way, Johnny probably loses his love for the game. It may be because at the end of his freshman year, Coach turned him into a "pitcher only" - PO for short. Not just for the high school season, but all year round. There are plenty of other travel teams that would like Johnny to be a full time player in the summer and fall (not just a PO), but that's not allowed -- Johnny has to play for Coach's Diamond Skills program if he wants to play for St. John's.

- At some point in his junior or senior year, Johnny gets an offer to play division 3 baseball (no scholarship) or a preferred walk-on spot at a division 1 school (no scholarship and no guaranteed roster spot). If he’s like many other SJC players he decides to go to a JUCO to chase the dream. Johnny asks himself what happened - did he not put in the time?

- Johnny graduates from St. John's at the end of his senior year. He's bitter about his high school experience, but at least he's done with St. John's baseball.

Costs above are updated to reflect what we understand it costs today, but they’re comparable to when "Johnny" was there.

Our son was Johnny. Johnny will never get those four years back. We’re partly to blame, but there wasn’t as much information out there when we made our decisions. Whether your son's name is Johnny or not, I'd recommend choosing a different path.

Yikes. I’m sorry for your son. It sucks a sport he loved is left tainted.

Your story is one that I’ve heard from many others yet I’m still left speechless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:quote=Anonymous]It is really sad what kids sports have become for some people. And your child can enjoy sports in this area without buying into all that. You just have to opt out of the crazy leagues and schools.

This. Parents, this is your responsibility. Lots of pages here blaming coaches who are certainly blameworthy, but it's your responsibility to not give them power over your kids or let them suck the joy out of sports for your kids. Yes, coaches can be instrumental in helping kids play in college, get scholarships, and more, but the good ones do it the right way and it's not hard to tell who the good ones are. Actually it's probably easier to tell who the bad ones are. There are warning signs and the information is out there. Don’t just fall for empty promises and shiny objects.

Here is what happens regularly at SJC baseball:

- Coach contacts parents to say their little Johnny, a rising 7th grader, is a helluva player.

- Coach tells parents SJC is better than anyone at developing baseball players. Just look at all the championship trophies. Tells parents Johnny would make a great Cadet.

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp (for a $425 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp (for a $350 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $985 and Johnny isn't even finished with the 7th grade.

- Johnny is now a rising 8th grader. Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to schedule a shadow day at St. John's during the Fall of 8th grade.

- Johnny shadows at St. John's and he and his parents are given a tour of St. John's and a sales pitch by Coach. Coach shows them all the great facilities, and talks about all the college and professional players and, of course, the championships.

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp again (for a $350 fee).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp again (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $1,970 and Johnny hasn't even been accepted at St. John's yet.

- Johnny gets his acceptance letter from St. John's (phew).

- Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee). Query, since you've paid your deposit and enrolled Johnny in the school, is Johnny still a prospect? Doesn't matter - he'll take your $425.

- Coach invites Johnny to summer workouts for incoming freshmen and strongly suggests he should attend (for a $100 fee). Johnny's parents have now paid Coach $2,495. Johnny has not yet attended a class at St. John's.

- Johnny goes to summer workouts 3 days a week for 2-3 hours a day, for 8 weeks. Johnny learns how to stretch and run properly, but does not play baseball all summer.

- Johnny shows up for the first day of school. If Coach thinks Johnny was a good enough stretcher and runner, he requires him to participate in offseason after school workouts with 60+ other kids (for about a $600 fee), and requires him to play on a Fall Diamond Skills team (for an approximately $1,200 fee). If Coach doesn't think Johnny was a good enough stretcher or runner, he just stops contacting him (no emails, phone calls or anything to explain why he can't play baseball at St. John's, and Johnny isn't given an opportunity to try out for the school team in the Spring).

- In the fall, Johnny works out with the baseball program every day after school, some days in the morning, and plays in tournaments with Diamond Skills on the weekends. Johnny's Diamond Skills team has around 18 kids on it, and Johnny gets to play about half of every game. Doesn’t matter how the team is doing - Coach decides all playing time ahead of time and doesn’t attend the games/tournaments. If he is a pitcher, Johnny is not allowed to throw more than 30 pitches in a weekend.

- Winter rolls around and Johnny keeps working out with the team 6 or 7 days a week. Come January, he works out at 6 am four school days each week, works out after school for 2-3 hours 5 days each week, and works out on Saturdays and Sundays as well. As part of the weekend workouts, Johnny is required to participate in DC Cadets winter camp (for a fee of $175).

- In February, the baseball program starts ramping up for a defense of the WCAC championship. It's all baseball all the time from now through the end of the WCAC season in mid-May.

- At the end of the high school baseball season, Johnny is told which Diamond Skills weekend travel team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of approximately $1,400), and which weeknight DC Cadets team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of $700). He also has to work out Monday-Thursday each week for 4-5 hours each day. Fortunately, this is included in the $700 DC Cadets fee.

- Johnny gets to rinse and repeat each of the next three years.

- Somewhere along the way, Johnny probably loses his love for the game. It may be because at the end of his freshman year, Coach turned him into a "pitcher only" - PO for short. Not just for the high school season, but all year round. There are plenty of other travel teams that would like Johnny to be a full time player in the summer and fall (not just a PO), but that's not allowed -- Johnny has to play for Coach's Diamond Skills program if he wants to play for St. John's.

- At some point in his junior or senior year, Johnny gets an offer to play division 3 baseball (no scholarship) or a preferred walk-on spot at a division 1 school (no scholarship and no guaranteed roster spot). If he’s like many other SJC players he decides to go to a JUCO to chase the dream. Johnny asks himself what happened - did he not put in the time?

- Johnny graduates from St. John's at the end of his senior year. He's bitter about his high school experience, but at least he's done with St. John's baseball.

Costs above are updated to reflect what we understand it costs today, but they’re comparable to when "Johnny" was there.

Our son was Johnny. Johnny will never get those four years back. We’re partly to blame, but there wasn’t as much information out there when we made our decisions. Whether your son's name is Johnny or not, I'd recommend choosing a different path.

Cripes! This is the most well documented post I've seen on DCUM. Thanks for the good intel and warning. Sorry to hear your son had to go through this - the monetizing of youth and HS sports is out of control.

I'll give the baseball coach credit for making the most possible money from parents hopes and anxieties.

- Set yourself up as the gatekeeper to both a private high school and sought after college scholarships - you may or may not be that gatekeeper, but you only need to convince people you are
- Extract $ at every level from the parents because of your perceived control of the process
- Have zero business expenses other than your labor - fields and facilities provided by SJC, tournament fees, travel, uniforms, equipment provided to parents
- Require all players to pay for non-stop training, 12 mos of the year, and threaten them with playing time or even roster position if they do not comply

The cash that comes from player's training fees is almost pure profit. Virtually nothing has to be spent on anything other than the labor costs for a few other coaches, who appear to also be partners in the business. It appears he's extracting about $4000 per player per year based on the above. With about 60 players in the program total (Varsity, JV, and Freshman), that's close to $300K per year from SJC players alone. Add in the 7th and 8th grade recruits, and he's getting up toward $400k.

[Anonymous]

This is crazy. So crazy that I think I may be crazy for posing this semi-hypothetical. Assume I have a son who is a talented athlete, but not baseball. SJC is on the short list. Do I assume the extortion is contained to baseball and it’s fine to send him to SJC? Or do I assume a school with an administration that allows this will never be looking out for my kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. So crazy that I think I may be crazy for posing this semi-hypothetical. Assume I have a son who is a talented athlete, but not baseball. SJC is on the short list. Do I assume the extortion is contained to baseball and it’s fine to send him to SJC? Or do I assume a school with an administration that allows this will never be looking out for my kid?

A school that allows this will tolerate many other things that might not be in your child's best interest.

[Anonymous]

I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

It is a very different era now, sadly.

One thing, many D1 coaches, particularly football and basketball, prefer multi-sport athletes to someone who is so focused on a single sport. It is so unhealthy, the life lived by the PP above who laid out the 6 year SJC scam.

Football players should be doing wrestling and/or track depending on their position as an example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

It is a very different era now, sadly.

One thing, many D1 coaches, particularly football and basketball, prefer multi-sport athletes to someone who is so focused on a single sport. It is so unhealthy, the life lived by the PP above who laid out the 6 year SJC scam.

Football players should be doing wrestling and/or track depending on their position as an example.

I am the PP and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have one child who excels in the arts and one who excels in athletics. Both are good students and both do a variety of activities. The one who is an athlete is in an independent school where he currently plays soccer, basketball and baseball. He's in MS but will stay there through high school and hopefully continue to play all three sports because he loves to play and not because we are looking for him to play in college.

We had a D1 ball player live with us this summer and he was basically owned by his college. Miserable. All he did was play baseball, eat and sleep. My son adored him, (such a good kid and became a big brother to my son) but it was an eye-opening experience for him as he realized that while it seems really cool to play baseball in college it might not be all it's cracked up to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

It is a very different era now, sadly.

One thing, many D1 coaches, particularly football and basketball, prefer multi-sport athletes to someone who is so focused on a single sport. It is so unhealthy, the life lived by the PP above who laid out the 6 year SJC scam.

Football players should be doing wrestling and/or track depending on their position as an example.

I am the PP and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have one child who excels in the arts and one who excels in athletics. Both are good students and both do a variety of activities. The one who is an athlete is in an independent school where he currently plays soccer, basketball and baseball. He's in MS but will stay there through high school and hopefully continue to play all three sports because he loves to play and not because we are looking for him to play in college.

We had a D1 ball player live with us this summer and he was basically owned by his college. Miserable. All he did was play baseball, eat and sleep. My son adored him, (such a good kid and became a big brother to my son) but it was an eye-opening experience for him as he realized that while it seems really cool to play baseball in college it might not be all it's cracked up to be.

I agree with part of this and somewhat disagree with part.

I agree with the importance of having well rounded kids in high school. Not just athletically (playing different sports) but athletic kids who have non-athletic interests. Big problem for SJC baseball players is that baseball is all consuming and does not allow kids to get involved with anything else (literally) at school. Now imagine you’re one of the kids who dedicates all of his time to baseball there and never gets on the field. It’s a shame and happens a lot. There’s only one reason to keep those kids in the program, and the person it benefits is not the kid.

I somewhat disagree with the notion that kids who play sports in college feel “owned” by the college. Some may feel like this but many do not. Probably depends on the kid (some love nothing more than playing their sport and working at it is never a chore) and the college coach (some are more demanding and less human than others). All about finding the right situation and your kid knowing him/herself including what makes them happy and what their goals are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. So crazy that I think I may be crazy for posing this semi-hypothetical. Assume I have a son who is a talented athlete, but not baseball. SJC is on the short list. Do I assume the extortion is contained to baseball and it’s fine to send him to SJC? Or do I assume a school with an administration that allows this will never be looking out for my kid?

A school that allows this will tolerate many other things that might not be in your child's best interest.

My kid plays soccer and not for that club team. He didn’t even apply to SJC. We knew about this long before this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

Not for me. I went to HS in the 80s and every kid on my HS soccer team played Club year-round. But, travel started 3rd/4th. This was in NoVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I went to high school in the early 90's and it wasn't like this at all. There weren't "club" teams. Everyone I knew who was an athlete played only for their high school and most played multiple sports. The most we did was do a week of summer camp at some random place. Coaches also were definitely not making money off their players.

There also wasn't "travel" for kids as young as 1st grade like there is now. Think about it. It's SICK!

It is a very different era now, sadly.

One thing, many D1 coaches, particularly football and basketball, prefer multi-sport athletes to someone who is so focused on a single sport. It is so unhealthy, the life lived by the PP above who laid out the 6 year SJC scam.

Football players should be doing wrestling and/or track depending on their position as an example.

I am the PP and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I have one child who excels in the arts and one who excels in athletics. Both are good students and both do a variety of activities. The one who is an athlete is in an independent school where he currently plays soccer, basketball and baseball. He's in MS but will stay there through high school and hopefully continue to play all three sports because he loves to play and not because we are looking for him to play in college.

We had a D1 ball player live with us this summer and he was basically owned by his college. Miserable. All he did was play baseball, eat and sleep. My son adored him, (such a good kid and became a big brother to my son) but it was an eye-opening experience for him as he realized that while it seems really cool to play baseball in college it might not be all it's cracked up to be.

I agree with part of this and somewhat disagree with part.

I agree with the importance of having well rounded kids in high school. Not just athletically (playing different sports) but athletic kids who have non-athletic interests. Big problem for SJC baseball players is that baseball is all consuming and does not allow kids to get involved with anything else (literally) at school. Now imagine you’re one of the kids who dedicates all of his time to baseball there and never gets on the field. It’s a shame and happens a lot. There’s only one reason to keep those kids in the program, and the person it benefits is not the kid.

I somewhat disagree with the notion that kids who play sports in college feel “owned” by the college. Some may feel like this but many do not. Probably depends on the kid (some love nothing more than playing their sport and working at it is never a chore) and the college coach (some are more demanding and less human than others). All about finding the right situation and your kid knowing him/herself including what makes them happy and what their goals are.

Completely agree with both your points. For some reason, you mostly hear bad things about the D1 experience on DCUM. My kid and the majority of his friends playing D1 have loved it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is crazy. So crazy that I think I may be crazy for posing this semi-hypothetical. Assume I have a son who is a talented athlete, but not baseball. SJC is on the short list. Do I assume the extortion is contained to baseball and it’s fine to send him to SJC? Or do I assume a school with an administration that allows this will never be looking out for my kid?

I had a daughter and a son go through SJC and had amazing experiences both athletically and academically playing varsity sports. Both went on to play in college and they experienced none of what is being described in the baseball program with the sports they played. They described baseball is its own club, almost separate from the rest of the school. My daughter called it a cult. I would look into the other programs and not write off SJC as a whole if it is the right fit for your child.

[Anonymous]

Or maybe Johnny just wasn’t good enough to play for the CHAMPS? Methinks that’s the key detail that was conveniently omitted. Somewhere along the way, it became abundantly clear to everybody except Johnny and his parents that Johnny couldn’t hang with a bunch of killers, so then the aggrieved party starts lashing out at the program/coach. Seen this story before.

Coach Gibbs has so many championship rings he struggles to turn door handles. Getting a look from him in the first place is no small feat. You should feel proud. You made it to base camp, but only the elite ascend to the peak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Or maybe Johnny just wasn’t good enough to play for the CHAMPS? Methinks that’s the key detail that was conveniently omitted. Somewhere along the way, it became abundantly clear to everybody except Johnny and his parents that Johnny couldn’t hang with a bunch of killers, so then the aggrieved party starts lashing out at the program/coach. Seen this story before.

Coach Gibbs has so many championship rings he struggles to turn door handles. Getting a look from him in the first place is no small feat. You should feel proud. You made it to base camp, but only the elite ascend to the peak.

oh my god, the coach found the thread!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Or maybe Johnny just wasn’t good enough to play for the CHAMPS? Methinks that’s the key detail that was conveniently omitted. Somewhere along the way, it became abundantly clear to everybody except Johnny and his parents that Johnny couldn’t hang with a bunch of killers, so then the aggrieved party starts lashing out at the program/coach. Seen this story before.

Coach Gibbs has so many championship rings he struggles to turn door handles. Getting a look from him in the first place is no small feat. You should feel proud. You made it to base camp, but only the elite ascend to the peak. [/quote

Got it! The peak is in high school.