Tell us about Kenyon...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Always wise to check first year retention rate for any school being given serious consideration.

First year retention rates: (Data for period 0f 2017 through Fall 2020)

Kenyon 90%
Grinnell 90%
Oberlin 89%
Denison 88%

According to US News, there are 41 LACs with retention rates above 90%.

90% is very good, but not excellent.

This data is iffy, but it makes sense that lower ranked schools see more transfers than higher ranked schools. A few kids for whom it was more of a Likely than a Reach maybe feel they can climb the ladder. Nowhere for you to really climb if you are already at Williams or Amherst.

Agree with this although I think the reason why kids transfer from Williams to say Columbia would apply to Kenyon -- some kids realize they really miss being in or near a city.

It’s a 90% rate at a tiny school, you’re arguing about what like 40 people do. Surely it’s the same random set of issues as any other school, probably only a couple people readying up or moving to a city.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can a conservative attend?

My impression is that a large number of students are from boarding/prep schools. They (talking about the parents more than anything) may not be card carrying Republicans, but they definitely give off that vibe.

No -- just no.

Agree. Some of Those UMC parents might have voted for Romney or McCain, but they’re not card-carrying republicans today.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

If a school wants to even out their income levels, they target poor students by offering need based aid. When it comes to merit, they can dole it out any way they want, with no means test. If giving a 10K coupon to everyone who applies ED means more ED applications, that's an option. This idea that ED is only there to squeeze families is simplistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Always wise to check first year retention rate for any school being given serious consideration.

First year retention rates: (Data for period 0f 2017 through Fall 2020)

Kenyon 90%
Grinnell 90%
Oberlin 89%
Denison 88%

According to US News, there are 41 LACs with retention rates above 90%.

90% is very good, but not excellent.

This data is iffy, but it makes sense that lower ranked schools see more transfers than higher ranked schools. A few kids for whom it was more of a Likely than a Reach maybe feel they can climb the ladder. Nowhere for you to really climb if you are already at Williams or Amherst.

Why do you think that the "data is iffy" ? Especially since it is the schools which provided the data over the 4 year period immediately before Covid struck.

Actually these retention rates probably do not accurately reflect student satisfaction since all of these schools utilize a golden handcuffs approach of widespread, fairly generous merit scholarship grant awards.

I was finding different figures as I searched but the US News data is probably correct. https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-liberal-arts-colleges/freshmen-least-most-likely-return

I stand by my observation that it is mostly correlated with rankings. Carleton has a very high retention rate and Northfield MN isn't exactly non-remote. Nor is Lexington VA but W&L is 97%. Most of these schools are in fairly isolated locations, and some of them have very depressing winters. But the midwest schools certainly have more kids who live more than a few hours from home (the east coast schools tend to skew towards east coast kids whereas the midwest schools are really national with a lot of east coast). Distance from home is probably a variable.

Look, it’s not a magic formula. The smarter the kid (SAT metrics) and the richer the kid, the less likely they are to drop out or transfer. School with lots of smart rich kids have high retention rates. Schools with poor, low-academic kids have low retention rates. There
May be some exceptions to that rule, but not many.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:The simmering virtual of certain recent posts against Kenyon is odd. It’s an awesome excellent liberal arts school. A large percentage of grads go on to grad and professional school. The alum network is very enthusiastic. If you are serious about pursuing a liberal arts education, you should explore it.

This. You can certainly begin a path to Wall Street at Kenyon, but you’ll also get an excellent, well-rounded education. You’ll become a much improved writer, thinker. Wall Street could use a few more people like that.

Lol. You're not going from Kenyon to Wall Street.

Lying Ted Cruz’s wife went to wall street from Pomona College. I am sure it can be done from Kenyon.

Pomona is leaps and bounds better than Kenyon.

In what way(s)? Be specific.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

If a school wants to even out their income levels, they target poor students by offering need based aid. When it comes to merit, they can dole it out any way they want, with no means test. If giving a 10K coupon to everyone who applies ED means more ED applications, that's an option. This idea that ED is only there to squeeze families is simplistic.

It was suggested that merit aid is targeted at rich families more than middle class and upper middle class families. I find that hard to believe and assume they are just targeting high stats kids (who aren’t already getting need based aid- as I understand it, need based aid usually cancels out merit aid, but maybe sometimes you get both). On ED, I don’t think the point is to squeeze the rich ones but it is well known that more affluent families apply ED to improve their odds of acceptance at the cost of not being able to shop merit aid awards against one another. It’s not that the rich are being squeezed by ED, but rather ED gives the rich an opportunity to improve the odds of acceptance to a school they are happy to send their kids to, which in some cases could be a reach. Schools probably give out some merit awards ED so as not to tempt people to wait for RD. The real value of ED is that the student has a higher chance of getting in and the school gets a 99 pct yield so it can keep its overall acceptance rate low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simmering virtual of certain recent posts against Kenyon is odd. It’s an awesome excellent liberal arts school. A large percentage of grads go on to grad and professional school. The alum network is very enthusiastic. If you are serious about pursuing a liberal arts education, you should explore it.

This. You can certainly begin a path to Wall Street at Kenyon, but you’ll also get an excellent, well-rounded education. You’ll become a much improved writer, thinker. Wall Street could use a few more people like that.

Lol. You're not going from Kenyon to Wall Street.

Lying Ted Cruz’s wife went to wall street from Pomona College. I am sure it can be done from Kenyon.

Pomona is leaps and bounds better than Kenyon.

In what way(s)? Be specific.

NP. But I will address this. Both Pomona and Kenyon coincidentally report that 53 percent of their students submit scores.

For Pomona the ranges are: 730-770 verbal, 750-790 math, 33-35 ACT
For Kenyon the ranges are: 700-760 verbal, 670-760 math, 31-34 ACT

So the 50th percentile Pomona student basically looks like the 75th percentile Kenyon student.

Pomona is among the most selective LACs in the US. It may in fact be the hardest one of all to get into.

Based on student test scores, though, “leaps and bounds” doesn’t seem like a fair claim.
As far as other variables- quality of faculty, facilities, etc- hard for me to imagine any of these SLACs have significant quality differences and for the most part it comes down to subjective judgment.
They are both excellent schools. Perhaps Pomona can be more fairly described as “truly exceptional” given its selectivity.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

[Anonymous]

Re the argument that students who doing well in school don't transfer --

My oldest is a senior in college, who transferred after their first year from a USNWR Top 10 to another US NWR Top 10. They have several friends from HS and from college who also transferred within the same range. To be able to transfer these students all had to have very good first-year grades; they weren't transferring because they couldn't hack it at their first school. Their reasons for transferring included: change in major (2); did not like going to school in a rural area (3); did not like going to school in a city (2); did not like social life (4); had a horrible experience with their roommate and found the school administration unwilling to help (1). These are young people making their first major life decision. Is it really so surprising that some would just change their minds?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

I agree, but there will always be people who would rather pay for the Colby (or Williams or Swarthmore) brand name than send their kid to Kenyon or Grinnell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

That's a good assessment. However, does Kenyon actually award generous aid? For the most part, the highest merit awards from Kenyon that I have heard of were between 20-25K for students who were easily getting 30-40K from Oberlin and LACs a tier "down" from Kenyon (Dickinson, Kalamazoo, Denison,. Gettysburg etc.). Full-pay families would still pay over 50K/year for a Kenyon degree instead of 30-40K for other LACs. It seems like Kenyon awards merit aid to flatter UMC families to attend instead of making it possible for kids on an in-state/Purdue budget to go to a private LAC (which is fine, I guess they don't need to buy those students for their metrics and student body composition).