Tell us about Kenyon...

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

I agree, but there will always be people who would rather pay for the Colby (or Williams or Swarthmore) brand name than send their kid to Kenyon or Grinnell.

I would argue that the brand value is almost completely based on USNWR and secondarily student quality (as indicated by things like median test scores). And that can and does change over time (Richmond is tied with Haverford and Wesleyan now!). When I applied to college in the 90s, do you think I felt Colby was prestigious? Uh no. Preppy and fun, lots of boarding schools kids, sure. Certainly its notable alumni list is pretty shabby vs Kenyon which has a much more impressive heritage. Williams and Swarthmore have always been among the best small colleges, and they aren’t going anywhere. But schools with merit policies could get a leg up on the others in the 10-30 range. Richmond certainly has (thanks to its big endowment). W&L gives full merit rides to 10 pct of the class- certainly that has lifted the quality of the student body (not just southern prep school brats now) and helped drive up its brand perception.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

That's a good assessment. However, does Kenyon actually award generous aid? For the most part, the highest merit awards from Kenyon that I have heard of were between 20-25K for students who were easily getting 30-40K from Oberlin and LACs a tier "down" from Kenyon (Dickinson, Kalamazoo, Denison,. Gettysburg etc.). Full-pay families would still pay over 50K/year for a Kenyon degree instead of 30-40K for other LACs. It seems like Kenyon awards merit aid to flatter UMC families to attend instead of making it possible for kids on an in-state/Purdue budget to go to a private LAC (which is fine, I guess they don't need to buy those students for their metrics and student body composition).

Kenyon seems to top out at 25k. Kenyon’s Achilles heel is its endowment; Grinnell and Oberlin have more money which help them overcome some other defects. But Kenyon is working on this and has really grown its endowment in recent years thanks to an ambitious campaign while also getting a $100 million gift for new dorms. They’ve made clear, as the endowment grows, both need based and merit based aid will grow.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

That's a good assessment. However, does Kenyon actually award generous aid? For the most part, the highest merit awards from Kenyon that I have heard of were between 20-25K for students who were easily getting 30-40K from Oberlin and LACs a tier "down" from Kenyon (Dickinson, Kalamazoo, Denison,. Gettysburg etc.). Full-pay families would still pay over 50K/year for a Kenyon degree instead of 30-40K for other LACs. It seems like Kenyon awards merit aid to flatter UMC families to attend instead of making it possible for kids on an in-state/Purdue budget to go to a private LAC (which is fine, I guess they don't need to buy those students for their metrics and student body composition).

A 20k annual merit grant from Kenyon would be super compelling to me. My kid is debating applying ED at places like Hamilton or instead go RD and hope for merit at Kenyon. The problem is you can’t know how it’ll turn out.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The simmering virtual of certain recent posts against Kenyon is odd. It’s an awesome excellent liberal arts school. A large percentage of grads go on to grad and professional school. The alum network is very enthusiastic. If you are serious about pursuing a liberal arts education, you should explore it.

This. You can certainly begin a path to Wall Street at Kenyon, but you’ll also get an excellent, well-rounded education. You’ll become a much improved writer, thinker. Wall Street could use a few more people like that.

Lol. You're not going from Kenyon to Wall Street.

Lying Ted Cruz’s wife went to wall street from Pomona College. I am sure it can be done from Kenyon.

Pomona is leaps and bounds better than Kenyon.

In what way(s)? Be specific.

NP. But I will address this. Both Pomona and Kenyon coincidentally report that 53 percent of their students submit scores.

For Pomona the ranges are: 730-770 verbal, 750-790 math, 33-35 ACT
For Kenyon the ranges are: 700-760 verbal, 670-760 math, 31-34 ACT

So the 50th percentile Pomona student basically looks like the 75th percentile Kenyon student.

Pomona is among the most selective LACs in the US. It may in fact be the hardest one of all to get into.

Based on student test scores, though, “leaps and bounds” doesn’t seem like a fair claim.
As far as other variables- quality of faculty, facilities, etc- hard for me to imagine any of these SLACs have significant quality differences and for the most part it comes down to subjective judgment.
They are both excellent schools. Perhaps Pomona can be more fairly described as “truly exceptional” given its selectivity.

Yeah the fact that some kids at Pomona did slightly better on the SAT than Kenyon kids doesn't seem like it will make your Pomona education "leaps and bounds" better than your Kenyon education.

Lots of colleges try to sell you on the idea that "more selective equals better education" but meh not necessarily.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

That's a good assessment. However, does Kenyon actually award generous aid? For the most part, the highest merit awards from Kenyon that I have heard of were between 20-25K for students who were easily getting 30-40K from Oberlin and LACs a tier "down" from Kenyon (Dickinson, Kalamazoo, Denison,. Gettysburg etc.). Full-pay families would still pay over 50K/year for a Kenyon degree instead of 30-40K for other LACs. It seems like Kenyon awards merit aid to flatter UMC families to attend instead of making it possible for kids on an in-state/Purdue budget to go to a private LAC (which is fine, I guess they don't need to buy those students for their metrics and student body composition).

A 20k annual merit grant from Kenyon would be super compelling to me. My kid is debating applying ED at places like Hamilton or instead go RD and hope for merit at Kenyon. The problem is you can’t know how it’ll turn out.

Interesting dilemma. I would suggest discussing with the AO when the time comes. If your kid is genuinely high stat, he could have some degree of assurance that merit aid would be forthcoming ED. My guess is 34+ with a legitimately impressive transcript would do the trick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The simmering virtual of certain recent posts against Kenyon is odd. It’s an awesome excellent liberal arts school. A large percentage of grads go on to grad and professional school. The alum network is very enthusiastic. If you are serious about pursuing a liberal arts education, you should explore it.

This. You can certainly begin a path to Wall Street at Kenyon, but you’ll also get an excellent, well-rounded education. You’ll become a much improved writer, thinker. Wall Street could use a few more people like that.

Lol. You're not going from Kenyon to Wall Street.

Lying Ted Cruz’s wife went to wall street from Pomona College. I am sure it can be done from Kenyon.

Pomona is leaps and bounds better than Kenyon.

In what way(s)? Be specific.

NP. But I will address this. Both Pomona and Kenyon coincidentally report that 53 percent of their students submit scores.

For Pomona the ranges are: 730-770 verbal, 750-790 math, 33-35 ACT
For Kenyon the ranges are: 700-760 verbal, 670-760 math, 31-34 ACT

So the 50th percentile Pomona student basically looks like the 75th percentile Kenyon student.

Pomona is among the most selective LACs in the US. It may in fact be the hardest one of all to get into.

Based on student test scores, though, “leaps and bounds” doesn’t seem like a fair claim.
As far as other variables- quality of faculty, facilities, etc- hard for me to imagine any of these SLACs have significant quality differences and for the most part it comes down to subjective judgment.
They are both excellent schools. Perhaps Pomona can be more fairly described as “truly exceptional” given its selectivity.

Yeah the fact that some kids at Pomona did slightly better on the SAT than Kenyon kids doesn't seem like it will make your Pomona education "leaps and bounds" better than your Kenyon education.

Lots of colleges try to sell you on the idea that "more selective equals better education" but meh not necessarily.

yeah, perhaps "leaps and bounds" may be more accurately described as "slightly."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone have any experiences with Kenyon merit aid (how much for what stats)? From what I've heard, Oberlin is often more generous for high achieving students but I have pretty limited experience knowing kids attending Kenyon (or elsewhere instead) where Kenyon merit aid was a factor that led them to enroll or decide otherwise.

My understanding is about 25 pct of class gets merit aid of 10k to 25k (or maybe higher). DC got in ED with a 33 but not straight As and received goose egg. ED is supposed to be just as eligible for merit but some speculate it’s not since they already have you.

I believe Oberlin automatically gives 10k to everyone (so it’s not really merit aid but tuition is just lower). Oberlin has a reasonably large endowment as does Grinnell which they seem to use to incentivize families to come to the Midwest. Denison has a large endowment and throws merit aid around too. So Kenyon has to compete with all that.

From what I’ve seen on chat boards high stat RD students (maybe scores above median and strong transcript), if admitted (demonstrated interest is a factor there), will normally get decent merit aid at Kenyon.

Very happy DC is Kenyon bound. Acceptance rate is not as low as some other LACs but the caliber of students is higher than many of the schools USNWR places above it (just compare the CDS to a Bates, Richmond or Colorado). Culturally and academically, it’s as appealing as any other LAC in my opinion, and the alumni seem fanatical. The only issue is location if not from Midwest. Very pleased DC will be attending (though merit aid would have been nice!)

NP also interested - Thank you. Did you fill out FAFSA? I’m wondering if they consider likelihood money would impact decision. Not applicable, I understand to ED, but a family in RD who doesn’t fill it out probably less persuaded by money than a $175,000/year donut hole family?

You might have you're logic wrong, wealthy families love a coupon and bragging rights if it's a scholarship. Kenyon is not need blind, they can use their carrots any way they want.

???

I suspect the vast majority of families could be swayed on the margin by $40-$140k in savings (perhaps not mega millionaires or billionaires). And there is perhaps an emotional component to it, you may be partial to the school that shows you more love. I think for almost anyone, if you are somewhat undecided between two schools, merit aid is an easy tie breaker as it is hard to justify why one school is worth so much more than another similarly prestigious school.

Exactly, it's an emotional coupon. And if the wealthy family is more valuable, than the middle class family, you give them the coupon.

But I think they are most interested in getting the best students, so the coupons go to the high stat kids. This is why Kenyon's acceptance rate is a bit elevated. They are chasing the high stat kids who either didn't get into top 10 LACs and/or can be swayed by merit aid. This may explain why Kenyon has higher test score profiles than other schools with lower acceptance rates (who are perhaps letting even more kids in ED or practicing yield control more aggressively). Frankly, I'd rather my kid attends the school seeking the best students rather than the one gaming the system to have a low acceptance rate.

Parents like to pretend the school is purchasing the student (their high stats kid is valuable) when in reality they are purchasing an education from the school. The school wants the best buyer, someone who can pay for four years and smooth any bumps along the way. They can get good stats at the same time. Paying for test prep is an example of smoothing bumps. Giving a wealthy family a coupon makes sense, word gets out, and more families from their circle apply next year.

I would be surprised if they were specifically targeting the well to do with merit aid but at the same time, need based students are getting their expenses covered that way. So the argument then is that merit aid is going to very high income families over upper middle class who don’t qualify for aid? Seems odd

Also, 45 percent of the class is ED. Everyone who applied ED committed without knowing if they would get any merit aid. As we know, ED is overwhelmingly used by applicants who aren’t concerned about financial aid. This tends to negate the idea that merit aid targets wealthier families. Wealthier families leverage their indifference to aid to increase the probability of getting accepted by applying ED.

Harvards dean has railed against merit aid and schools offering it. It definitely targets people who care about price. I look at college tuition as an example of highly intricate price discrimination. People tend to use airlines as an example, but they actually sell slightly different products whereas colleges have convinced customers that it's acceptable and expected for 100 students to have 100 price points.

Harvard could make college free for every student who attends. I'm not sure Harvard's dean should be the arbiter of what other schools do with their money.

+1

There are lots of students at private schools who wouldn't be there without merit scholarships. If merit money was eliminated altogether, private schools would have very rich and very poor students and everyone else would go to public schools.

This is exactly the case at schools that don’t award merit. Half the class is basically getting a full ride. Half the class can afford to pay 80k a year. It’s barbelled. The middle/upper middle class is squeezed out. This is why merit aid is a good thing and it’s also an advantage merit aid schools have over need only. Merit schools are accessing the talent in the middle. As total cost of attendance continues to the stratosphere, this will be a competitive advantage. Why would anyone go to Hamilton or Colby if they can go to Kenyon for substantially less thanks to a merit award?

I agree, but there will always be people who would rather pay for the Colby (or Williams or Swarthmore) brand name than send their kid to Kenyon or Grinnell.

I would argue that the brand value is almost completely based on USNWR and secondarily student quality (as indicated by things like median test scores). And that can and does change over time (Richmond is tied with Haverford and Wesleyan now!). When I applied to college in the 90s, do you think I felt Colby was prestigious? Uh no. Preppy and fun, lots of boarding schools kids, sure. Certainly its notable alumni list is pretty shabby vs Kenyon which has a much more impressive heritage. Williams and Swarthmore have always been among the best small colleges, and they aren’t going anywhere. But schools with merit policies could get a leg up on the others in the 10-30 range. Richmond certainly has (thanks to its big endowment). W&L gives full merit rides to 10 pct of the class- certainly that has lifted the quality of the student body (not just southern prep school brats now) and helped drive up its brand perception.

PP here and I agree, I should have written "perceived name brand value."

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The simmering virtual of certain recent posts against Kenyon is odd. It’s an awesome excellent liberal arts school. A large percentage of grads go on to grad and professional school. The alum network is very enthusiastic. If you are serious about pursuing a liberal arts education, you should explore it.

This. You can certainly begin a path to Wall Street at Kenyon, but you’ll also get an excellent, well-rounded education. You’ll become a much improved writer, thinker. Wall Street could use a few more people like that.

Lol. You're not going from Kenyon to Wall Street.

Lying Ted Cruz’s wife went to wall street from Pomona College. I am sure it can be done from Kenyon.

Pomona is leaps and bounds better than Kenyon.

In what way(s)? Be specific.

NP. But I will address this. Both Pomona and Kenyon coincidentally report that 53 percent of their students submit scores.

For Pomona the ranges are: 730-770 verbal, 750-790 math, 33-35 ACT
For Kenyon the ranges are: 700-760 verbal, 670-760 math, 31-34 ACT

So the 50th percentile Pomona student basically looks like the 75th percentile Kenyon student.

Pomona is among the most selective LACs in the US. It may in fact be the hardest one of all to get into.

Based on student test scores, though, “leaps and bounds” doesn’t seem like a fair claim.
As far as other variables- quality of faculty, facilities, etc- hard for me to imagine any of these SLACs have significant quality differences and for the most part it comes down to subjective judgment.
They are both excellent schools. Perhaps Pomona can be more fairly described as “truly exceptional” given its selectivity.

Yeah the fact that some kids at Pomona did slightly better on the SAT than Kenyon kids doesn't seem like it will make your Pomona education "leaps and bounds" better than your Kenyon education.

Lots of colleges try to sell you on the idea that "more selective equals better education" but meh not necessarily.

yeah, perhaps "leaps and bounds" may be more accurately described as "slightly."

Not even that, unless you believe that your student will have a slightly better experience being with classmates who scored ever so slightly higher on standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

My DC attended a summer camp there. The advisers warned them not to go out of the campus. Safety was of concern especially for people who are not white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DC attended a summer camp there. The advisers warned them not to go out of the campus. Safety was of concern especially for people who are not white.

That is ridiculous, but you could see why it might make sense to tell high school students not to wander onto a highway that cuts through farmland, which is what going off campus would entail if you didn’t have a car, since the small town of Gambier is embedded in the campus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DC attended a summer camp there. The advisers warned them not to go out of the campus. Safety was of concern especially for people who are not white.

Knox County violent crime rate significantly below US and Ohio average. https://www.bestplaces.net/crime/county/ohio/knox

I think a person of any color is at far higher risk walking around any part of DC or any other urban environment in the US. Cities are where violent crimes disproportionately take place including crimes against people of color.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DC attended a summer camp there. The advisers warned them not to go out of the campus. Safety was of concern especially for people who are not white.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Gambier is Kenyon, and Kenyon is Gambier. There's literally nothing else round, and during the summer it's like a ghost town.

[Anonymous]

We looked at Kenyon last year, were very impressed with the campus and overall vibe. Unfortunately our DD thought it was simply too small and far from...well, everything. Having gone to a VERY small school myself, I didn't see the problem, but it was her choice.

She applied RD and was waitlisted, not an uncommon occurrence last year with the crush of record applications everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We looked at Kenyon last year, were very impressed with the campus and overall vibe. Unfortunately our DD thought it was simply too small and far from...well, everything. Having gone to a VERY small school myself, I didn't see the problem, but it was her choice.

She applied RD and was waitlisted, not an uncommon occurrence last year with the crush of record applications everywhere.

Yes, I know a number of friends' kids who applied to Kenyon and similar schools in the likely category last year, then were shocked when they ended up on WL in RD.

[Anonymous]

Will a 1450 Sat and HHI at 150 be enough to be considered for Kenyon granted scholarship/aid?