The subtle micro aggressions of islamophobia

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It is absolutely, positively wrong for any Muslim to say who is a true Muslim or who isn't. That judgment and determination is with God/Allah alone. I have not seen the immigrant poster's statement to this effect but I trust you if you say he made such a statement. If he did, it was absolutely wrong.

You are lying. You responded to the post calling Shias non-Muslim with a mild approval. How can you possibly say you haven't see it?

Oh please. Do you ever tire of twisting and wringing the truth? I said Shias do engage in some inappropriate behavior but they are indeed Muslim. That is "mild approval"?? You have comprehension challenges.

Wow! I missed this gem earlier.

Catholics do engage in some inappropriate behavior but they are indeed Christian.

[Anonymous]

Brace yourselves... Incoming.... multiple very long posts expected at midnight, all aimed at recasting all these threads and to advance the thread last pages that embarrass OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It sounds like OP is recruiting suckers for the war in Syria.

Like this guy:
http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/26375925/report-robbinsdale-copper-grad-killed-fighting-for-isis-in-syria

or these girls:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/schoolgirl-jihadis-female-islamists-leaving-home-join-isis-iraq-syria

or the French guy who cut off the US aid-worker's head:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/29/schoolgirl-jihadis-female-islamists-leaving-home-join-isis-iraq-syria

That's completely uncalled for. You crossed the line here.

I don't think I did. OP is misrepresenting her religion in a myriad of ways, most of them designed to make it more palatable to Westerners. It's a classic recruiting tactic used by other types of cults. And many Muslim operatives are recruiting Westerners in a variety of forums at the moment.

Wait. So you get to post what my religion is all about and I, as a Muslim, am not permitted to correct you or even defend my faith? And if I do, I am a jihadist? Your post exemplifies islamophobia. It is deeply and utterly offensive. However, it will hopefully be useful to the writers who are looking for, as they asked, "the most egregious posts."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so two months ago on a different thread?

+1. This post calling Islam barbaric dates from 9/6. Reminds me of her obsession with the one poster who called Mohammed a pedophile, way back in August.

Meanwhile, OP
- called Mary a "rock star slut" for conceiving a son out of wedlock
Yes, I did…not because I believe that, but to show you the fallacy and offensiveness of islamophobe's post calling the Muslim prophet a "pedophile."
- said that Christians aren't monotheists
Not really. What I said was that Islam rejects associating partners with God or believing that God can be a man.
- has no apparent objection to the Muslim poster who says Shi'ites aren't Muslims and we shouldn't trust Sufis
Any poster, Muslim or not, has the right to say who he trusts and who he thinks we should not trust. In Islam it is wrong to accuse anyone of not being a Muslim, however.
- has called individual posters bad cooks, retarded (her word, not mine), Pakistanis, unemployed, and more that I'm probably forgetting
I don't recall calling anyone "retarded". Where is that post? And why is it bad to say someone is Pakistani?
- has called all of us Christian-evangelical-crusading gap-toothed STD-ridden grannies in mini-skirts with drug-addicted kids.
That has been apologized for. If you are unable to accept the apology, that is not my issue. It was in response to islamophobe suggesting Muslima post a pic of herself with her veil to garner public sympathy and to also show the offensiveness of stereotyping Muslims and Islam as barbaric. I had hoped that by drawing attention to typical American stereotypes, you would see how offensive and hurtful stereotyping can be. Apparently, you did not.

You can all do the math....

Meanwhile, many threads with disagreements over the meaning of "equality" and whether you have to have equal divorce/inheritance laws for there to be equaliry. That's right, the vast majority of posts have been disagreements on substantive issues.

I have quoted Leila Ahmed from her book and I will quote other scholars on their view of the very same issue. I haven't had the time to do that yet, but when I do you will see that for the vast majority of Muslim women, they do feel there is equity AND equality in Islam. It's just not the linear type of equality westerners understand.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so two months ago on a different thread?

+1. This post calling Islam barbaric dates from 9/6. Reminds me of her obsession with the one poster who called Mohammed a pedophile, way back in August.

Meanwhile, OP
- called Mary a "rock star slut" for conceiving a son out of wedlock
- said that Christians aren't monotheists
- has no apparent objection to the Muslim poster who says Shi'ites aren't Muslims and we shouldn't trust Sufis
- has called individual posters bad cooks, retarded (her word, not mine), Pakistanis, unemployed, and more that I'm probably forgetting
- has called all of us Christian-evangelical-crusading gap-toothed STD-ridden grannies in mini-skirts with drug-addicted kids.

You can all do the math....

Meanwhile, many threads with disagreements over the meaning of "equality" and whether you have to have equal divorce/inheritance laws for there to be equaliry. That's right, the vast majority of posts have been disagreements on substantive issues.

No, it's not an obsession. A poster said no one made the claim that Muslims or Islam was barbaric. I found the post where a poster had indeed called Muslims/Islam barbaric and republished it. Simply refuting yet another one of your claims. You can not expect that if you make a false claim, I should remain silent. And if I refute the claim you make, you can not then call me obsessed for refuting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/315/221619.page#5972250, post at 18.47. The style is unmistakably yours.

"If the program is going to show Muslims, it's a bit strange to practice people who may not even practice Islam."

So, still want to say you didn't see it?

First of all, I do not agree with that poster's assertion that Shia are nonMuslim. My own husband is Shia. I did not even read that part of his comment. I read the part where he describes the haram money making activities, the tattoos…These things may show a person is not practicing Islam. But one can fail to practice Islam in his or her life but still remain a Muslim if they still believe in one God and acknowledge that Muhammad is the last messenger of God. The best of Muslims are those who have the belief and the practice. The worst of Muslims may be the ones who may still retain the belief but not the practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It isn't uncommon for Muslims to judge one another, much the same way Christians or Jews may judge one another. I'm not sure where you got the idea I would defend any Muslim engaged in wrongdoing.

Ummm....from the fact that it took you several days and several rounds of shaming from different posters to finally do it? By contrast, you take only minutes to respond to posters you call Islamophobes. One can see where your priorities lie.

And even when you did it, you included a bold-faced lie that you never saw these posts before, when in fact you responded to one of them in the past.

That immigrant poster was never on my radar, the Islamophobes are. They are the subject of the articles soon to be written and I am immersed in helping the writers right out. I only noticed the Islamophobe picking on his English, which I thought was lowly, even for the Islamophobe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not the PP that OP is addressing, but I too own Dr. Ahmed's book, thanks to reading about it here a few weeks ago. It's not available as an ebook, but the paperback arrived within 2-3 days.

OP, I disagree with your characterization of this book. Dr. Ahmad's story is indeed nuanced: the point is, pre-Islamic Arabia is a patchwork, contrary to the earlier assertions from you and Muslima that Islam made things better for women in Arabia. I don't see why you quoted from Dr. Ahmed about the Abbassids, when we've focussed on the Quran (and not even Hadith) here.

I find objectionable your murky suggestions of evolution in Dr. Ahmed's conclusions, and your murky insinuation that Dr. Ahmed moved off the unflattering statements at the front of the book. She didn't. As an aside, I'm a researcher myself, and I agree with PP that authors' opinions don't "evolve" as they write. Please. An author who did that, who wrote a book that was internally inconsistent, would never get published.

Post the paragraphs please that support your opinion.

Why don't YOU post the paragraphs where Leila Ahmed says, "hey, earlier in the book I said X. But now, I really think it is Y." That's what evolution means.

I will, when I have the time. Right now my focus is primarily on helping the writers in their investigation and research. I think I have already shown that I own Leila Ahmed's book and I have published numerous paragraphs from her book that show her positive impression of Islam. Of course you are left wondering why she wrote something differently in the first two chapters, however, and I can understand your confusion. So why don't you order her book and read it yourself because no matter what I publish, I'm sure I will be accused of misrepresenting her opinion. Although, I do wonder how likely you will be to order a book written by an author who has a favorable impression of Islam the religion. Leila Ahmed does explain why her opinion evolves in the latter chapters. And my guess as to why the publisher chose to provide that specific paragraph on google preview is to persuade those who have a negative impression of Islam to buy her book. Her knowledge of history is amazing and she explains, in a beautiful reasonable way, why Islam is truly an egalitarian religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all keep talking about "subtle micro-agressions." In the meantime, your fellow Muslims cut the head off another aid worker and released a video this morning.

When Muslims stop blatant aggression and violence against non-Muslims, maybe we can talk about "subtle micro-aggressions."

Yes, I suppose Muslima and I did that early this morning, just before we fed our children breakfast and sent them off to school. You would not want people to blame you for the actions of others, so don't blame all Muslims for the actions of extremists.

If you stand by and say nothing while your fellow religionists murder aid workers, then you are part of the problem. You endorse their actions with your silence. You endorse their actions with your posturing as a highly persecuted minority that needs to "fight back."

I don't blame her for ISIS, and she has condemned them. Closer to home, I do think she has a moral obligation to condem the poster who said, a few days ago, that Shi'ites aren't Muslims and we shouldn't trust Sunnis. Waiting....

It is absolutely, positively wrong for any Muslim to say who is a true Muslim or who isn't. That judgment and determination is with God/Allah alone. I have not seen the immigrant poster's statement to this effect but I trust you if you say he made such a statement. If he did, it was absolutely wrong.

That said, there are certain criteria for being a Muslim. One needs only to believe 1) There is one God only 2) Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger. Implied in the second part of this oath is that one acknowledges there is a long line of messengers and prophets from God such as Adam, Jonah, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, Lot, etc…and Muhammad is the last one. That is it. There are many different ways of interpreting Islam, for sure, and Muslims are permitted to criticize and debate which way is correct. However, it is absolutely wrong to make a judgment as to who is a Muslim.

It isn't uncommon for Muslims to judge one another, much the same way Christians or Jews may judge one another. I'm not sure where you got the idea I would defend any Muslim engaged in wrongdoing.

You saw the post. You can keep saying you didn't but you know you did.

I find it odd that you state the above bolded- because you've been clear before about what is "True Islam" (anyone that doesn't agree with you) and some not being "true" Muslims.

But at least you are being truthful in stating that you believe only 'Muslims are permitted to criticize and debate which way is correct.'

In which case, why are you posting so much about Islam on non Muslim boards? Why not just post your thoughts on Islam on Islamic boards frequented by only Muslims so there could at least be some dialogue. You post here, then get upset that others comment on your posts then start name calling.

If you can only discuss Islam with other Muslims, then please feel free to leave this board and do so. Why waste time here if no one else is "permitted" to criticize or debate the interpretations of Islam?

The only people who refer to themselves as Muslims but who I believe are not Muslims are the extremists who kill innocent people (ISIS, Osama Bin Laden, etc..) Their acts are so egregious, so offensive to Islam, and so harmful to not only Islam but all of society and that compels me to say they can not be true Muslims.

I find it fascinating but quite sad that you consider DCUM a nonMuslim board, this religion forum a nonMuslim forum, and this thread a nonMuslim thread. DCUM does not fall under the umbrella of any particular religion. From my understanding, people of any faith can post. This forum is titled, "Religion", which means it is open for people of all religions to post. This thread was started by me, a Muslim, and it is about Islam and the kind of discrimination Muslims suffer.

Is it your assertion that the Islamophobes be permitted to publish negative information about my faith but I not be permitted to rebut or correct any false statements?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Did I miss something here? Where did Jeff argue with the person you call Islamaphobe? Where did he tell this person he thought she had an agenda?

I didn't see that either, but most people won't search through the thread to verify and will only see the accusation above, which perhaps is the motivation for planting it there -- to give the person credibility.

then of course there's the "private correspondences" which can't be proven -- unless Jeff comes on to attest to them.

--------------------------------------------------------

I just had to take the time to find these because I wanted the DCUM readership to know what bold face liars these Islamophobes are. Shame on you, Islamophobes. Now I hope everyone on DCUM knows you do have an agenda to spread hate.

Note specifically that one poster did, in fact, use the word "barbaric" to describe Islam/Muslims and Jeff did not agree.



Subject: Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele
Site Admin
Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900
Online Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm a different poster. My concern all along has been that Muslima and her alter ego make blanket assertions that themselves misrepresent the diversity in Islam you so correctly point out.

Muslima is certainly entitled to her own, personal Islam. You and I actually agree that there is no one interpretation of many Islamic tenets.

Except, IMO, she veers into much shadier territory when she claims things that are directly contradicted in the Quran. I'm not so worried about hadith and sharia, but the Quran is purportedly God's own words. So when she makes glowing claims about women's equality and female captives, do you see a problem with people pointing out what the Quran actually says about these issues? IMO, if only the glowing bits are presented, DCUM starts to look like a conversion effort and readers miss the range of Islamic thought you so correctly point out.


Of course you are free to take a contrary view.


Except then I get called a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. Isn't that a little concerning, too?

I don't read the other poster as telling Muslima what to believe. There's a big difference between telling Muslima what to believe, and explaining to the general audience of readers here the many gaps (deliberate? Who knows) in Muslima's presentation and where exactly she's out of step with her own holy book and the eminent theologians in her faith. The other PP is pretty knowledgeable about Islam, and she's explaining to all of us the huge range of thought across Islam that you agree exists. Whether or not Muslima is trying to win converts is something we can't know. I, for one, am grateful to the knowledgeable PP for widening my knowledge of Islam as it's practiced by a billion plus people. If explaining the wide range of Islam--again, we agree this range exists--is tantamount to a deliberate campaign to "spread a negative perception of Islam" (your words, or as a Muslim PP here would say, part of a racist-Christian-evangelist-Islamophobic crusade), then I don't know how we can even discuss Islam here.


I don't know you are directing this post to me. I have not called you a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. There are a lot of posters in this thread and it's a bit to tell one anonymous poster from another. But, there are clearly posters here who appear primarily committed to spreading negative information about Islam.

I think when someone picks a topic such as slavery or concubines and attempts to convey that this is an accepted and non-controversial practice that is unquestioned within the religion, when in fact very few adherents actually believe such a thing and there is quite a bit of debate among scholars, that poster is attempting to spread negative perceptions of Islam. If the poster was solely interested in providing broader perspective, the poster would not completely ignore common practice.

Islam, like any religion, is an easy target for criticism. It is fair to question its practices. But, just as I illustrated here with the example of Hagar, most posters here are not willing to subject mainstream Western religions to the same scrutiny. That suggests a certain basic lack of fairness.


09/06/2014 16:33
Subject: Re:Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele
Site Admin

Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900
Offline Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Because Islam does not work that way. You either accept Islam or you reject it. There is no half way. You either embrace the barbarism, or you are not a Muslim.


This is BS. If you believe that embracing barbarism is necessary to being a Muslim, you really do deserve to be described with some of the negative terms being discussed in this thread.


Barbarism is a value judgment. But the PP is correct in a sense that calling yourself a follower of a particular religion means you embrace it in toto, both beautiful as well as unlovely bits. If some of it appears barbaric to the outsiders, well, OK.


Then all Christians should be expected to embrace the barbarism committed by such groups as the Lord's Resistance Army, abortion clinic bombers, and the Christian Identity Movement? Do mainstream Christians embrace the hate of the Jonesboro Baptists?

Your statement is actually ludicrous. Most members of a religion cannot even agree on what the religion itself embraces, let alone embrace all of it. If there were one true Judaism, why would there be Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Is a reform Jew embracing every practice of a Hassid?



09/06/2014 17:14
Subject: Re:Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele
Site Admin
Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900
Online Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:

For your argument to have any standing, the practice of owning concubines would need to be practically the rule among Muslims rather than limited to extremist groups. When a practice is limited to extremists, it is by definition not part of the generally accepted practice of the religion.

I really don't know what you expect from the average Muslim. Very few would agree that taking concubines is acceptable. Is your intent to demonstrate to them that they are not properly following their religion? Do you want them to suddenly agree with your that Islam is barbaric and stop being Muslims? Do you not understand how insulting your approach is to most people -- Muslim or otherwise?

Accepted practice and scriptural support is not the same thing. The practice may not exist any more, but as long as the scholars of the religion continue to support it or refuse to condemn it (not the extremists, the actual learned scholars), you can't argue that it is no longer acceptable to the followers of the religion. The fact that it is practically impossible is less relevant here. We aren't discussing practice, we are discussing what is permissible as far as the religion is concerned.

And I'm perfectly fine extending this rule to all religion.


Okay, then, in your own words, Jews and Christians embrace the practice of taking concubines based on that fact that Abraham took Hagar as a concubine. This said, I am not sure why you are only criticizing Muslims in this regard.

I am astounded that you have decided that you are not only authorized to tell Muslims what is permissible in their religion, but to make your judgement regardless of general practices.

I again ask, do you expect average Muslims to agree with you and begin taking concubines or do you expect them to reject their religion? Or, are they only supposed to bow down to your obviously superior knowledge of their religion? It looks to me that your only interest is spreading a negative perception of Islam despite the fact that your effort is based on something that is practically unknown among Muslims.

Lets bump this up to make sure the DCUM readership sees that the Islamophobes were called out a while back for having an agenda by Jeff himself.

Perhaps I should do a daily or weekly bump of this to remind the DCUM readership of how Jeff called out these Islam haters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It isn't uncommon for Muslims to judge one another, much the same way Christians or Jews may judge one another. I'm not sure where you got the idea I would defend any Muslim engaged in wrongdoing.

Ummm....from the fact that it took you several days and several rounds of shaming from different posters to finally do it? By contrast, you take only minutes to respond to posters you call Islamophobes. One can see where your priorities lie.

And even when you did it, you included a bold-faced lie that you never saw these posts before, when in fact you responded to one of them in the past.

That immigrant poster was never on my radar, the Islamophobes are. They are the subject of the articles soon to be written and I am immersed in helping the writers right out. I only noticed the Islamophobe picking on his English, which I thought was lowly, even for the Islamophobe.

So, you admit that you lied when you said you never saw the post calling Shias non-Muslim?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Perhaps I should do a daily or weekly bump of this to remind the DCUM readership of how Jeff called out these Islam haters.

What you should do is take a tawhid remedial course because you're coming dangerously close to worshiping Jeff as a partner to God.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/315/221619.page#5972250, post at 18.47. The style is unmistakably yours.

"If the program is going to show Muslims, it's a bit strange to practice people who may not even practice Islam."

So, still want to say you didn't see it?

First of all, I do not agree with that poster's assertion that Shia are nonMuslim. My own husband is Shia. I did not even read that part of his comment. I read the part where he describes the haram money making activities, the tattoos…These things may show a person is not practicing Islam. But one can fail to practice Islam in his or her life but still remain a Muslim if they still believe in one God and acknowledge that Muhammad is the last messenger of God. The best of Muslims are those who have the belief and the practice. The worst of Muslims may be the ones who may still retain the belief but not the practice.

So now the story is that you DID see it, you just didn't happen to see THAT part of it?

Very nice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Y'all keep talking about "subtle micro-agressions." In the meantime, your fellow Muslims cut the head off another aid worker and released a video this morning.

When Muslims stop blatant aggression and violence against non-Muslims, maybe we can talk about "subtle micro-aggressions."

Yes, I suppose Muslima and I did that early this morning, just before we fed our children breakfast and sent them off to school. You would not want people to blame you for the actions of others, so don't blame all Muslims for the actions of extremists.

If you stand by and say nothing while your fellow religionists murder aid workers, then you are part of the problem. You endorse their actions with your silence. You endorse their actions with your posturing as a highly persecuted minority that needs to "fight back."

I don't blame her for ISIS, and she has condemned them. Closer to home, I do think she has a moral obligation to condem the poster who said, a few days ago, that Shi'ites aren't Muslims and we shouldn't trust Sunnis. Waiting....

It is absolutely, positively wrong for any Muslim to say who is a true Muslim or who isn't. That judgment and determination is with God/Allah alone. I have not seen the immigrant poster's statement to this effect but I trust you if you say he made such a statement. If he did, it was absolutely wrong.

That said, there are certain criteria for being a Muslim. One needs only to believe 1) There is one God only 2) Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger. Implied in the second part of this oath is that one acknowledges there is a long line of messengers and prophets from God such as Adam, Jonah, Joseph, Moses, Jesus, Lot, etc…and Muhammad is the last one. That is it. There are many different ways of interpreting Islam, for sure, and Muslims are permitted to criticize and debate which way is correct. However, it is absolutely wrong to make a judgment as to who is a Muslim.

It isn't uncommon for Muslims to judge one another, much the same way Christians or Jews may judge one another. I'm not sure where you got the idea I would defend any Muslim engaged in wrongdoing.

You saw the post. You can keep saying you didn't but you know you did.

I find it odd that you state the above bolded- because you've been clear before about what is "True Islam" (anyone that doesn't agree with you) and some not being "true" Muslims.

But at least you are being truthful in stating that you believe only 'Muslims are permitted to criticize and debate which way is correct.'

In which case, why are you posting so much about Islam on non Muslim boards? Why not just post your thoughts on Islam on Islamic boards frequented by only Muslims so there could at least be some dialogue. You post here, then get upset that others comment on your posts then start name calling.

If you can only discuss Islam with other Muslims, then please feel free to leave this board and do so. Why waste time here if no one else is "permitted" to criticize or debate the interpretations of Islam?

The only people who refer to themselves as Muslims but who I believe are not Muslims are the extremists who kill innocent people (ISIS, Osama Bin Laden, etc..) Their acts are so egregious, so offensive to Islam, and so harmful to not only Islam but all of society and that compels me to say they can not be true Muslims.

I find it fascinating but quite sad that you consider DCUM a nonMuslim board, this religion forum a nonMuslim forum, and this thread a nonMuslim thread. DCUM does not fall under the umbrella of any particular religion. From my understanding, people of any faith can post. This forum is titled, "Religion", which means it is open for people of all religions to post. This thread was started by me, a Muslim, and it is about Islam and the kind of discrimination Muslims suffer.

Is it your assertion that the Islamophobes be permitted to publish negative information about my faith but I not be permitted to rebut or correct any false statements?

I'm starting to sense a bit of reading comprehension issues. Let me make it a little simpler for you- You want to start multiple posts about Islam but you will only accept responses that do not contradict your opinions. If someone is not on board with what your saying, you NAME CALL- Islamaphobes! This is because you believe only Muslims should be able to debate Islam.

Rebut or correct all you want, but don't name call and call someone an Islamaphobe because they still don't agree with you. Oh and then threaten with I'm going to out you posts because you don't like what you hear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Perhaps I should do a daily or weekly bump of this to remind the DCUM readership of how Jeff called out these Islam haters.

What you should do is take a tawhid remedial course because you're coming dangerously close to worshiping Jeff as a partner to God.