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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Did I miss something here? Where did Jeff argue with the person you call Islamaphobe?  Where did he tell this person he thought she had an agenda?[/quote]

I didn't see that either, but most people won't search through the thread to verify and will only see the accusation above, which perhaps is the motivation for planting it there -- to give the person credibility.

then of course there's the "private correspondences" which can't be proven -- unless Jeff comes on to attest to them.[/quote]

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[b]I just had to take the time to find these because I wanted the DCUM readership to know what bold face liars these Islamophobes are. Shame on you, Islamophobes. Now I hope everyone on DCUM knows you do have an agenda to spread hate.

Note specifically that one poster did, in fact, use the word "barbaric" to describe Islam/Muslims and Jeff did not agree. 
[/b]

Subject: Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele 
Site Admin 
Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900 
Online 	Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm a different poster. My concern all along has been that Muslima and her alter ego make blanket assertions that themselves misrepresent the diversity in Islam you so correctly point out.

Muslima is certainly entitled to her own, personal Islam. You and I actually agree that there is no one interpretation of many Islamic tenets.

Except, IMO, she veers into much shadier territory when she claims things that are directly contradicted in the Quran. I'm not so worried about hadith and sharia, but the Quran is purportedly God's own words. So when she makes glowing claims about women's equality and female captives, do you see a problem with people pointing out what the Quran actually says about these issues? IMO, if only the glowing bits are presented, DCUM starts to look like a conversion effort and readers miss the range of Islamic thought you so correctly point out.

Of course you are free to take a contrary view.

Except then I get called a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. Isn't that a little concerning, too?

I don't read the other poster as telling Muslima what to believe. There's a big difference between telling Muslima what to believe, and explaining to the general audience of readers here the many gaps (deliberate? Who knows) in Muslima's presentation and where exactly she's out of step with her own holy book and the eminent theologians in her faith. The other PP is pretty knowledgeable about Islam, and she's explaining to all of us the huge range of thought across Islam that you agree exists. Whether or not Muslima is trying to win converts is something we can't know. I, for one, am grateful to the knowledgeable PP for widening my knowledge of Islam as it's practiced by a billion plus people. If explaining the wide range of Islam--again, we agree this range exists--is tantamount to a deliberate campaign to "spread a negative perception of Islam" (your words, or as a Muslim PP here would say, part of a racist-Christian-evangelist-Islamophobic crusade), then I don't know how we can even discuss Islam here.

I don't know you are directing this post to me. I have not called you a Christian-Evangelist-Crusader-Racist-Islamophobe. There are a lot of posters in this thread and it's a bit to tell one anonymous poster from another. [b]But, there are clearly posters here who appear primarily committed to spreading negative information about Islam. 
[/b]
I think when someone picks a topic such as slavery or concubines and attempts to convey that this is an accepted and non-controversial practice that is unquestioned within the religion, when in fact very few adherents actually believe such a thing and there is quite a bit of debate among scholars, that poster is attempting to spread negative perceptions of Islam. If the poster was solely interested in providing broader perspective, the poster would not completely ignore common practice.

Islam, like any religion, is an easy target for criticism. It is fair to question its practices. But, just as I illustrated here with the example of Hagar, most posters here are not willing to subject mainstream Western religions to the same scrutiny. [b]That suggests a certain basic lack of fairness. [/b]

09/06/2014 16:33
Subject: Re:Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele 
Site Admin

Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900 
Offline 	Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

[b]Because Islam does not work that way. You either accept Islam or you reject it. There is no half way. You either embrace the barbarism, or you are not a Muslim.
[/b]

[b]This is BS. If you believe that embracing barbarism is necessary to being a Muslim, you really do deserve to be described with some of the negative terms being discussed in this thread. [/b]

Barbarism is a value judgment. But the PP is correct in a sense that calling yourself a follower of a particular religion means you embrace it in toto, both beautiful as well as unlovely bits. If some of it appears barbaric to the outsiders, well, OK.

Then all Christians should be expected to embrace the barbarism committed by such groups as the Lord's Resistance Army, abortion clinic bombers, and the Christian Identity Movement? Do mainstream Christians embrace the hate of the Jonesboro Baptists?

Your statement is actually ludicrous. Most members of a religion cannot even agree on what the religion itself embraces, let alone embrace all of it. If there were one true Judaism, why would there be Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, etc. Is a reform Jew embracing every practice of a Hassid?

09/06/2014 17:14
Subject: Re:Be Wary of Racism and Islamophobes
jsteele 
Site Admin 
Joined: 11/12/2007 23:38
Messages: 15900 
Online 	Anonymous wrote:
jsteele wrote:

For your argument to have any standing, the practice of owning concubines would need to be practically the rule among Muslims rather than limited to extremist groups. When a practice is limited to extremists, it is by definition not part of the generally accepted practice of the religion.

I really don't know what you expect from the average Muslim. Very few would agree that taking concubines is acceptable. Is your intent to demonstrate to them that they are not properly following their religion? [b]Do you want them to suddenly agree with your that Islam is barbaric and stop being Muslims? Do you not understand how insulting your approach is to most people -- Muslim or otherwise?[/b]

Accepted practice and scriptural support is not the same thing. The practice may not exist any more, but as long as the scholars of the religion continue to support it or refuse to condemn it (not the extremists, the actual learned scholars), you can't argue that it is no longer acceptable to the followers of the religion. The fact that it is practically impossible is less relevant here. We aren't discussing practice, we are discussing what is permissible as far as the religion is concerned.

And I'm perfectly fine extending this rule to all religion.

Okay, then, in your own words, Jews and Christians embrace the practice of taking concubines based on that fact that Abraham took Hagar as a concubine. This said, I am not sure why you are only criticizing Muslims in this regard.

[b]I am astounded that you have decided that you are not only authorized to tell Muslims what is permissible in their religion, but to make your judgement regardless of general practices. 
[/b]
I again ask, do you expect average Muslims to agree with you and begin taking concubines or do you expect them to reject their religion? Or, are they only supposed to bow down to your obviously superior knowledge of their religion? [b]It looks to me that your only interest is spreading a negative perception of Islam despite the fact that your effort is based on something that is practically unknown among Muslims[/b].

[/quote]

Lets bump this up to make sure the DCUM readership sees that the Islamophobes were called out a while back for having an agenda by Jeff himself. [/quote]
Perhaps I should do a daily or weekly bump of this to remind the DCUM readership of how Jeff called out these Islam haters.[/quote]

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