American Women Are Giving Up on Marriage (Wall Street Journal)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

You don’t think young women grow up in this dynamic? Seeing their working mom slave away while dad does $hit all sitting on the couch? Gmafb. You are not giving women enough credit here. Are you a man?

I’m a woman of a young adult daughter. She and girlfriends absolutely want marriage but they have high standards. They want smart, ambitious, college educated. Guys like that have no problem finding women but there are more women on that category than men.

ie, women have stepped up their game, but men have not. It's why we have incels.

As a mom also of sons - how do we fix this?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Marriage and raising children are getting harder and harder for most young people around the world. Families have to be involved in supporting the couple, men and women have to workout their own equation in how to have a smooth functioning household, well raised children and enough money to live in a planet where fundamentals like housing, food, medical care, education, retirement etc are becoming more and more expensive.

The problem is that the entire majority White American society has lived for several generations in a society where everyone had access to easily available and excess resources without putting in the effort towards education, skills building, family and society building. Now the rules of the world is changing and there is no compatibility in the corporate world and the personal life.

American women have an expectation of equality in the home front as well as on the professional world. But, without the training, they are falling in both. Indeed, the lives of White American women actually becomes worse when they are married or when they have children. There is no validation they will get from themselves or society or corporate America when they are good moms, good wives or good workers. Also, society does not have their back if they get divorced.

Umm yea, I get validation from my job in the form of a paycheck that I use to support myself and my child. My pay was always more than my ex’s and now supports me just fine post divorce.

What “training” do American women need pray tell?

Training in birth-control, getting college education, running a household and being able to adult, raising good future citizens, attracting high quality mates, how to build families and a support network, how to be productive members, how to negotiate pay parity.

Women are keeping all of that going. Sure there are some women who are helpless but I've run into way more men who don't know how to do painfully basic tasks to take care of themselves. Budgeting, cooking, cleaning, making appointment.

My MIL actually asked me why I wasn't making my husband's dental appointments (don't worry he does it himself just fine). But that's sadly the norm for so many men.

How did you respond!?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Somewhat.

But also, the “cat is out of the bag” how helpless married men are to live with and raise kids with. That is no longer a secret.

This is what my daughters saw on the regular for years…. No amount of propping him up could save him.

+1000 Mine will marry whatever is opposite of their father. Or not marry

I would be thrilled if mine found the contemporary equivalent of their father.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

You don’t think young women grow up in this dynamic? Seeing their working mom slave away while dad does $hit all sitting on the couch? Gmafb. You are not giving women enough credit here. Are you a man?

I’m a woman of a young adult daughter. She and girlfriends absolutely want marriage but they have high standards. They want smart, ambitious, college educated. Guys like that have no problem finding women but there are more women on that category than men.

ie, women have stepped up their game, but men have not. It's why we have incels.

As a mom also of sons - how do we fix this?

I'm the PP, and also a mom of a son (and daughter).

IMO, it's about expectations from an early age.

Behavior, sympathy, compassion, chores, grades, volunteering.

We set all these expectations early on, like starting from when DS (and DD) was a toddler.

IMO, volunteering teaches compassion and sympathy.

I disagree with a PP who stated that being involved in sports helps reduce the probability of becoming an incel. It's not sports that produces a good man.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What's the female equal of red pill/incel?

Your average DCUM Relationships forum poster.

snort.. except most of us on here are married

Lol

[Anonymous]

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If government wants future laborers and tax payers, they'll have to make it affordable for locals to raise kids or let immigrants in.

This! America is so unsupportive of families it’s a joke.

From expensive daycare, to the school day ending before normal work days and random days off school, through $100k+ college tuition…

No wonder. Also, just because women don’t want to settle for loser men that doesn’t necessarily mean they aren’t having children. I have many friends who are SMBC.

Marriage tax!!

This isn’t an American only problem. If anything Americans are lagging behind trends in lower marriage rates that we have seen in Europe for years.

Marriage tax is the fact that a $150k husband and a $150k wife are taxed less income taxes than a $300k/ yr HHI married couple. You literally pay more taxes when legally married. wTF?! state and federal tax brackets are clear on this.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/personal-finance/survey-singles-tax/

Don’t conflate.

Get a friend roommate.

But don’t pretend it’s not in the tax code to take a household at a higher rate of same income as it is for two single roommates in an apartment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

You don’t think young women grow up in this dynamic? Seeing their working mom slave away while dad does $hit all sitting on the couch? Gmafb. You are not giving women enough credit here. Are you a man?

I’m a woman of a young adult daughter. She and girlfriends absolutely want marriage but they have high standards. They want smart, ambitious, college educated. Guys like that have no problem finding women but there are more women on that category than men.

ie, women have stepped up their game, but men have not. It's why we have incels.

As a mom also of sons - how do we fix this?

Incels are just guys who can’t get laid. About a third are on the spectrum. More than half are left of center politically. About 45 percent are not white. Most are not narcissists or psychopaths (if they were they could figure out how to charm their way to sex) but are instead perpetual victims.

Confusing and conflating these sad sacks with red pill or Andrew Tate types is just like when adults who don’t know better freaked out about gangsta rap or video games.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Overall marriage and children are indeed a bad deal for majority of women.

How old are you? You sound like you are young enough to still believe that climbing the corporate ladder has some inherent value or is worth doing in and of itself.

Do men believe that? maybe men should be told to stop climbing the corporate ladder and stay home with their kids.

Men and women are different and the things typically valued in mate selection are different for each. Part of the reason for a lot of the current strife is this weird impulse to try and treat men and women as exactly the same. It never has been and never will be.

lol keep thinking that - that’s the path to total demographic collapse. It never ceases to amaze that men will fret about the fertility rate but refuse to look in the mirror …

You are disputing that men and women are different? Oh dear...

all your “oh dears” are not going to force young women into marriages and babies that they clearly do not want.

lol, avoiding the question. You're out of your depth, girlie.

No men and women are not different when it comes to wanting careers.

Actually, yes they are, but nice try.

No actually they are not, but nice try.

Just because you don’t have it in you doesn’t mean all women don’t. Just like there are a multitude of failure to launch men, they aren’t predestined to be successful or even want to be.

Yes, they are. Stop deluding yourself. Men and women do not want the exact same things in the exact same proportions, no matter how many outliers or edge cases you dredge up. This lie needs to end.

Why are you so insistent upon keeping women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Women are allowed to want a career. Women are allowed to want to provide for themselves and their family. Just because you don’t, or don’t understand that does not negate the millions of women who do.

Non sequitur. Please stick to the points actually raised.

There were no points made.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Overall marriage and children are indeed a bad deal for majority of women.

How old are you? You sound like you are young enough to still believe that climbing the corporate ladder has some inherent value or is worth doing in and of itself.

Do men believe that? maybe men should be told to stop climbing the corporate ladder and stay home with their kids.

Men and women are different and the things typically valued in mate selection are different for each. Part of the reason for a lot of the current strife is this weird impulse to try and treat men and women as exactly the same. It never has been and never will be.

lol keep thinking that - that’s the path to total demographic collapse. It never ceases to amaze that men will fret about the fertility rate but refuse to look in the mirror …

You are disputing that men and women are different? Oh dear...

all your “oh dears” are not going to force young women into marriages and babies that they clearly do not want.

lol, avoiding the question. You're out of your depth, girlie.

No men and women are not different when it comes to wanting careers.

Actually, yes they are, but nice try.

No actually they are not, but nice try.

Just because you don’t have it in you doesn’t mean all women don’t. Just like there are a multitude of failure to launch men, they aren’t predestined to be successful or even want to be.

Yes, they are. Stop deluding yourself. Men and women do not want the exact same things in the exact same proportions, no matter how many outliers or edge cases you dredge up. This lie needs to end.

Why are you so insistent upon keeping women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Women are allowed to want a career. Women are allowed to want to provide for themselves and their family. Just because you don’t, or don’t understand that does not negate the millions of women who do.

Non sequitur. Please stick to the points actually raised.

There were no points made.

Yep, out of your depth. Bye.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Overall marriage and children are indeed a bad deal for majority of women.

How old are you? You sound like you are young enough to still believe that climbing the corporate ladder has some inherent value or is worth doing in and of itself.

Do men believe that? maybe men should be told to stop climbing the corporate ladder and stay home with their kids.

Men and women are different and the things typically valued in mate selection are different for each. Part of the reason for a lot of the current strife is this weird impulse to try and treat men and women as exactly the same. It never has been and never will be.

lol keep thinking that - that’s the path to total demographic collapse. It never ceases to amaze that men will fret about the fertility rate but refuse to look in the mirror …

You are disputing that men and women are different? Oh dear...

all your “oh dears” are not going to force young women into marriages and babies that they clearly do not want.

lol, avoiding the question. You're out of your depth, girlie.

No men and women are not different when it comes to wanting careers.

Actually, yes they are, but nice try.

No actually they are not, but nice try.

Just because you don’t have it in you doesn’t mean all women don’t. Just like there are a multitude of failure to launch men, they aren’t predestined to be successful or even want to be.

Yes, they are. Stop deluding yourself. Men and women do not want the exact same things in the exact same proportions, no matter how many outliers or edge cases you dredge up. This lie needs to end.

Why are you so insistent upon keeping women barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen? Women are allowed to want a career. Women are allowed to want to provide for themselves and their family. Just because you don’t, or don’t understand that does not negate the millions of women who do.

Non sequitur. Please stick to the points actually raised.

There were no points made.

Yep, out of your depth. Bye.

Dude you literally made zero points worth discussing.

[Anonymous]

It’s cultural. The culture out there is telling women that they are so amazing and can do it all, which results in them not wanting to settle at all for someone beneath them (whether it be job wise, looks wise, personality wise). Who does? But many of these women’s standards are unrealistic bc there is a super small percentage of men that are equal to them, and they are all competing against each other. If they date someone who is not as great as them, It also causes them to think, why should I sacrifice (a,b,c) for this person. They are just ok. I should wait it out or just be single. Or they stay in these relationships and get mad bc their bfs are not picking up the slack. The guy is automatically on the out list if they are not contributing equally in some way. The bottom line is everyone is uber selfish and wants to put themselves first. Good marriages are compromises of each partner sacrificing at different points in the marriage. That’s what love is- having to sacrifice and take up your partners burden at different points. But finding a good man or women who won’t take advantage of this is hard. Both women and men don’t want to compromise nowadays, because they feel “taken advantages of”, hence women being “done” with marriage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

Do you think young women are stupid? It’s not hard to see.

Dating isn’t like marriage. It’s hard to see down the line how someone will interact with you once kids come along. Especially if you have lust blinders on.

This was the first generation of young women who truly saw moms work in near equal measure to dads- and breadwin in record numbers. This is also the first generation of young women who were raised in the activity laden nightmare that is modern day parenting. They heard terms like “mental load” and heard about the invisible work of parenting. They saw their parents work their ass off just to pay for daycare, while their standard of living wasn’t guaranteed to rise. This generation of women is neither smarter nor dumber than past- but they sure are more educated on the realities of cost of living/kids/quality of life issues

Agree to disagree. A subset of women may be thinking along these lines and not wanting to marry sure, but is that the primary reason for the decline in marriage? I personally think the other factors I raised, specifically the availability of well paid and educated men, are more relevant to the choice not to marry, and the workload balance is a greater cause for divorce.

You think women are so dumb that they cannot think in advance about what it would be like to be married with kids?

You’ve suggested twice that my comment means I think women are dumb. Bizarre take. I think most women do like the idea of marriage if they could find someone of equal status (emotional intelligence, hardworking, educated) and unfortunately that’s the real issue.

That’s not what the story or data says, but go on.

Jones, who identifies as politically moderate, thinks couples with kids should split household and child care responsibilities equally. She was surprised by just how few of the men she has encountered in D.C. share this view. Either they held traditional ideas about marriage or “were extremely crunchy liberal and wanted to live in a van and drive across the country.”

One bag lifestyle

Digital nomad

Bangkok girls

Save the world complex

Work is too boring for me

Why have a house when you can travel


Ring a bell anyone?

No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t buy that women who have never married are focusing on the “unpaid labor” aspect. That’s more of an issue that arises in marriage later on, after kids arrive. I think the likelier explanations are increased working areas, fewer social interactions generally (we see this in studies of Americans having fewer and fewer friendships, some of which would of course lead to romance), economic instability and fewer college educated, emotionally stable and well paid eligible men. More than ever, women are looking for income and education in men.

You don’t think young women grow up in this dynamic? Seeing their working mom slave away while dad does $hit all sitting on the couch? Gmafb. You are not giving women enough credit here. Are you a man?

I’m a woman of a young adult daughter. She and girlfriends absolutely want marriage but they have high standards. They want smart, ambitious, college educated. Guys like that have no problem finding women but there are more women on that category than men.

ie, women have stepped up their game, but men have not. It's why we have incels.

As a mom also of sons - how do we fix this?

They need to learn to compete against women and sometimes lose and not be pouty about it.

Boys are tough if they lose to a girl it’s some horrifying thing because women are less and then if a boy less than a girl, then they’re less than less

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s cultural. The culture out there is telling women that they are so amazing and can do it all, which results in them not wanting to settle at all for someone beneath them (whether it be job wise, looks wise, personality wise). Who does? But many of these women’s standards are unrealistic bc there is a super small percentage of men that are equal to them, and they are all competing against each other. If they date someone who is not as great as them, It also causes them to think, why should I sacrifice (a,b,c) for this person. They are just ok. I should wait it out or just be single. Or they stay in these relationships and get mad bc their bfs are not picking up the slack. The guy is automatically on the out list if they are not contributing equally in some way. The bottom line is everyone is uber selfish and wants to put themselves first. Good marriages are compromises of each partner sacrificing at different points in the marriage. That’s what love is- having to sacrifice and take up your partners burden at different points. But finding a good man or women who won’t take advantage of this is hard. Both women and men don’t want to compromise nowadays, because they feel “taken advantages of”, hence women being “done” with marriage.

Given that women are the most taken advantage of, what you are describing is totally rational. Also research tends to show that single women are happy, so the paternalistic notion that they are being somehow tricked into spinsterhood by “the culture” is a transparently false cope by men who are desperate to deny that on the whole, marriage age motherhood do not benefit women with their own economic power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It’s cultural. The culture out there is telling women that they are so amazing and can do it all, which results in them not wanting to settle at all for someone beneath them (whether it be job wise, looks wise, personality wise). Who does? But many of these women’s standards are unrealistic bc there is a super small percentage of men that are equal to them, and they are all competing against each other. If they date someone who is not as great as them, It also causes them to think, why should I sacrifice (a,b,c) for this person. They are just ok. I should wait it out or just be single. Or they stay in these relationships and get mad bc their bfs are not picking up the slack. The guy is automatically on the out list if they are not contributing equally in some way. The bottom line is everyone is uber selfish and wants to put themselves first. Good marriages are compromises of each partner sacrificing at different points in the marriage. That’s what love is- having to sacrifice and take up your partners burden at different points. But finding a good man or women who won’t take advantage of this is hard. Both women and men don’t want to compromise nowadays, because they feel “taken advantages of”, hence women being “done” with marriage.

Can this trash be illegal?