Parents of small children - how are you managing RTO?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am a mom who managed this problem pre covid. It's not that I want more women to be miserable. I agree that flexibility is priceless for working families and I also agree that RTO will have the largest negative impact on women and that is sad.

But I am also annoyed at how clueless and entitled some of these posts are! This is a common problem that until very recently we all dealt with. It's not a unique attack on you. You can figure it out.

I also agree with the poster who said people used to prioritize commute when buying a home. I recall making a test drive to pick my kids up and drive by our potential new home to see what that would be like before putting in an offer. We didnt put offers in to houses that had more difficult commutes. Even if we loved the space the daily reality of needing to pick up kids and get to from the office was most important.

Sorry it's changing abruptly but not sorry you can't understand that this is life.

So we should all give up are low mortgage rates and buy homes closer in (since there is an abundance of homes on the market and it the COL in DC is so reasonable). Plus uproot our kids from their schools, activities and friends. What a short sighted comment

You made a decision that fit your situation at that time. But it wasn't smart to not plan for a change in situation. The situation has changed so yes you have to pivot. A low mortgage rate on a house located inconveniently isn't a positive thing.

Ohh geese guess I should have used my
Magic 8 ball ten years ago to know this was coming…silly me to think it was smart to have a family and buy a home!

Literally this is real life! You dont need to know what the change may be but you need to anticipate that family and work obligations shift with time. Assuming what you had at time of home purchase was a life long guarantee is very short sighted. Adults understand contingency plans. It's not fun or pleasant but it is real life. If you chose to have kids you should have expected that to alter your commuting or working abilities in some ways.

Your earlier assertion was that individuals should be able to pivot on a whim, as if selling and buying a new home or relocating children is a trivial matter. You also seem to suggest that there shouldn't be any complaints about returning to the office (RTO) b/c every adult must have their entire life meticulously planned out, accounting for every possible contingency. That reality ain’t possible.

DP. We still have elementary school aged kids and made sure to keep before and after care for our kids all through COVID and beyond because we realized this RTO would potentially be a possibility. I’m sorry if you didn’t plan better. It’s not an expense that we wanted but are thankful to still have it, tens of thousands of dollars later. We bought our home knowing we each could commute to office five days a week. We have colleagues that get up at 4 am to make the in person office commute work. There’s going to be no sympathy with this administration if you’re looking for more flexibility. They want you to quit. Either embrace the change and costs or give in to their demands and quit. There’s really no middle ground.

Not all of us commuted to the office 5 days a week pre covid. Majority of federal government employees were on a hybrid schedule.

So you've been more fortunate than most for a longer time. Can you understand why the complaining isn't getting sympathy?

No actually. Part of the reason I chose to work in my agency and not in a law firm was because it allowed me to have a hybrid schedule. I wanted a job where I didn’t have to commute into DC five days a week. Same with my husband. We made our life decisions (such as the decision to have three kids) based on our work schedules. Get it?

And apparently assumed, for some bizarre reason, that it would stay exactly the same in perpetuity until retirement. Your mistake.

+1. I can’t even with this.

Why not. It’s part of the benefit package that they advertise when you get hired: healthcare, dental benefits, paid leave depending on years of service and flexible work options. We make less but have better benefits.

It’s not “part of the benefit package” that your job and responsibilities and situation will remain exactly the same your entire career. Have you ever even had another job besides your Fed job? It doesn’t sound like it. Jobs, job situations, job duties, bosses, coworkers, and other aspects of your job are not promised and not forever. If you think you can find a different job that promises you full telework and full job security forever, you should definitely take it.

Even if it is part of the benefit package, benefits change. I’ve had employers move from pensions to 401ks, change health insurance carriers and plans, increase premiums, add transit accounts, take away long term care insurance, move to “unlimited” PTO, add telework, reduce telework, rework comp days. A federal government job is more stable than most private sector one, but nothing is guaranteed.

For decades, we’ve heard feds smugly claim how underpaid they are vis-a-vis what they could be making in the private sector, but that they endure because of their morally superior sense of duty and service. Meanwhile, we hear about the million-dollar (+) close-in homes you live in, and the more evolved vacations you take because you are better with money than we are.

I think a good part of America is struggling to understand why there is now so much panic about forks and RIFs and RTO, if you were making such a mission-driven sacrifice in the first place. Why not take one of these plentiful private sector jobs that you were oh-so-qualified for but didn’t take? Or why your dedication to public service is gone now that you have to put your kids in daycare and commute during rush hour like the rest of us?

Was it really moral superiority, or did you just have a good deal, and now that that deal is gone, you’re facing the same trade-offs that the rest of America faces?

TLDR: "I can't have flexibility so nobody can have flexibility"

In reality, it's that this crop of workers has never needed to be flexible themselves, and now they can't flex their brain to adapt to a changing environment. I highly recommend the book "Who Moved My Cheese?"

This isn’t the own you think it is. They tried to starve the mice out for sport. Seems accurate.

It was a research exercise. The ones who realized they needed to look elsewhere for the cheese were most successful. But you'd rather stand still pouting and saying how unfair it is. Starve then.

You know who else did research exercises on humans right?

Again, this isn’t the own you think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a mom who managed this problem pre covid. It's not that I want more women to be miserable. I agree that flexibility is priceless for working families and I also agree that RTO will have the largest negative impact on women and that is sad.

But I am also annoyed at how clueless and entitled some of these posts are! This is a common problem that until very recently we all dealt with. It's not a unique attack on you. You can figure it out.

I also agree with the poster who said people used to prioritize commute when buying a home. I recall making a test drive to pick my kids up and drive by our potential new home to see what that would be like before putting in an offer. We didnt put offers in to houses that had more difficult commutes. Even if we loved the space the daily reality of needing to pick up kids and get to from the office was most important.

Sorry it's changing abruptly but not sorry you can't understand that this is life.

So we should all give up are low mortgage rates and buy homes closer in (since there is an abundance of homes on the market and it the COL in DC is so reasonable). Plus uproot our kids from their schools, activities and friends. What a short sighted comment

You made a decision that fit your situation at that time. But it wasn't smart to not plan for a change in situation. The situation has changed so yes you have to pivot. A low mortgage rate on a house located inconveniently isn't a positive thing.

Ohh geese guess I should have used my
Magic 8 ball ten years ago to know this was coming…silly me to think it was smart to have a family and buy a home!

Literally this is real life! You dont need to know what the change may be but you need to anticipate that family and work obligations shift with time. Assuming what you had at time of home purchase was a life long guarantee is very short sighted. Adults understand contingency plans. It's not fun or pleasant but it is real life. If you chose to have kids you should have expected that to alter your commuting or working abilities in some ways.

Your earlier assertion was that individuals should be able to pivot on a whim, as if selling and buying a new home or relocating children is a trivial matter. You also seem to suggest that there shouldn't be any complaints about returning to the office (RTO) b/c every adult must have their entire life meticulously planned out, accounting for every possible contingency. That reality ain’t possible.

DP. We still have elementary school aged kids and made sure to keep before and after care for our kids all through COVID and beyond because we realized this RTO would potentially be a possibility. I’m sorry if you didn’t plan better. It’s not an expense that we wanted but are thankful to still have it, tens of thousands of dollars later. We bought our home knowing we each could commute to office five days a week. We have colleagues that get up at 4 am to make the in person office commute work. There’s going to be no sympathy with this administration if you’re looking for more flexibility. They want you to quit. Either embrace the change and costs or give in to their demands and quit. There’s really no middle ground.

Not all of us commuted to the office 5 days a week pre covid. Majority of federal government employees were on a hybrid schedule.

So you've been more fortunate than most for a longer time. Can you understand why the complaining isn't getting sympathy?

No actually. Part of the reason I chose to work in my agency and not in a law firm was because it allowed me to have a hybrid schedule. I wanted a job where I didn’t have to commute into DC five days a week. Same with my husband. We made our life decisions (such as the decision to have three kids) based on our work schedules. Get it?

And apparently assumed, for some bizarre reason, that it would stay exactly the same in perpetuity until retirement. Your mistake.

+1. I can’t even with this.

Why not. It’s part of the benefit package that they advertise when you get hired: healthcare, dental benefits, paid leave depending on years of service and flexible work options. We make less but have better benefits.

It’s not “part of the benefit package” that your job and responsibilities and situation will remain exactly the same your entire career. Have you ever even had another job besides your Fed job? It doesn’t sound like it. Jobs, job situations, job duties, bosses, coworkers, and other aspects of your job are not promised and not forever. If you think you can find a different job that promises you full telework and full job security forever, you should definitely take it.

Even if it is part of the benefit package, benefits change. I’ve had employers move from pensions to 401ks, change health insurance carriers and plans, increase premiums, add transit accounts, take away long term care insurance, move to “unlimited” PTO, add telework, reduce telework, rework comp days. A federal government job is more stable than most private sector one, but nothing is guaranteed.

For decades, we’ve heard feds smugly claim how underpaid they are vis-a-vis what they could be making in the private sector, but that they endure because of their morally superior sense of duty and service. Meanwhile, we hear about the million-dollar (+) close-in homes you live in, and the more evolved vacations you take because you are better with money than we are.

I think a good part of America is struggling to understand why there is now so much panic about forks and RIFs and RTO, if you were making such a mission-driven sacrifice in the first place. Why not take one of these plentiful private sector jobs that you were oh-so-qualified for but didn’t take? Or why your dedication to public service is gone now that you have to put your kids in daycare and commute during rush hour like the rest of us?

Was it really moral superiority, or did you just have a good deal, and now that that deal is gone, you’re facing the same trade-offs that the rest of America faces?

TLDR: "I can't have flexibility so nobody can have flexibility"

In reality, it's that this crop of workers has never needed to be flexible themselves, and now they can't flex their brain to adapt to a changing environment. I highly recommend the book "Who Moved My Cheese?"

This isn’t the own you think it is. They tried to starve the mice out for sport. Seems accurate.

It was a research exercise. The ones who realized they needed to look elsewhere for the cheese were most successful. But you'd rather stand still pouting and saying how unfair it is. Starve then.

You know who else did research exercises on humans right?

Again, this isn’t the own you think it is.

THE BOOK was a research exercise. You can't actually be this stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gotta do what ya gotta do.

We were spoiled with remote jobs.

But moms have been doing this for decades before.

Put your big girl pants on and learn to juggle a job and kids like the rest of us.

Your kids will get older and it gets easier. They will get more self sufficient.

Np. No moms haven’t been juggling like this. My grandmas were fired in the 50s as soon as they got pregnant. My mom and dhs mom worked part time/nights/weekends and made a lot less than they could have. Is this what society wants for women still?

Stupidly I thought I’d have more choices when I grew up. I should have chosen a major and career that would allow for part time work or had hours that fit schools. Dh and I both had flexible jobs with 1-2 days of telework that allowed both of us to be there for our kids and those are gone now.

Boomer and Genx women definitely juggled like you. Get a grip.

On the other hand, just because they juggled doesn't mean that's the standard of what we should continue to strive for. It's like brushing off the invention of the dishwasher because grandma has always hand washed dishes. Women should always be happy for technical advances that help make life easier for future women.

What's annoying is this new crop of mothers who seem so helpless and hapless. "How will I ever make this work!?" It reeks of childishness. Just like the rest of your life, you adapt.

Ah yes, another older Gen X housewares drinker who thinks the next generation doesn’t deserve better.

— young Gen X who is embarrassed by my generation’s boomer moments

Gen X had real men who were willing to support their children.

Gen Z rather play video games and raise cats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Others are managing RTO without a village just like any other parents who work in person and don’t have a village. Having kids always has been a sacrifice for most people. You just had a reprieve for a few years.

A lot of child care centers decreased their hours and enrollment during the pandemic for safety reasons and haven’t been able to staff up to increase back to pre pandemic enrollment.

Parenthood has always been difficult, but I’ll put money on this delightful remark having come from someone ignorant to the fact that there is a dwindling supply of child care.

It’s not a dwindling supply but increased cost. I’m actually sympathetic to the RTO side because it’s apparent even in my own work (private) that full time WFH does not work, but something needs to be done about the cost of childcare. I pay exactly double an hour for a nanny that I did pre-pandemic. Double! And I’m not DCUM wealthy. The people saying “suck it up” paid $16 for a nanny just 5 years and have no idea what parents are up against. And if you complain about what nannies cost (more than many nurses make) people accuse you of abusing your employees. Parents can’t win.

But that’s the problem. You don’t need a “nanny.” Private in home childcare is a premium service. If you can’t afford it, you don’t get it. You use group childcare that you can afford. Yes, it will be less convenient for you. That’s OK. Yes, it may mean your kid doesn’t do extracurriculars every day after school that require transportation. That’s OK too. Locate your adult pants, pull them up and get on with it.

Spoken like someone who is either childless or has 1 kid.

The number of kids is your choice. You need to figure it out.

I’m the PP who posted about America being individualistic to the extreme. This attitude is not normal. So wonder so many ppl in the US are miserable.

No other country will take me. You are not helping.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a mom who managed this problem pre covid. It's not that I want more women to be miserable. I agree that flexibility is priceless for working families and I also agree that RTO will have the largest negative impact on women and that is sad.

But I am also annoyed at how clueless and entitled some of these posts are! This is a common problem that until very recently we all dealt with. It's not a unique attack on you. You can figure it out.

I also agree with the poster who said people used to prioritize commute when buying a home. I recall making a test drive to pick my kids up and drive by our potential new home to see what that would be like before putting in an offer. We didnt put offers in to houses that had more difficult commutes. Even if we loved the space the daily reality of needing to pick up kids and get to from the office was most important.

Sorry it's changing abruptly but not sorry you can't understand that this is life.

So we should all give up are low mortgage rates and buy homes closer in (since there is an abundance of homes on the market and it the COL in DC is so reasonable). Plus uproot our kids from their schools, activities and friends. What a short sighted comment

You made a decision that fit your situation at that time. But it wasn't smart to not plan for a change in situation. The situation has changed so yes you have to pivot. A low mortgage rate on a house located inconveniently isn't a positive thing.

Ohh geese guess I should have used my
Magic 8 ball ten years ago to know this was coming…silly me to think it was smart to have a family and buy a home!

Literally this is real life! You dont need to know what the change may be but you need to anticipate that family and work obligations shift with time. Assuming what you had at time of home purchase was a life long guarantee is very short sighted. Adults understand contingency plans. It's not fun or pleasant but it is real life. If you chose to have kids you should have expected that to alter your commuting or working abilities in some ways.

Your earlier assertion was that individuals should be able to pivot on a whim, as if selling and buying a new home or relocating children is a trivial matter. You also seem to suggest that there shouldn't be any complaints about returning to the office (RTO) b/c every adult must have their entire life meticulously planned out, accounting for every possible contingency. That reality ain’t possible.

DP. We still have elementary school aged kids and made sure to keep before and after care for our kids all through COVID and beyond because we realized this RTO would potentially be a possibility. I’m sorry if you didn’t plan better. It’s not an expense that we wanted but are thankful to still have it, tens of thousands of dollars later. We bought our home knowing we each could commute to office five days a week. We have colleagues that get up at 4 am to make the in person office commute work. There’s going to be no sympathy with this administration if you’re looking for more flexibility. They want you to quit. Either embrace the change and costs or give in to their demands and quit. There’s really no middle ground.

Not all of us commuted to the office 5 days a week pre covid. Majority of federal government employees were on a hybrid schedule.

So you've been more fortunate than most for a longer time. Can you understand why the complaining isn't getting sympathy?

No actually. Part of the reason I chose to work in my agency and not in a law firm was because it allowed me to have a hybrid schedule. I wanted a job where I didn’t have to commute into DC five days a week. Same with my husband. We made our life decisions (such as the decision to have three kids) based on our work schedules. Get it?

And apparently assumed, for some bizarre reason, that it would stay exactly the same in perpetuity until retirement. Your mistake.

+1. I can’t even with this.

Why not. It’s part of the benefit package that they advertise when you get hired: healthcare, dental benefits, paid leave depending on years of service and flexible work options. We make less but have better benefits.

It’s not “part of the benefit package” that your job and responsibilities and situation will remain exactly the same your entire career. Have you ever even had another job besides your Fed job? It doesn’t sound like it. Jobs, job situations, job duties, bosses, coworkers, and other aspects of your job are not promised and not forever. If you think you can find a different job that promises you full telework and full job security forever, you should definitely take it.

Even if it is part of the benefit package, benefits change. I’ve had employers move from pensions to 401ks, change health insurance carriers and plans, increase premiums, add transit accounts, take away long term care insurance, move to “unlimited” PTO, add telework, reduce telework, rework comp days. A federal government job is more stable than most private sector one, but nothing is guaranteed.

For decades, we’ve heard feds smugly claim how underpaid they are vis-a-vis what they could be making in the private sector, but that they endure because of their morally superior sense of duty and service. Meanwhile, we hear about the million-dollar (+) close-in homes you live in, and the more evolved vacations you take because you are better with money than we are.

I think a good part of America is struggling to understand why there is now so much panic about forks and RIFs and RTO, if you were making such a mission-driven sacrifice in the first place. Why not take one of these plentiful private sector jobs that you were oh-so-qualified for but didn’t take? Or why your dedication to public service is gone now that you have to put your kids in daycare and commute during rush hour like the rest of us?

Was it really moral superiority, or did you just have a good deal, and now that that deal is gone, you’re facing the same trade-offs that the rest of America faces?

TLDR: "I can't have flexibility so nobody can have flexibility"

In reality, it's that this crop of workers has never needed to be flexible themselves, and now they can't flex their brain to adapt to a changing environment. I highly recommend the book "Who Moved My Cheese?"

This isn’t the own you think it is. They tried to starve the mice out for sport. Seems accurate.

It was a research exercise. The ones who realized they needed to look elsewhere for the cheese were most successful. But you'd rather stand still pouting and saying how unfair it is. Starve then.

You know who else did research exercises on humans right?

Again, this isn’t the own you think it is.

THE BOOK was a research exercise. You can't actually be this stupid.

The book is aggressively stupid. I don't think as a middle aged woman I could market myself as a charismatic corporate advice guru, but I am 100% sure I could write a less dumb book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gotta do what ya gotta do.

We were spoiled with remote jobs.

But moms have been doing this for decades before.

Put your big girl pants on and learn to juggle a job and kids like the rest of us.

Your kids will get older and it gets easier. They will get more self sufficient.

Np. No moms haven’t been juggling like this. My grandmas were fired in the 50s as soon as they got pregnant. My mom and dhs mom worked part time/nights/weekends and made a lot less than they could have. Is this what society wants for women still?

Stupidly I thought I’d have more choices when I grew up. I should have chosen a major and career that would allow for part time work or had hours that fit schools. Dh and I both had flexible jobs with 1-2 days of telework that allowed both of us to be there for our kids and those are gone now.

Boomer and Genx women definitely juggled like you. Get a grip.

On the other hand, just because they juggled doesn't mean that's the standard of what we should continue to strive for. It's like brushing off the invention of the dishwasher because grandma has always hand washed dishes. Women should always be happy for technical advances that help make life easier for future women.

What's annoying is this new crop of mothers who seem so helpless and hapless. "How will I ever make this work!?" It reeks of childishness. Just like the rest of your life, you adapt.

Ah yes, another older Gen X housewares drinker who thinks the next generation doesn’t deserve better.

— young Gen X who is embarrassed by my generation’s boomer moments

Gen X had real men who were willing to support their children.

Gen Z rather play video games and raise cats.

Actually they would rather raise dogs, not cats.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm tired of people like PPs on here who say we were "spoiled" these last few years. Bullsh*t. We were finally coming closer to having better work situations for families with two working parents. It's not spoiled. It's more practical and better for the whole family, including kids, who most people claim to care so much about.

This is a step backward. Telling people who are upset to put on their big girl panties or similar stupid BS is just ahole behavior. EVERYONE would love flexibility if offered. Of course people with kids don't want to give it up, ESPECIALLY when there is no REAL reason they are doing this in terms of quality of work. This is all to hurt the workers so they'll quit. It's backassward and cruel. Don't be a dick about it.

Of course it's a step backward, I think we can all agree on this, however, you have to deal with your current reality and we're telling you how we did it in the past.

But the past isn't now. OP is asking how people are managing in the current landscape not 3/5/10 years ago.
The landscape is not the same. And you show your rigidity- that you accuse this generation of being- when you say this is what we did before as if before synonymous to now.
It's like people who respond to questions about retirement with well I worked a job and got a pension.....ummm 🤔 great for you. Or how do you handle commutes and they respond well we bought a house 10 years ago in a shady part of DC and fixed it up so we wouldn't have commutes. Right thanks for the tip!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a mom who managed this problem pre covid. It's not that I want more women to be miserable. I agree that flexibility is priceless for working families and I also agree that RTO will have the largest negative impact on women and that is sad.

But I am also annoyed at how clueless and entitled some of these posts are! This is a common problem that until very recently we all dealt with. It's not a unique attack on you. You can figure it out.

I also agree with the poster who said people used to prioritize commute when buying a home. I recall making a test drive to pick my kids up and drive by our potential new home to see what that would be like before putting in an offer. We didnt put offers in to houses that had more difficult commutes. Even if we loved the space the daily reality of needing to pick up kids and get to from the office was most important.

Sorry it's changing abruptly but not sorry you can't understand that this is life.

So we should all give up are low mortgage rates and buy homes closer in (since there is an abundance of homes on the market and it the COL in DC is so reasonable). Plus uproot our kids from their schools, activities and friends. What a short sighted comment

You made a decision that fit your situation at that time. But it wasn't smart to not plan for a change in situation. The situation has changed so yes you have to pivot. A low mortgage rate on a house located inconveniently isn't a positive thing.

Ohh geese guess I should have used my
Magic 8 ball ten years ago to know this was coming…silly me to think it was smart to have a family and buy a home!

Literally this is real life! You dont need to know what the change may be but you need to anticipate that family and work obligations shift with time. Assuming what you had at time of home purchase was a life long guarantee is very short sighted. Adults understand contingency plans. It's not fun or pleasant but it is real life. If you chose to have kids you should have expected that to alter your commuting or working abilities in some ways.

Your earlier assertion was that individuals should be able to pivot on a whim, as if selling and buying a new home or relocating children is a trivial matter. You also seem to suggest that there shouldn't be any complaints about returning to the office (RTO) b/c every adult must have their entire life meticulously planned out, accounting for every possible contingency. That reality ain’t possible.

DP. We still have elementary school aged kids and made sure to keep before and after care for our kids all through COVID and beyond because we realized this RTO would potentially be a possibility. I’m sorry if you didn’t plan better. It’s not an expense that we wanted but are thankful to still have it, tens of thousands of dollars later. We bought our home knowing we each could commute to office five days a week. We have colleagues that get up at 4 am to make the in person office commute work. There’s going to be no sympathy with this administration if you’re looking for more flexibility. They want you to quit. Either embrace the change and costs or give in to their demands and quit. There’s really no middle ground.

Not all of us commuted to the office 5 days a week pre covid. Majority of federal government employees were on a hybrid schedule.

So you've been more fortunate than most for a longer time. Can you understand why the complaining isn't getting sympathy?

No actually. Part of the reason I chose to work in my agency and not in a law firm was because it allowed me to have a hybrid schedule. I wanted a job where I didn’t have to commute into DC five days a week. Same with my husband. We made our life decisions (such as the decision to have three kids) based on our work schedules. Get it?

And apparently assumed, for some bizarre reason, that it would stay exactly the same in perpetuity until retirement. Your mistake.

+1. I can’t even with this.

Why not. It’s part of the benefit package that they advertise when you get hired: healthcare, dental benefits, paid leave depending on years of service and flexible work options. We make less but have better benefits.

It’s not “part of the benefit package” that your job and responsibilities and situation will remain exactly the same your entire career. Have you ever even had another job besides your Fed job? It doesn’t sound like it. Jobs, job situations, job duties, bosses, coworkers, and other aspects of your job are not promised and not forever. If you think you can find a different job that promises you full telework and full job security forever, you should definitely take it.

Even if it is part of the benefit package, benefits change. I’ve had employers move from pensions to 401ks, change health insurance carriers and plans, increase premiums, add transit accounts, take away long term care insurance, move to “unlimited” PTO, add telework, reduce telework, rework comp days. A federal government job is more stable than most private sector one, but nothing is guaranteed.

For decades, we’ve heard feds smugly claim how underpaid they are vis-a-vis what they could be making in the private sector, but that they endure because of their morally superior sense of duty and service. Meanwhile, we hear about the million-dollar (+) close-in homes you live in, and the more evolved vacations you take because you are better with money than we are.

I think a good part of America is struggling to understand why there is now so much panic about forks and RIFs and RTO, if you were making such a mission-driven sacrifice in the first place. Why not take one of these plentiful private sector jobs that you were oh-so-qualified for but didn’t take? Or why your dedication to public service is gone now that you have to put your kids in daycare and commute during rush hour like the rest of us?

Was it really moral superiority, or did you just have a good deal, and now that that deal is gone, you’re facing the same trade-offs that the rest of America faces?

You're smashing together a whole bunch of different experiences and stereotypes here as though one person is saying all of them. I certainly don't have a million dollar close in home and lucrative private sector options (I work in land management, not one of the park rangers fired last week but sure do know a lot of them).

Most of my agency is already on site, not WFH, and our commutes are long because our salaries are low and it's very very hard for dual career couples to find work in the same location. We are worried about RIFs because ANYONE would be worried to be told layoffs are coming. Have some empathy.

DP here. I have empathy. It is a stressful time of uncertainty for the entire country. But it's a bit like the woman who acts like she's the first person ever to be pregnant or have a baby. Economic and job uncertainty is nothing new, even if it's "new" in the working lifetime of today's 30 year olds. It's the excessive hand-wringing and the "whatever will we do???" mentality that is hard to take. OP was completely fine - she was merely asking for tips and suggestions. Which is what she should do. It's everyone that came next that just wants to whine and stomp their feet insisting this isn't fair.

+1,000

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Anonymous wrote:^ And I’m not saying only Feds do this. I know people in remote jobs in private industry too

The funny thing is that outside of the early stage of the pandemic, I only know one person IRL that kept a baby home while working (a contractor) and even she admitted it was only possible because her mom/MIL helped out for 2-3 days per week (and once they were 18mo the kid went to daycare). I definitely know quite a few parents who dropped or scaled back on before/aftercare, some of whom are scrambling becasue some days are full. But are there really that many parents still WFH and caring for babies/toddlers fulltime? How is that even functional....

I know two couples who are both in remote IC-type roles and swap the baby back and forth in between meetings. I’m guessing they do some work at night to compensate. Not sure what their long term plans are

Um, there are very few fully remote IC roles, OP. Unless whatever you think IC means is different than what I think it means.

I suspect PP means individual contributor

DH and I did this at the height of the pandemic, we are also individual contributors. It was awful, nobody can do this if they are truly working anything resembling full time. It's true that in these types of roles there can be a lot of downtime because it's all deep work, but caring for a baby is not down time.

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Anonymous wrote:Gotta do what ya gotta do.

We were spoiled with remote jobs.

But moms have been doing this for decades before.

Put your big girl pants on and learn to juggle a job and kids like the rest of us.

Your kids will get older and it gets easier. They will get more self sufficient.

Np. No moms haven’t been juggling like this. My grandmas were fired in the 50s as soon as they got pregnant. My mom and dhs mom worked part time/nights/weekends and made a lot less than they could have. Is this what society wants for women still?

Stupidly I thought I’d have more choices when I grew up. I should have chosen a major and career that would allow for part time work or had hours that fit schools. Dh and I both had flexible jobs with 1-2 days of telework that allowed both of us to be there for our kids and those are gone now.

Boomer and Genx women definitely juggled like you. Get a grip.

On the other hand, just because they juggled doesn't mean that's the standard of what we should continue to strive for. It's like brushing off the invention of the dishwasher because grandma has always hand washed dishes. Women should always be happy for technical advances that help make life easier for future women.

What's annoying is this new crop of mothers who seem so helpless and hapless. "How will I ever make this work!?" It reeks of childishness. Just like the rest of your life, you adapt.

Ah yes, another older Gen X housewares drinker who thinks the next generation doesn’t deserve better.

— young Gen X who is embarrassed by my generation’s boomer moments

Gen X had real men who were willing to support their children.

Gen Z rather play video games and raise cats.

I know plenty of great Gen Z fathers. Don't marry the video game lazy types, obviously.

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Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.

I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.

Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?

Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.

Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.

I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.

I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.

No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.

I'm not for the "through it" approach- my DC is grown now, but I have no interest in seeing families crushed under the weight of childcare costs, student loans, and zero work flexibility. I went "through it" and I would like to believe that we can do better for families.

Having parents of young children work and care for children at the same time is not "better for families", and not all jobs can or should be remote. I honestly kind of hate my WFH days and am starting to go into the office more often. What would be better for families is more funding for early childhood care and education and paid family leave.

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Anonymous wrote:So much drama about family values and this country provides zero supports to working parents, as a society we are cruel, individualistic and mean. No wonder we have mentally fu*ked up kids blowing up other kids in schools. This talk of the greatest, wealthiest nation is just bs, wealth and benefits only for the billionaire class, the rest can spend their lives in servitude to the rich.

I don’t see where this is coming from. I grew up a “latch key” kid (remember when that was a thing) and my kids were in daycare while DH and I were in the office full time.

Is the implication that daycare is causing school shootings?

Maybe having parents around all the time is causing the anxiety and depression spikes in kids.

Please go into the general parenting forum and express that kids should be removed from their parents for more hours of the day in order to prevent anxiety and depression and school shootings.

I’m not suggesting that should happen. I’m pointing out correlation does not equal causation. RTO will not increase school shootings. Before and after care will probably have no impact on anxiety/depression in kids.

I’m suggesting you should see the reaction from parents to suggesting that. Particularly if you identify yourself as a mother.

No one loves these years when you feel squeezed beyond belief- financially, physically, emotionally. I am a mother who has been through this stage and it was hard. We paid $40k a year for daycare. I’m sure it’s more now. And then we paid for aftercare. You and others will go through this stage and it will be hard. There is no way around it but through it.

I'm not for the "through it" approach- my DC is grown now, but I have no interest in seeing families crushed under the weight of childcare costs, student loans, and zero work flexibility. I went "through it" and I would like to believe that we can do better for families.

Having parents of young children work and care for children at the same time is not "better for families", and not all jobs can or should be remote. I honestly kind of hate my WFH days and am starting to go into the office more often. What would be better for families is more funding for early childhood care and education and paid family leave.

And those of us who already raised our kids can pay for it? Uh, no thanks.

[Anonymous]

We pay for pre-care and after-care. It’s wonderful to know that it is there as we need it. If we come home early one day, then just pick the DC up. It’s an expense that gives peace of mind. I don’t want to keep hiring Nannie’s and teens for an hour here or there. I don’t want to keep searching on care.com. We just sucked up and paid for the given spot.

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Anonymous wrote:I am a mom who managed this problem pre covid. It's not that I want more women to be miserable. I agree that flexibility is priceless for working families and I also agree that RTO will have the largest negative impact on women and that is sad.

But I am also annoyed at how clueless and entitled some of these posts are! This is a common problem that until very recently we all dealt with. It's not a unique attack on you. You can figure it out.

I also agree with the poster who said people used to prioritize commute when buying a home. I recall making a test drive to pick my kids up and drive by our potential new home to see what that would be like before putting in an offer. We didnt put offers in to houses that had more difficult commutes. Even if we loved the space the daily reality of needing to pick up kids and get to from the office was most important.

Sorry it's changing abruptly but not sorry you can't understand that this is life.

So we should all give up are low mortgage rates and buy homes closer in (since there is an abundance of homes on the market and it the COL in DC is so reasonable). Plus uproot our kids from their schools, activities and friends. What a short sighted comment

You made a decision that fit your situation at that time. But it wasn't smart to not plan for a change in situation. The situation has changed so yes you have to pivot. A low mortgage rate on a house located inconveniently isn't a positive thing.

Ohh geese guess I should have used my
Magic 8 ball ten years ago to know this was coming…silly me to think it was smart to have a family and buy a home!

Literally this is real life! You dont need to know what the change may be but you need to anticipate that family and work obligations shift with time. Assuming what you had at time of home purchase was a life long guarantee is very short sighted. Adults understand contingency plans. It's not fun or pleasant but it is real life. If you chose to have kids you should have expected that to alter your commuting or working abilities in some ways.

Your earlier assertion was that individuals should be able to pivot on a whim, as if selling and buying a new home or relocating children is a trivial matter. You also seem to suggest that there shouldn't be any complaints about returning to the office (RTO) b/c every adult must have their entire life meticulously planned out, accounting for every possible contingency. That reality ain’t possible.

DP. We still have elementary school aged kids and made sure to keep before and after care for our kids all through COVID and beyond because we realized this RTO would potentially be a possibility. I’m sorry if you didn’t plan better. It’s not an expense that we wanted but are thankful to still have it, tens of thousands of dollars later. We bought our home knowing we each could commute to office five days a week. We have colleagues that get up at 4 am to make the in person office commute work. There’s going to be no sympathy with this administration if you’re looking for more flexibility. They want you to quit. Either embrace the change and costs or give in to their demands and quit. There’s really no middle ground.

Not all of us commuted to the office 5 days a week pre covid. Majority of federal government employees were on a hybrid schedule.

So you've been more fortunate than most for a longer time. Can you understand why the complaining isn't getting sympathy?

No actually. Part of the reason I chose to work in my agency and not in a law firm was because it allowed me to have a hybrid schedule. I wanted a job where I didn’t have to commute into DC five days a week. Same with my husband. We made our life decisions (such as the decision to have three kids) based on our work schedules. Get it?

And apparently assumed, for some bizarre reason, that it would stay exactly the same in perpetuity until retirement. Your mistake.

+1. I can’t even with this.

Why not. It’s part of the benefit package that they advertise when you get hired: healthcare, dental benefits, paid leave depending on years of service and flexible work options. We make less but have better benefits.

It’s not “part of the benefit package” that your job and responsibilities and situation will remain exactly the same your entire career. Have you ever even had another job besides your Fed job? It doesn’t sound like it. Jobs, job situations, job duties, bosses, coworkers, and other aspects of your job are not promised and not forever. If you think you can find a different job that promises you full telework and full job security forever, you should definitely take it.

Even if it is part of the benefit package, benefits change. I’ve had employers move from pensions to 401ks, change health insurance carriers and plans, increase premiums, add transit accounts, take away long term care insurance, move to “unlimited” PTO, add telework, reduce telework, rework comp days. A federal government job is more stable than most private sector one, but nothing is guaranteed.

For decades, we’ve heard feds smugly claim how underpaid they are vis-a-vis what they could be making in the private sector, but that they endure because of their morally superior sense of duty and service. Meanwhile, we hear about the million-dollar (+) close-in homes you live in, and the more evolved vacations you take because you are better with money than we are.

I think a good part of America is struggling to understand why there is now so much panic about forks and RIFs and RTO, if you were making such a mission-driven sacrifice in the first place. Why not take one of these plentiful private sector jobs that you were oh-so-qualified for but didn’t take? Or why your dedication to public service is gone now that you have to put your kids in daycare and commute during rush hour like the rest of us?

Was it really moral superiority, or did you just have a good deal, and now that that deal is gone, you’re facing the same trade-offs that the rest of America faces?

You're smashing together a whole bunch of different experiences and stereotypes here as though one person is saying all of them. I certainly don't have a million dollar close in home and lucrative private sector options (I work in land management, not one of the park rangers fired last week but sure do know a lot of them).

Most of my agency is already on site, not WFH, and our commutes are long because our salaries are low and it's very very hard for dual career couples to find work in the same location. We are worried about RIFs because ANYONE would be worried to be told layoffs are coming. Have some empathy.

DP here. I have empathy. It is a stressful time of uncertainty for the entire country. But it's a bit like the woman who acts like she's the first person ever to be pregnant or have a baby. Economic and job uncertainty is nothing new, even if it's "new" in the working lifetime of today's 30 year olds. It's the excessive hand-wringing and the "whatever will we do???" mentality that is hard to take. OP was completely fine - she was merely asking for tips and suggestions. Which is what she should do. It's everyone that came next that just wants to whine and stomp their feet insisting this isn't fair.

+1,000

-1,000. Neither of you have empathy. And it ISN'T fair. But it could be. Because it was. And it was working for the agencies and for the employee. Those of you who don't get that and don't care are little more than corporate slaves. Advocate for something better instead of accepting the status quo and bashing others who want what they were promised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I got my citizenship recently and grew up abroad. I find this entire thread fascinating. America is such an individualistic country, I don’t think I’ve seen this anywhere else. There seems to be a notion that because having kids is an individual choice, they also are that individual’s burden and they are expected to carry that burden alone with absolutely no help from society. Yet having kids is a societal good and an aging population is dangerous for society especially now with ppl living longer. Who is supposed to look after you when you are older though? I’m not talking about individual arrangements. I’m talking about the nurses, the doctors, medical staff etc. Who builds the roads, houses, and infrastructure? Provides goods and services? Pays into social security? U know all the things needed for society to function? These are other people’s children. So there needs to be a way to figure out how to make work compatible with having families. Sure many of you can hire care but who looks after the family of the person you hire? Do they have affordable childcare? If we want to remain functional as a society we need to stop thinking in such an individualistic manner. Back home, the village literally raises the child. What’s America’s solution?

American's emphasis on rugged individualism and work above all has always been incompatible with two working parent families. These GOP a-holes want women out of the workplace. Making life harder for two working parent families is the goal here.

There is no reason for this RTO. There is no support for any claims that work from home decreases efficiency or quality of work. It was a huge step forward and they want to take us back to the stone age simply to make federal workers quit.

They are barbaric and don't really care about the quality of work or families or anything other than lining their own pockets. They want no oversight of their nefarious activities. That's really all this is.