AEM post/discussion re racism and choice schools

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

I LOVE the idea to have all the secondary schools be choice countywide. Let's start with the high schools, then move to middle schools. Not sure people would want to give up their neighborhood elem schools, but even desegregating secondary would be a huge win.

MORE choice, not less is the solution. Sorry JF!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.

I actually think it would be easier. Have a hub and spoke transportation model. One bus picks up all the kids in a neighborhood, brings them to a central bus depot and then buses go from there to all the choice programs.

What about utilizing and enhancing our excellent ART, Metrobus, and Metrorail systems instead of complex school bus schemes? Students in DC are expected to use public transport.

[Anonymous]

Hey people this post was so active that it was featured in Jeff's blog the other day. lol.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.

I actually think it would be easier. Have a hub and spoke transportation model. One bus picks up all the kids in a neighborhood, brings them to a central bus depot and then buses go from there to all the choice programs.

That's a bonkers idea. There's no way that's easier than what exists now, with most kids walking and kids at option schools using hub stops. You want the majority of kids in Arlington to pass through some non-existent central bus depot? That sounds like utter chaos.

[Anonymous]

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

This person is absurd. All you have to do when looking at this conversation is compare prices in the north and south sides of Arlington Forest. Its the exact same track house, same age of house, same lot size, same proximity to Rt. 50 and proximity to walking trails. North Arlington Forest houses go for 100K to 200K more than their equivalent south of 50. There is a reason that the North neighborhood went batshit insane when they were trying to redistrict them to Wakefield.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

I really like your countywide high school / middle school proposal. Students could also rank their choices. Same for the elementary school clusters you propose—Excellent and well thought out. (That was actually successfully implemented by APS for the former Jamestown, ASFS, Key Immersion, Taylor cluster.) I hope that discussion takes place higher up in APS and that it is implemented countrywide.

But your historical analysis that focuses on supposed injustices foisted on Arlington south of rt 50 is wrong. Yes, individual neighborhoods and commercial areas were segregated by design, but that has nothing do to with Arlington north of Rt 50 or south of it. School segregation by law prior to 1959, and during court ordered desegregation through the 80s, also had nothing to do with a school’s geographic location south or north of Rt 50. (You left out Langston ES. And I need to correct you about Gunston. That was a segregated white junior high school along with TJ, Stratford, Swanson, Dolly Madison, etc.)

The Metro redevelopment at Pentagon and Crystal cities also preserved single family home / low density neighborhoods so the “smart growth” policies were not limited to N Arlington. There are/were plenty of garden apartments from Parkington/Ballston to Rosslyn prior to Metro constuction. Many of those were lost to redevelopment, like Pollard Gardens, but many others still remain like Buckingham and Colonial Village. That same redevelopment would have happened along Columbia Pike in the 80s as well if a Metro line was constructed as proposed. The stub tunnel still exists at the Pentagon Station. The lack of funding for mass transit projects during the Regan era likely ended that. I do think Columbia Pike could use a subway today. Doesn’t it have the busiest bus line in the Commonwealth?

In sum there were a series of events from the 70s onward that prioritized redevelopment around the Orange Line corridor while Columbia Pike languished, but that was not by design. Lee Highway / Langston Blvd also languished, hence the plans to redevelop it with high density affordable housing.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the "north" or "south" postal designation per se, no one is saying that, it just happens that those also correlate with the school boundaries. High View Park is in north Arlington and Glebe used to be the most integrated of the north Arlington schools and the area around it had the lowest SFH prices. You know what other schools people used to avoid? Barrett in 22203, which was majority Hispanic until Buckingham got redeveloped (again---WWII era garden apartments), Key (which they ended up using for a countywide program because it was surrounded by apartments), and TJMS (which was majority-minority even though it pulled in a lot of kids from Ashton Heights and Lyon Park and under capacity for a long time when WMS and SMS were bursting at the seams).

Between 2005-2015 there was an enormous run-up in SFH prices in north Arlington at the same time there was tremendous overcrowding in the same schools, while prices in south Arlington did not increase at the same time, there was not a comparable increase in development/redevelopment (until recently) and the schools were often under capacity. Why did people pay hundreds of dollars more for housing just to send their kids to schools where they would be in trailers and have to eat lunch at 10:00 am?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

I really like your countywide high school / middle school proposal. Students could also rank their choices. Same for the elementary school clusters you propose—Excellent and well thought out. (That was actually successfully implemented by APS for the former Jamestown, ASFS, Key Immersion, Taylor cluster.) I hope that discussion takes place higher up in APS and that it is implemented countrywide.

But your historical analysis that focuses on supposed injustices foisted on Arlington south of rt 50 is wrong. Yes, individual neighborhoods and commercial areas were segregated by design, but that has nothing do to with Arlington north of Rt 50 or south of it. School segregation by law prior to 1959, and during court ordered desegregation through the 80s, also had nothing to do with a school’s geographic location south or north of Rt 50. (You left out Langston ES. And I need to correct you about Gunston. That was a segregated white junior high school along with TJ, Stratford, Swanson, Dolly Madison, etc.)

The Metro redevelopment at Pentagon and Crystal cities also preserved single family home / low density neighborhoods so the “smart growth” policies were not limited to N Arlington. There are/were plenty of garden apartments from Parkington/Ballston to Rosslyn prior to Metro constuction. Many of those were lost to redevelopment, like Pollard Gardens, but many others still remain like Buckingham and Colonial Village. That same redevelopment would have happened along Columbia Pike in the 80s as well if a Metro line was constructed as proposed. The stub tunnel still exists at the Pentagon Station. The lack of funding for mass transit projects during the Regan era likely ended that. I do think Columbia Pike could use a subway today. Doesn’t it have the busiest bus line in the Commonwealth?

In sum there were a series of events from the 70s onward that prioritized redevelopment around the Orange Line corridor while Columbia Pike languished, but that was not by design. Lee Highway / Langston Blvd also languished, hence the plans to redevelop it with high density affordable housing.

Yes, it has nothing to do with the "north" or "south" postal designation per se, no one is saying that, it just happens that those also correlate with the school boundaries. High View Park is in north Arlington and Glebe used to be the most integrated of the north Arlington schools and the area around it had the lowest SFH prices. You know what other schools people used to avoid? Barrett in 22203, which was majority Hispanic until Buckingham got redeveloped (again---WWII era garden apartments), Key (which they ended up using for a countywide program because it was surrounded by apartments), and TJMS (which was majority-minority even though it pulled in a lot of kids from Ashton Heights and Lyon Park and under capacity for a long time when WMS and SMS were bursting at the seams).

Between 2005-2015 there was an enormous run-up in SFH prices in north Arlington at the same time there was tremendous overcrowding in the same schools, while prices in south Arlington did not increase at the same time, there was not a comparable increase in development/redevelopment (until recently) and the schools were often under capacity. Why did people pay hundreds of dollars more for housing just to send their kids to schools where they would be in trailers and have to eat lunch at 10:00 am?

hundreds of thousands of dollars more

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

This person is absurd. All you have to do when looking at this conversation is compare prices in the north and south sides of Arlington Forest. Its the exact same track house, same age of house, same lot size, same proximity to Rt. 50 and proximity to walking trails. North Arlington Forest houses go for 100K to 200K more than their equivalent south of 50. There is a reason that the North neighborhood went batshit insane when they were trying to redistrict them to Wakefield.

I thought it was all about walkability for the outspoken group against the move to Wakefield? Didn’t some northside forest families want to move to Wakefield? I don’t recall any mention of housing prices, although I’m not saying you’re wrong.

Anyways APS caved at the last minute and kept Maywood, parts of Cherrydale, Bluemont, Lacey Woods, and Tara at W-L, instead of moving them to Yorktown along with the others, due to the whole walkability argument. And of course, Arlington Forest (northside) was supposed to move to Wakefield, but those parents also claimed walkability to W-L and APS caved.

So who knows. I’m not from any of the above neighborhoods, but that’s what I remember. And currently APS prioritizes walkability and proximity above all else. Isn’t that why Nottingham was kept open?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Not everyone would get into their first option. Schools still have "x" capacity and they would balance enrollment among those schools. Another benefit. However, while there could potentially be some balancing out of diversity in the north, the disparities with the south would still be stark. You can't make a quadrant any more diverse than the students in the quadrant - just like you can't make a neighborhood school more diverse than the neighborhoods it serves. And this county is still segregated by quadrants.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.

1. Transportation is the easy default excuse. Tired of it.
2. Transportation currently is challenged and the adherence to neighborhood boundaries may even contribute to that since so many neighborhood schools are so close to each other.

[Anonymous]

It would be really interesting to see the transfer number for this year. How many and which kids from Jefferson applied to transfer to Williamsburg or Hamm? How many applied to transfer from Wakefield to WL or Yorktown? Those were all prioritized transfers. If the answer is that diverse students don't apply because they don't want to commute across the county, then more lottery schools isn't going to change things.

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.

1. Transportation is the easy default excuse. Tired of it.
2. Transportation currently is challenged and the adherence to neighborhood boundaries may even contribute to that since so many neighborhood schools are so close to each other.

It's not an excuse, but reality. Explain how a county-wide lottery would work where APS is required to provide transportation?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:^^
Many of us moved to DMV from other states and we bought in NA because we work in DC and want to be near the Orange line and bus lines that take us directly to the stations, or close-by parking. When I was looking, I was told by coworkers and realtors that all Arlington schools are very good, so we looked all over the county.

And what's the big deal if "white" people want to spend extra to live in NA if they can afford it and want a more green, suburban setting?! Why are so many in Arlington so race-obsessed?

Look at the last 25 pages for the answer.

NA schools have more kids from MC housing secure families, have less teacher turnover and better funded PTAs that can pay for field trips and other extras + kids who show up for school.

SA schools don’t have most of these things.

Options are like NA schools but more racially and economically diverse.

+1. But APS pretends like they’re all the same.

An APS staffer said they don’t compare school performance among schools. Seems like they should to see what’s working. It doesn’t all come down to demographics. There are some title 1 neighborhood schools outperforming others by a large degree. Strong leadership and teachers make a difference.

Incorrect. They compare school performance.

Ask anyone on the South Arlington working group of 2016. They had slides and graphs. They even separated the Montessori program from Drew to illuminate that the Montessori program was what was elevating the numbers.

I never quite understood why Montessori had to get moved out of Drew. Now Drew is underenrolled and the Montessori people don't like their building and want a new home. Why can't they just go back to Drew? problem solved!

The class times don't align, the pedagogies are actually different, you need an administrator who knows Montessori well, and it was a disservice to the neighborhood program. Montessori's (and its PTA) contributions to the neighborhood program were minimal. Moving them out gave APS the chance to boost Drew - but the community pushed back hard and APS caved, ultimately making it more impoverished than the 60% their boundary recommendation made it. The only thing housing Montessori in there did was hide the utterly shameful performance of the neighborhood program.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

I don't remember Tara N pushing for this at all. She just wanted kids on tech in early grades.

She absolutely did. It was her pathways proposal. It was a step toward moving the community into greater acceptance of a choice system and fostering steps toward more balanced diversity across schools. I didn't care for her "personalized learning" and 1:1 tech program; but liked the rest of what she had to say. She was willing to think more boldly and to push change. Exactly what our APS leadership is supposed to do.

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Anonymous wrote:As a minority of middle eastern origin I find it extremely offensive that schools such as Carlin Springs is considered more diverse than ATS, where my kids go. The only way Carlin Springs is more diverse than ATS is if you lump all non-white students together. It is extremely racist to believe that all non-white students are the same and that the only diversity that matters is white vs. non-white. Ethnically speaking, a white person is just as different from a person of Middle Eastern origin than a hispanic person is. Carlin Springs isn't diverse. It is 73% hispanic. This means that three quarters of the school is from one race/ethnicity. How on earth is that diverse? Arlington Traditional School is more equally divided between different races and 9% of the school is from multiple races. The Black population, 20%, is diverse in and of itself. We have Ethiopians, African Americans, Eritrians, and Nigerians, just to name a few. Same with the 27% of Asian students who come from all over the vast continent of Asia. We have students with origins from Azerbeijan, Mongolia, China, India, Pakistan, Kazakhestan. I mean the list goes on. 24 different languages are spoken at ATS. How many different languages are spoken in Carlin Springs? I am really sick and tired of this narrow definition of diversity. It is a racist definition given to us by white people who think that we are all the same. Disgusting.

Everything this person said. Plus 1000.

I also think there are white people in positions of power who claim this is "diversity" so that they can maintain the racist status quo.

This whole convo is racist, the people driving it are white people who couldn't afford N Arlington so their kids are in S Arlington schools with (gasp!) majority black/brown. They would feel a lot more comfortable if there were more white kids to keep their white kids company. So their solutionis to kill the option schools to get more of their white neighbors to stay in the neighborhood schools. That's all it is, they claim to be social justice warriors but it's racist and self interested. What really gets me is they attack others for their ethics.

The ethics of doing anything you can to buy a house in north Arlington specifically to avoid the south Arlington schools? Those ethics? The ones that aren't so obvious and can be shaded over with claims of "commute, walkability, didn't want a fixer-upper" etc? Those ethics?

SA resident here, and I think it’s ridiculous to say that NA residents bought their homes *specifically* to avoid SA schools. There are many things about NA neighborhoods that are appealing.

And it totally ignores the fact that many CHILDLESS couples buy homes in NA.

You, my friend, are reaching. And kinda dumb.

The price differences are massive, though--hundreds of thousands of dollars--for houses that are similar in size, age, lot, condition, etc--whether you are talking about old stock or brand new builds. The locations are not that different in terms of proximity to metro, highways, DC or Fairfax, etc. What is different? Neighborhood/school demographics.

22204 -- 4 bed, 4 bath, 5,000 sq ft house, 2 car garage, 8000 sq ft lot, nice SFH neighborhood close to 395 and Pentagon City metro (Douglas Park), $1.3M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3505A-16th-St-S_Arlington_VA_22204_M91441-13462?from=srp-list-card

in 22207, similar houses are $1.8M
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2115-Military-Rd_Arlington_VA_22207_M60569-95271?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/5205-27th-Rd-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M66375-43352?from=srp-list-card

$2.0M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/2254-N-Columbus-St_Arlington_VA_22207_M67625-96482?from=srp-list-card

$2.3M https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6207-29th-St-N_Arlington_VA_22207_M54395-94810?from=srp-list-card

The 1.3 mil Douglass Park house is relatively old. Here’s a pretty house in 22201 for quite a bit less within walking distance to the Apple Store. And it has nothing to do with school demographics.

https://www.homes.com/property/724-n-cleveland-st-arlington-va/j119e7w41rrhw/

Also, you have to factor in how densely populated the surrounding area is. Parks (and schools) located in areas with tons of high rises are going to offer a different experience than parks (and schools) where everyone is more spread out.

Sometimes it’s not the color of everyone’s skin, but sheer number of bodies.

Nothing like the Aurora Hills splash pad being like a most pit in the summer because it’s super crowded!

Huh? No. It’s the schools. That’s why realtors steer, that’s why real estate sites include school scores prominently, and it’s why agents are sure to talk about NORTH Arlington, as if it’s a separate place from the rest of Arlington. It is a separate place, by design.

I thought N Arlington was created back when it was mostly all farms. The post office wanted the county to come up with a street naming system, hence the N and the S. So it has nothing to do with “rich vs poor.”

I think other factors are at play that determine house prices: quality of the build, historic charm, tree canopy, Metro rail, cute shops and cafes (like in Westover), the reputation of the neighborhood, i.e., is it posh. None of those have to do with schools. Arlington Ridge is quite posh and along the southern edge of S Arlington.

Rt 50 is more of a psychological distractor. I personally would like Buttigieg to direct some of his freeway removal funds to eliminating Rt 50. It’s unnecessary and it divides neighborhoods.

What are you even talking about? Sure, being “posh” has nothing to do with poor people being kept out of that “posh” area. And when poor people are largely minority, again, by design, through a system of racist housing and bank lending policies, it’s really about tree canopy. WTF

The SFH neighborhoods in Arlington, N and S, if you get off the main roads, are really lovely. They have comparable parks and trees, too. It’s the higher density areas, more common in S, that have lower tree canopy. But if you compare apples to apples where house age, size, repair, etc. are similar, there’s still a premium for houses in areas with “good schools.” So, maybe people are trying to be in leafier “posher” areas for that, but it’s all part of the same system. It was designed and it operates the way it was intended.

The comment was in response to N Arlington being “a separate place by design” as claimed by the previous poster, which is not true.

I personally don’t see how schools affect housing prices in such a small county where people move for its charming, family-friendly neighborhoods and convenience. But families here do love their walkable neighborhood schools. I’m no realtor so I’ll give you some benefit of the doubt regarding the schools’ affect on home prices in Arlington.

Since there are neighborhood transfers and option programs through high school, APS students have multiple pathways. Kind of like DC with all its top-notch charter schools where I don’t think a house in the J-R/Wilson pyramid sells at a premium over a large rowhouse on Capitol Hill because of the assigned schools.

WTF--north Arlington is absolutely a separate place by design. THE SCHOOLS AND NEIGHBORHOODS WERE LEGALLY SEGREGATED. Halls Hill and Nauck/Green Valley were the only places where black people could own property. Lots in those neighborhood are very small because they have been subdivided many times to the minimum lot size because it was the only way black people could buy. The schools serving those neighborhoods (Drew, Hoffman-Boston, Gunston) were the original segregated schools and until recently were still majority black.

Similarly, the neighborhoods closer to the Pentagon--along Columbia Pike, on the south side of Route 50, Fairlington, etc.--were all built as apartments in the 1930s and 1940s as high density housing for the war effort and then for the returning soldiers/early Boomer generation. That is all older/affordable condos (not usually families) or low-income rentals now (for low-income families) and is not going to change. The zoning decisions for the high-density Metro corridors was made in the 1970s and at that time explicit decisions were made about what would be high-density, medium-density, and low-density to preserve SFH neighborhoods just a few blocks from the Metro (see--Lyon Park, Lyon Village, Bluemont, Westover, etc.) around the orange line versus the decisions made about the neighborhoods around the Yellow/Blue line and Crystal City/Pentagon City.

STFU about the differences in north Arlington/south Arlington not being by design. As people keep saying, it is the continuing effect of racist and segregationist housing, school, and zoning policies. The school policies could be undone by making the three high schools, at least, all countywide through some system, and maybe the five middle schools, and by greatly expanding the elementary boundaries to have four or five grouped choice zones with a traditional/Montessori/immersion/science focus/arts focus/outdoor focus cluster in each quaarant of the county. Or some other model that would loosen the tight hold that the traditional boundaries have on APS.

Oooo! Dangerous territory here. This is what ended Tara Nattrass' relationship with APS!

If you put those options in each quadrant you’ll have waaaay less diversity. For example, all the white/higher income N Arlington kids who go to Gunston & Wakefield for immersion will just go to the immersion school closer to home. Without cross county movement to option programs, segregation is much more pronounced.

Transportation also becomes a major problem. APS struggles with transportation now even when trying to keep kids walkable. I don't know how they'd manage any option where they'd have to move more kids.

I actually think it would be easier. Have a hub and spoke transportation model. One bus picks up all the kids in a neighborhood, brings them to a central bus depot and then buses go from there to all the choice programs.

A) what a logistical nightmare with having kids change buses.

B) It is unreasonable to expect kids and families take on the brunt of fixing disparities by having longer commutes/potentially going to school farther from home and away from neighborhood friends. The underlying issue is about housing policy. Fix housing and messing with the school boundaries will be moot.

My kids go to a neighborhood school and their social circle of friends and sports teammates is made up of kids that live mostly within walking/biking distance of our home. Having a support system of families close by to rely on for carpools, emergency contacts, after school play dates, etc. is invaluable. And it’s not just NA families who benefit from this. Many families in SA do not want to have to trek cross county to pick up a sick kid or attend a PTA event. Play dates are more complicated when your kid has friends all over the county (this is one thing I really disliked about private school as a kid and why I wanted my kids at a neighborhood school).

Stop making it the schools’ responsibility to retroactively address historical racism. Push for more affordable housing options during Plan Langston.