Why are people more sympathetic to Lindsay Clancy than Andrea Yates? (Child death mentioned)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

Cite where in your link it says PPP appears several months after birth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

Also, you *do* understand that the word ‘usually’ does not encompass all cases? Duh.

Andrea Yates gave birth to her last baby late November 2000 and didn’t become floridly psychotic until months afterward, ultimately killing her children in July 2001. Yes she had previously suffered PPD and PPP, but there are many other cases of women who developed psychosis months after childbirth. It is not limited the weeks after childbirth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

Also, you *do* understand that the word ‘usually’ does not encompass all cases? Duh.

Andrea Yates gave birth to her last baby late November 2000 and didn’t become floridly psychotic until months afterward, ultimately killing her children in July 2001. Yes she had previously suffered PPD and PPP, but there are many other cases of women who developed psychosis months after childbirth. It is not limited the weeks after childbirth.

Should be easy for you to provide supporting medical references, prosecutor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

Not PP but you are saying something completely different from the Mayo Clinic page you posted. That says postpartum psychosis usually develops within a week after delivery. So this months long period of PPD then psychosis doesn’t seem so textbook.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

Not PP but you are saying something completely different from the Mayo Clinic page you posted. That says postpartum psychosis usually develops within a week after delivery. So this months long period of PPD then psychosis doesn’t seem so textbook.

+1

I am the profoundly ignorant poster who read reputable sources. I’m sure this prosecutor is very effective given a lack of evidence provided and verbally insulting people. Quite the communicator you are.

[Anonymous]

I think because she had knowledge and experience as a L&D nurse, in a fit of rage she killed her kids mistakenly believing it would be blamed on PPP. Oh she definitely had something major going on, severe anxiety/depression but not quite sure she would be diagnosed as psychotic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

Not PP but you are saying something completely different from the Mayo Clinic page you posted. That says postpartum psychosis usually develops within a week after delivery. So this months long period of PPD then psychosis doesn’t seem so textbook.

+1

I am the profoundly ignorant poster who read reputable sources. I’m sure this prosecutor is very effective given a lack of evidence provided and verbally insulting people. Quite the communicator you are.

Unlikely that poster is a prosecutor. Anyone can be anyone here.
-Astronaut

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

Also, you *do* understand that the word ‘usually’ does not encompass all cases? Duh.

Andrea Yates gave birth to her last baby late November 2000 and didn’t become floridly psychotic until months afterward, ultimately killing her children in July 2001. Yes she had previously suffered PPD and PPP, but there are many other cases of women who developed psychosis months after childbirth. It is not limited the weeks after childbirth.

“Duh?” Oh, you’re 12. That’s explains everything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have to say that whilst I almost never wish ill on others, there are some posters commenting in this thread who are so absent compassion that I almost wish they would wake up in a few years to a teenager with a diagnosis of schizophrenia so they could spend the next several decades learning what psychotic disorder can do to the brain of a person they love. Or would they still love them?

How kind. I have mental illness in my family, possibly even my child, and I try my best to get them the help they need. My mentally ill family members are men though, so no one seems to give a crap. It’s a lifelong struggle for them.

^that being said, I don’t think we can excuse and blame mental illness on Lindsay Clancy waiting until her husband left to commit murder. My mentally ill family members have no inhibitions and that’s what’s so difficult, they do embarrassing and wildly inappropriate things in front of anyone, anywhere. They don’t wait until they are alone.

Do you feel better having gotten out your rapid string of 7 low effort posts first thing in the morning? With a dose of “what about the mennnnnnn” in there too?

A few of those posts were mine and I’m not the quoted PP. You fail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread and the comments in it is bringing to mind the case of that poor kid in Florida who descended into psychosis while his parents tried to ‘tough love’ his symptoms into nonexistence. He became floridly psychotic and murdered two innocent bystanders while he walked down the street one night. There is no real question as to his insanity at the time of the attack, but not ten minutes earlier he was totally lucid in conversation with his father at dinner. Psychosis is unpredictable and in some ways inexplicable.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/11/30/florida-man-insane-killed-couple-not-guilty-ate-face/10803097002/

But here’s the issue with this. If we can’t ever predict when it’s going to occur, then these people can never be free again because we never know if or when they could snap into psychosis again. We can’t rely on experts to say they are safe, because clearly the experts thought Lindsay was.

EXACTLY. If you can meet the (very, very stringent, specific and somewhat subjective) legal criteria for insanity and you kill your kids, you should be held in a locked mental facility for the rest of your life. If you can’t, you should be held in prison for the rest of your life. Simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

Nikolas Cruz most likely has fetal alcohol syndrome, but we have zero sympathy towards him.

There was enough sympathy for him, for that reason, to keep him from getting executed, so more than zero.

OK, well, let’s give her the same level of consideration he was given.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

Cool. Well, she can process it until she’s 80 behind some manner of locked door,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m so saddened and shocked by the ignorance and cruelty in this thread. To those of you saying lock “them” up, know that there’s every possibility one of your DCs will have a mental illness at some point. Start being empathetic now.

I have a sibling, whom I love dearly, with severe mental illness, which lives with my parents in their 40s. If they killed three people, they should be locked up. Start being empathetic for those babies now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it doesn’t fit the narrative that we must express sympathy and understanding for this killer unlike other mentally ill killers.

But she’s white! And young! And reasonably attractive! And active on social media! Of course she should walk free.

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Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

Also, you *do* understand that the word ‘usually’ does not encompass all cases? Duh.

Andrea Yates gave birth to her last baby late November 2000 and didn’t become floridly psychotic until months afterward, ultimately killing her children in July 2001. Yes she had previously suffered PPD and PPP, but there are many other cases of women who developed psychosis months after childbirth. It is not limited the weeks after childbirth.

Andrea Yates had her first hallucination involving stabbing shortly after she had her first child. She had several disorders including schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and was told not to have more children but her abusive husband insisted. She was psychotic the whole time. These situations hardly seem comparable.