Why are people more sympathetic to Lindsay Clancy than Andrea Yates? (Child death mentioned)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m so saddened and shocked by the ignorance and cruelty in this thread. To those of you saying lock “them” up, know that there’s every possibility one of your DCs will have a mental illness at some point. Start being empathetic now.

Several of my family members (sister, first cousin, two second cousins) suffer from mental illness. If any of them killed people I would feel a prison sentence is deserved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it doesn’t fit the narrative that we must express sympathy and understanding for this killer unlike other mentally ill killers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

NP but let’s say she is remanded to a psych facility and is deemed well and leaves after a few years. What would you do if she gets pregnant again?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m so saddened and shocked by the ignorance and cruelty in this thread. To those of you saying lock “them” up, know that there’s every possibility one of your DCs will have a mental illness at some point. Start being empathetic now.

Several of my family members (sister, first cousin, two second cousins) suffer from mental illness. If any of them killed people I would feel a prison sentence is deserved.

Yup. I have a close family member who had a psychotic break a few years ago and ended up in jail after a violent, police-involved incident. There is no question in my mind that if he weren't white, the police would have shot him. We tried everything to help him and he resisted. He is thankfully doing a lot better now, but at the time, we all recognized that jail was needed and deserved. His mental state, which was brought on by very real paranoid schizophrenia, did not absolve him of responsibility for what he did, nor would he have been found not guilty by reason of insanity. That is a high bar. I am doubtful that Lindsay Clancy meets it here but I guess time will tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

That would be when she starts menopause right? She can’t present no further harm to others until she is past childbearing age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

If it was so “textbook” are her medical providers guilty of malpractice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

If it was so “textbook” are her medical providers guilty of malpractice?

How do you know this, how do you know she had psychosis? It’ll be very difficult to prove as it could have been temporary. She may be completely lucid now, she could have very well been lucid at the time of the murders. It’s very convenient to believe that she was psychotic, if only all murderers could use that excuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

Ok, if one doesn’t suddenly develop psychosis, we need to hold her medical providers accountable. If she gradually became this insane, she lacked capacity and should have been 302’d. Something is not adding up here. Either she wasn’t psychotic or she was and someone dropped the ball here. I believe it’s the former.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

The site you linked to says: “With postpartum psychosis — a rare condition that usually develops within the first week after delivery — the symptoms are severe.” It says nothing about PPD escalating to postpartum psychosis. Quite the opposite actually so 7 months post birth doesn’t really fit.

You didn’t read it entirely. Predictably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Look she is a murderer. This is not complicated

This. 25 pages and this is still the answer.

Yes, we can blame PPD/PPP all we want but in the end, she viciously murdered her three children. It’s the same as the the mentally unstable school shooter, or a mentally ill father who kills his family, who we demonize. Why is PPD/PPP held to a higher standard and empathized with any more than schizophrenia or any other mental illness, or having a long history of being bullied and ostracized?

Postpartum illnesses ARE different than schizophrenia BECAUSE of how they arise. These illnesses are a direct result of predisposition, hormonal imbalances, lifestyle changes, and the many other circumstances that go into someone's mental state. People experiencing postpartum depression and anxiety often have a history of anxiety and depression, but people experiencing postpartum psychosis do not have a history of psychosis. They are not schizophrenic and when the psychosis breaks, they are largely the same people they were before, albeit with the consequences of whatever happened during the psychosis to grapple with.

Postpartum mental health problems have a huge history of stigmatization, even more so than other mental health problems. You need look no further than this thread to see that in action. The prosecutor understands what they're talking about. The posters who have experienced this or have family members who have. But most of you posters have no idea what you're talking about.

As for what treatment she was engaged in, there are various levels of psychiatric care. Your regular outpatient therapy appointments once a week or every other week is the lowest level. It sounded to me like Lindsay Clancy was in an intensive outpatient program, which is essentially 3-4 hours of therapy 3-5 times a week. When I worked in an IOP, it was group therapy, individual therapy, family therapy, and medication management. This was for teenagers, but those are pretty standard components of any higher level of psychiatric care. People who are deemed clinically appropriate for an IOP have been determined to not be actively suicidal or homicidal, not actively psychotic, etc. They are essentially deemed safe enough to stay at home. I don't know the extent to which any of Lindsay's doctors felt that it was safe for her to care for children or be alone with them, but it definitely sounds like her problems were more severe than anyone realized.

I just have a huge issue with the large number of posters who either don't believe that postpartum psychosis is a real thing. It remains to be seen what actually happened here, but it is mindblowing to me that what seems to be such a clear case of postpartum psychosis to me, and the prosecutor, and the PPs who have experience with psychosis, is such a clear case of something else to so many of you.

Murder committed by a woman suffering from PPD/PPP should not punished any differently than murders committed by other mentally ill people. Lindsay was presumably under or misdiagnosed as were probably most school shooters and mass murderers. This is where I have a major issue, we immediately demonize other murderers regardless of their past or present issues/illnesses. Why should PPD/PPP be held to a higher standard? Why? I have a real problem with this. Please explain to me why someone like Nicholas Cruz, who had a terrible childhood and most likely suffered from some mental illness, along with most school shooters, or even Chris Watts, how do we know he wasn’t suffering from some sort of mental illness? Most murderers don’t get a pass, any sympathy, except for postpartum white women.

I think Chris Watts killed his family because he was a selfish jerk who wanted a new life with a sexy lady. So no, I don’t have compassion for him. If he had killed his child because, say, the child was terminal and dying a slow and painful death, and Chris wanted his child to be free from pain, I’d have much more compassion for him.

After learning about Cruz’ life, my disgust shifted from him to his birth mother. I absolutely believe he has FAS and his brain is not wired right. Unfortunately, the way it is wired led him to kill a bunch of innocent people. He’d probably do it again. So, compassion or not, he needs to rot in jail. He is a danger to society.

Putting aside what Clancy will face legally, it just seems to me with proper medication and oversight (no more births), she’s not a danger to our society. She (likely) has a specific psychosis brought on by pregnancy / childbirth.

Lindsay Clancy worked as an L&D RN, I don’t care how medicated she is, I don’t want her caring for me or my baby ever. Luckily she won’t ever work again because she will be institutionalized or imprisoned for life.

I think you still don't understand that postpartum psychosis is not permanent. Women experiencing postpartum psychosis don't STAY psychotic. When the psychosis breaks, it is entirely possible that Lindsay Clancy will be as mentally healthy as you are, PP, albeit with a hell of a trauma to process and try, somehow, to overcome.

The baby was 7 months old and my understanding is that postpartum psychosis comes on very shortly after childbirth and does not last long, especially when treated. How do we know she had this? 7 months after giving birth doesn’t really match with how/when this typically presents. Are people just guessing or has her diagnosis been reported somewhere? Also usually it’s the first birth.

Ye. Why isn't this being talked about more?

Because it is complete disinformation?

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postpartum-depression/symptoms-causes/syc-20376617

Post partum depression and post partum psychosis can occur up to a year from birth, Lindsay Clancy was already suffering six weeks after her child was born in July. She was getting intensive treatment but her PPD was persisting and then she developed psychosis and killed her children.

This is such a textbook case of PPD escalating to psychosis and violence that it is practically textbook. I guarantee you it will be used in law school criminal law courses in future years. The only thing left to be seen is whether the prosecutor remembers the admonition to seek justice not merely convictions, and resists the urge to play to the vengeance voter instead. I’ll eat my hat if the state’s psychiatric evaluation doesn’t also find that this woman was legally insane at the time of these homicides and thus not guilty of murder which requires mens rea formulated in a sane mind. So justice would mean she gets committed to a state psychiatric facility until such time as she presents no further danger to herself or others.

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/post-partum-psychosis/

According to the NHS on rare occasions PPP happens several weeks after birth. In the link you included it doesn’t say PPP occurs up to a year after birth. PPD and PPP are not the same thing.

Your comment is profoundly ignorant of mental illness. You don’t suddenly develop psychosis. Psychosis is a secondary condition of a primary condition like post partum depression or schizophrenia. A woman must have post partum depression before she develops a psychosis from that primary mental disorder. She can start having symptoms of post partum depression anytime within a year of giving birth. She can then develop psychosis months after that and it is still post partum psychosis because it arises from post partum depression.

Please, don’t embarrass yourself by arguing anymore on this with me. I’m the former prosecutor with 20 years experience in the criminal justice system and volumes of reading and training and experience with mental health evaluations and the gamut of DSM diagnoses. You won’t win because you are just wrong.

Cite your references that PPP can develop months later. A simple search of reputable sites do not state what you assert. All say what the PP said, PPP happens within the first few weeks of birth.