TJ admissions now verifying free and reduced price meal status for successful 2026 applicants

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know many points was saying yes to FARMS worth?

90 points

How many total possible points?

Not sure what it means? I think they just added 90 points to total

How many points were the other components worth? GPA. Essays etc

300 GPA, 300 SPS, 300 Math/Science test. up to 225 additional experience points of which meals was 90.

Stop lying on these threads. GPA is only worth 37.5 points, with a minimum possible value of 262.5 through a maximum of 300. The meals bonus was worth over twice as many points as the entire span from a 3.5 GPA through a 4.0.

Huh?

According to the rubric that was made public as part of discovery during the ongoing lawsuit, the score for GPA is 75 * GPA.

Since there is a 3.5 minimum GPA required to be eligible to apply and a 4.0 maximum GPA based on how it was calculated for the purposes of the application, every student will have. GPA score between 362.5 and 400.

As such, the maximum difference in terms of GPA between any two applicants is 400 - 362.5 = 37.5.

To say that GPA is worth 300 points, while strictly true, is misleading, since every applicant earns at least 362.5 of those points.

Since the experience factors are worth either 45 or 90 points each, that means that a 3.5 GPA combined with any experience factor outweighs a 4.0 GPA with no experience factors. In other words, the experience factors are extremely valuable.

Not that valuable. Only 12% of total possible score.

Almost irrelevant since almost everyone accepted had 4.0.

The high-point components of the application are:
300 for the SPS
300 for the math/science essay

They comprise the vast majority of the applicant’s score. If a kid didn’t get in, they probably didn’t write an exceptional essay or portrait.

The essay was apparently very easy and most of the portrait has nothing to do with STEM

The whole thing was/is a disaster.

According to my kid, very few of the students who were expected to get in actually got in i.e., majority of the kids who are generally known to be smart, stood out in the class, perfect or almost perfect GPA, took advantage (and did well) of STEM electives offered by the school, participated in school offered STEM after-school activities etc didn't get admission, but some random and unexpected kids, few of them even had B's got admissions, which surprised many of his peers. He was initially disappointed to be wait listed, but after learning who else got wait listed (and who actually got admissions..lol), he felt TJ doesn't really matter anymore. Well, my kid isn't good at creative writing, which he knows, so its not totally unexpected and as we know GPA doesn't really carry that much weightage compared to portrait sheet and science essay. He was hoping TJ will look into his electives and how well he did in all the courses (as FCPS has whole course work in hand) and consider the after school activities (even if only school based activities are considered), but it didn't really matter at the end (TJ probably didn't look into any of this). Anyways.. this is is how the TJ cohort is going to look like going forward and I doubt anyone realizes a drop in standards and competitiveness any time soon.

There was no reason to think that anyone would look at anything other then what the application called for. Your child should have been able to write a solid essay. It was a part of the application.

Yes, I am not denying what you said. If TJ is not a STEM focussed school, but a general selective school, then I agree that creating writing is very important. But do you think creating writing should be more important for STEM magnet school like TJ than actual activities that demonstrates the the interest in STEM? As many others have noted earlier in this thread there is only 37.5 points diff for min GPA of 3.5 and 4.0. Where as portrait sheet carries 300 points (or 60 points for each question) and 300 points for a single science/math essay (note: this is not really math, but just an essay explaining your point). Nothing else is taked into consideration and no input from teachers. If you are convinced that this is an ideal process to screen the kids for school like TJ, then you will be happy. Those of who think grades and STEM needs to have more weight will be unhappy. Thats all I am trying to convey here. My kid is done here and any changes in future will not help my kid. I am just concerned about future direction of TJ.

It is not ideal but I don't know what ideal looks like. I do think that there should be a requirement that kids complete Geometry and Algebra by the end of 8th grade. But I don't think that they can include after school activities unless those are available to students at each of the MS. And I have no problem with the 1.5% coming from each MS because I do think that there needs to be an effort to have slots available for all the MS and not just the ones were there are extra programs and parents can afford extra activities. This does mean that there are going to be fewer kids from the AAP Centers.

TJ is a high school that focuses on STEM. The kids need to be able to do more then just STEM. Your child has great grades, he should have been able to write a solid essay. I don't know what the topics were but I imagine they required kids to discuss why they like STEM, that should not have been a tall order. People consistently post about how active the kids are in drama and music and debate and other activities that are not STEM based, which is great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

The sports analogy fits so well here

Do sports teams care about geographic diversity or SES status, or whether a kid practices more than another and does the "test" multiple times beforehand????

No they care about the kids with the most talent in sports period. Just like TJ should take the best STEAM students period.

And PS to the liberal posters that keep posting about politics. Get the f out of here. There are adults trying to have a conversation.

The sports analogy NEVER works when it comes to educational and academic opportunities - especially those that are publicly funded.

The job of a sports team is to compete and to win games. While TJ wins many competitions and is frequently highly recognized, it is NO part of the school's mission to win any competitions or top any rankings, and nowhere in any document does it say that its mission is to find the BEST or MOST qualified students.

That wasn't the original analogy, of course. I invoked the sports analogy in the context of the ethics of preparation.

Is it unethical for Tom Brady, or a high school athlete for that matter, to practice, lift weight, and develop a game plan? Should they instead just see whether they can win n their own merits? Of course that's not unethical - they're applauded for practicing and preparing.

The best athletes aren't the ones who can play well without practicing, and more than the best students are the ones who can do well without studying. Being the best is a combination of ability and effort, and honest effort is never unethical.

Why is the Cogat somehow an outlier in which one is accused of cheating, rather than being applauded, for preparing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

The sports analogy fits so well here

Do sports teams care about geographic diversity or SES status, or whether a kid practices more than another and does the "test" multiple times beforehand????

No they care about the kids with the most talent in sports period. Just like TJ should take the best STEAM students period.

And PS to the liberal posters that keep posting about politics. Get the f out of here. There are adults trying to have a conversation.

The sports analogy NEVER works when it comes to educational and academic opportunities - especially those that are publicly funded.

The job of a sports team is to compete and to win games. While TJ wins many competitions and is frequently highly recognized, it is NO part of the school's mission to win any competitions or top any rankings, and nowhere in any document does it say that its mission is to find the BEST or MOST qualified students.

Lol. You are basically admitting that TJ isn't a magnet school and those who are admitted aren't necessarily the most qualified. Then what is TJ supposed to be? I am fine if my kid doesn't get into TJ, but unfortunately base schools have gotten a lot more competitive, so reduced advantage in college admissions

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The purpose of prep programs such as Curie is NOT to make the kids brighter or better prepared for school - it's to make them APPEAR brighter than they are by showing them how to solve the specific types of problems that are being asked (remember - the Quant-Q is NOT a math exam!). They're not magically smarter somehow because their score on an admissions exam improves.

The best way to think of Curie is as a coach who knows what other coaches are looking for in a tryout and teaches the kids those specific skills in order to make them look better. A skilled evaluator can sniff out kids like this and not be fooled by their performance in the tryout.

Hundreds of kids have been denied admission to TJ over the years - and even in some cases been denied from the semifinalist pool - because of scores that were artificially inflated by places like Curie, Sunshine, Kate Dalby, EduAvenues, OptimalTJPrep, etc etc etc. Those kids didn't get smarter - they just got better at taking an exam that is used ONLY to get them into TJ.

THAT's why standardized exams are a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

DP Why not do the bolded? That's exactly what the authors of the CogAT recommended in areas where prepping is prevalent.
Many kids prep and can't achieve high scores. Many other kids don't prep and still get high scores, including low income kids. I'd prefer a system that at least ensures that a kid is even capable of achieving high scores on a test over one that will admit a lot of kids who wouldn't have been capable of high scores even with prep camps. For TJ, they could simply use PSAT 8/9 as a means to identify capable children, since prep materials are widely available, and many kids can't achieve 98th or 99th percentile scores even with a ton of prep.

I know quite a lot of kids who were admitted to AAP with CogAT scores around 120 *after* the parents prepped the kids. Prepping is not as foolproof as people seem to think.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

By the same token why is it unethical to lie about FARMS status or make up accomplishments on your essay?

Not the same token at all. Lying is unethical (perhaps with limited exceptions when a white lie brings about a greater good). Preparing is not.

Not all preparing is the same.

Good preparing:
Asking questions in class
Finishing all of your homework
Reviewing study guide and materials covered in class
Getting a good night’s rest
Eating healthy breakfast

Bad preparing:
Looking at prior-year TJ test questions that were illegally obtained
Prepping for a cognitive test

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

DP Why not do the bolded? That's exactly what the authors of the CogAT recommended in areas where prepping is prevalent.
Many kids prep and can't achieve high scores. Many other kids don't prep and still get high scores, including low income kids. I'd prefer a system that at least ensures that a kid is even capable of achieving high scores on a test over one that will admit a lot of kids who wouldn't have been capable of high scores even with prep camps. For TJ, they could simply use PSAT 8/9 as a means to identify capable children, since prep materials are widely available, and many kids can't achieve 98th or 99th percentile scores even with a ton of prep.

I know quite a lot of kids who were admitted to AAP with CogAT scores around 120 *after* the parents prepped the kids. Prepping is not as foolproof as people seem to think.

I guess that levels the playing ground but fundamentally you should prepare for a cognitive assessment.

Has FCPS sent home materials to prepare for the CogAT? We’ve never seen anything.

[Anonymous]

APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

DP Why not do the bolded? That's exactly what the authors of the CogAT recommended in areas where prepping is prevalent.
Many kids prep and can't achieve high scores. Many other kids don't prep and still get high scores, including low income kids. I'd prefer a system that at least ensures that a kid is even capable of achieving high scores on a test over one that will admit a lot of kids who wouldn't have been capable of high scores even with prep camps. For TJ, they could simply use PSAT 8/9 as a means to identify capable children, since prep materials are widely available, and many kids can't achieve 98th or 99th percentile scores even with a ton of prep.

I know quite a lot of kids who were admitted to AAP with CogAT scores around 120 *after* the parents prepped the kids. Prepping is not as foolproof as people seem to think.

I guess that levels the playing ground but fundamentally you should prepare for a cognitive assessment.

Has FCPS sent home materials to prepare for the CogAT? We’ve never seen anything.

^ fundamentally you should NOT prepare

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

By the same token why is it unethical to lie about FARMS status or make up accomplishments on your essay?

Not the same token at all. Lying is unethical (perhaps with limited exceptions when a white lie brings about a greater good). Preparing is not.

Not all preparing is the same.

Good preparing:
Asking questions in class
Finishing all of your homework
Reviewing study guide and materials covered in class
Getting a good night’s rest
Eating healthy breakfast

Bad preparing:
Looking at prior-year TJ test questions that were illegally obtained
Prepping for a cognitive test

I was with you until the last line. Why is a cognitive test unethical to prep for? If you can arbitrarily add that to the "bad" list, I can just as arbitrarily add it to the "good" list instead.

And how are you defining a cognitive test? Is the SAT or PSAT also a cognitive test? What about AP exams?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

It’s wrong to prepare for some tests. Cogat. The old TJ test.

At the risking of opening up an old can of worms, I've never understood this line of reasoning. Is it better to be unprepared than to be prepared, for anything?

If I'm going to be tested, I want to do as well as I can. Knowing the format of the test and the type of content it addresses seems like an obvious aspect of preparation to undertake. If it's a timed test, then practicing to get a feel for how quickly I need to work also makes sense.

Don't athletes, musicians, actors practice before a tryout? Don't students study before a class exam? Don't job candidates prepare for interviews?

This was exactly my point too. Preparation shows determination, dedication, willingness to learn and grow, and shows the kid will be successful.

How do the kids know to prepare for the cogat or how to do?

Same for TJ - how are they signing up for these prep programs?

Now you're just being silly. Kids also don't know how to improve at sports or a musical instrument - that's why there are coaches and teachers. Kids only know to study for a school exam because the tacher tells them to - is that also unethical? Is it cheating if they study for a test rather than passing based on their own merits?

Why go to school at all? After all, the point is to learn and grow and improve, which sounds just as unethical by your reasoning.

The only kids who are getting prepped for cogat and the old tj test are kids from parents trying to game the system.

It is an unfair advantage for a public school screening test.

If FCPS sent home prep materials to all kids (like they send home study guides for tests), then it’d be fair but they don’t because these tests aren’t designed to be prepped. The questions on the tj test are illegally obtained.

You are obviously willing to go to great lengths to rationalize this cheating. So we can go around and around all day. At the end of the day, most FCPS would agree that it’s cheating. You are an outlier.

How about the kids were tutored by their parents? Are you going to argue that it's unfair because some parents are smarter than others?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

By the same token why is it unethical to lie about FARMS status or make up accomplishments on your essay?

Not the same token at all. Lying is unethical (perhaps with limited exceptions when a white lie brings about a greater good). Preparing is not.

Not all preparing is the same.

Good preparing:
Asking questions in class
Finishing all of your homework
Reviewing study guide and materials covered in class
Getting a good night’s rest
Eating healthy breakfast

Bad preparing:
Looking at prior-year TJ test questions that were illegally obtained
Prepping for a cognitive test

Yup there are 3 groups of people here

The insane wokesters who want to dismantle TJ
The insane TJ preppers who see no problem with doing whatever it takes to get in
Normal people who are trying to make things work such as minimum Geometry, using 6th grade SOL cutoffs, some geography factor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:APA explains it somewhat here:
https://www.apa.org/science/programs/testing/test-security-faq
The reproduction and inclusion of copyrighted test items in scholarly and scientific publications and presentations might not only be a copyright violation but may also undermine test security by potentially placing test items in the public domain, making test takers’ pre-knowledge of test items a major threat to the utility of an instrument. Indeed, it would seem that this concern should not be limited to only copyrighted measures but to any and all tests whose validity would be compromised if test takers had pre-knowledge and could thus "practice" the items.

We are agreed that it is unethical to wrongly obtain the test questions in advance. That does not mean that all preparation is therefore unethical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Don’t be obtuse.

We don’t need to hear your twisted rationalizations for cheating.

Calling me obtuse and my arguments twisted doesn't make it so. Why not just clearly point out the flaws in my reasoning if they're so evident to you?

We aren’t talking about job interviews or studying for a test.

We are talking about the ways parents are cheating the system to give their kids an unfair advantage in AAP/TJ admissions.

It’s unethical to prep for the CogAT and it’s unethical to use former test questions for the old TJ test. It’s cheating the system. If your kids are bright enough let them qualify for AAP/TJ on their own.

You still haven't explained *why* it's unethical to prep for the Cogat. I don't think you can do so successfully, but you should at least try.

Of course one preps to give oneself an advantage, but what's wrong with that? It's not an *unfair* advantage if I prepare well and others prepare less well.

Simply repeating your ad hominem attacks does nothing to prove that you're right. I have provided arguments in support of my view that preparation per se is never unethical. (I grant that illegal activity, breaches of confidentiality, and cheating are unethical - but then one wasn't unethical for prepping, but for prepping *in that fashion*. Prepping without resort to such unethical means, e.g. by studying, familiarizing oneself with publicly available information, and/or practicing, is perfectly ethical and should be encouraged.) You have neither rebutted my arguments not provided counterarguments of your own - you're just banging your fist on the table and repeating "unethical!"

Why isn't it equally unethical, by your reasoning, to prep for *anything*? When is prepping OK according to you and when is it not OK?

The sports analogy fits so well here

Do sports teams care about geographic diversity or SES status, or whether a kid practices more than another and does the "test" multiple times beforehand????

No they care about the kids with the most talent in sports period. Just like TJ should take the best STEAM students period.

And PS to the liberal posters that keep posting about politics. Get the f out of here. There are adults trying to have a conversation.

The sports analogy NEVER works when it comes to educational and academic opportunities - especially those that are publicly funded.

The job of a sports team is to compete and to win games. While TJ wins many competitions and is frequently highly recognized, it is NO part of the school's mission to win any competitions or top any rankings, and nowhere in any document does it say that its mission is to find the BEST or MOST qualified students.

Lol. You are basically admitting that TJ isn't a magnet school and those who are admitted aren't necessarily the most qualified. Then what is TJ supposed to be? I am fine if my kid doesn't get into TJ, but unfortunately base schools have gotten a lot more competitive, so reduced advantage in college admissions

"The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners."

https://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/

So by definition then the top 1.5%!