If Jesus wasn’t a real historical figure, where did Christian theology come from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the skinhead poster a troll?

He just copy & pastes the same thing over and over again.

I think it's the same person who called some of us Christian-hating bigots

No - that person throws tantrums, he doesn’t post random, irrelevant quotes from evangelical nutjobs.

but both are evasive and engage in some very nasty name-calling.

Evangelical nut jobs? And you are complaining about name-calling?

That pastor calls people who disagree with him “skinheads”. So, yeah, a nut job.

He’s a professor, author, scholar and historian.

He is not calling people who disagree with him “skinheads.”

He’s comparing people who are in denial that Jesus was a real historical person and disagree with the entirety of academia, disagree with phd level scholars of antiquity, that Jesus was a real person, and comparing their level of delusion and ignorance with people who deny the earth is round (flat earthers) and Nazi skinheads who go against all respectable historians and claim the holocaust was a hoax.

You are just focusing on the skinhead word to feign outrage, and ignore the fact that he is comparing people who deny the historical certainty of Jesus to flat- earthers, too.

Maybe the comparison offends you because it’s so very accurate? It’s not a thing to be proud of. It’s embarrassing to be so wrong yet steadfast in your ignorance. If you don’t want to be grouped with idiots, don’t be an idiot. It’s simple as.

There’s absolutely zero evidence the man who is being quoted is a bigot or hateful.

Yes, he is calling people “skinheads” because he disagrees with them. He uses inflammatory language in a lame attempt to shame people instead of making a valid argument. Sounds hateful to me.

Again, NONE of those posts from this thread denied historical Jesus. No one said he didn’t exist.

I guess you still don’t have a valid argument to make so you continue to throw out insults. Lame.

Are you insulted because you deny Jesus was a man who walked the earth, and are in the same class as a holocaust denier, a climate denier, or believe the earth is flat?

People throw the insult “Nazi” around very easily in today’s political climate. People who deny the holocaust actually happened are rightly disparaged for doing so; and their denial stems from hate and bigotry and ignorance. Likewise, historians believe that the denial of the historicity of Jesus stems from the same ignorance and hatred. If no respected scholar or historian in the western world denies the historicity of Jesus, no respected historian denies the holocaust, no respected scientist denies the earth is round…yet you feel totally confident that Jesus didn’t exist, he was a myth, he was multiple people vaguely wandering through time as a charismatic cult like figure, he was an invention of a schizophrenic man, etc, you are a bigot and an ignorant liar who will not accept the truth.

You belong in the bin of weirdos who deny climate change, deny the holocaust, get in the RV with the flat earther and adjust your tinfoil hats together. Then you can drive to a local vaccination site and protest the vaccine, that’s who you are.

I haven’t denied that Jesus lived so…

Maybe you’re just trolling at this point?

Why are you defending people here who have? I am not defending Nazi holocaust deniers, kooky flat earthers, frankly dangerous covid conspiracy theory proponents, and climate change skeptics. No reputable or respected historian or scholar denies the historicity of Jesus. Why would you even concern yourself complaining about liars being called out? A post a few pages back stated : “Should we just agree Jesus “most likely existed?”

No. We don’t agree on anything here like that. He existed. Periodt. Dcum anon posters don’t even know basic history. This has zero to do with the divinity of Jesus. If someone is so very ignorant and wrong about basic history, they are probably wrong about a host of other issues.

Nobody on this thread has denied he lived so…

So what? -- nothing. People "on this thread" are irrelevant.

The PP has repeatedly accused people on this thread of denying historical Jesus. And made repeated ad hominem attacks based on that.

It’s not clear if PP is trolling or just has poor reading comprehension.

DP. Good grief. On the very last page somebody, I assumed pp, posted multiple examples of people denying Jesus existed. Did you lose your reading glasses?

Go back and reread - none of the posts from this thread deny that historical Jesus existed.

“There is no convincing evidence that Jesus as a historical person - one whose life closely resembled that of the Biblical Jesus - ever existed at all. Which doesn't mean he didn't, just that there is no evidence of it. However, for most scholars who study early Christianity, it just isn't relevant at all if he existed or not, anymore than say, if you are studying a people who believe the world rests on a giant turtle, it is relevant or not if the turtle exists. The study of religion is the study of belief, and people have never needed actual evidence to believe in religious mythology. They did it fine before Christianity, and do it fine without Christianity in other parts of the world. Christianity is not an exception - the one religion where the stories are actually true - unless you are Christian. Anyone who studies religion from the point of view of a member of the religion is no longer engaged in an objective academic study of that religion, although there is plenty of fine scholarship of that sort from within the academic world of Christian theology. But don't confuse that with scholars proving Christ existed - it's scholars who believe he existed arguing various issues surrounding the internal workings of the religion.“

12/24 9:23 from this thread

Along with multiple posts that state that “Jesus may or may not have existed, but people love a good story.” Several of those types of posts.

Along with the Mithras story (only exists in crude paintings, born of a “virgin” rock, was not crucified, no resurrection) was actually copied by early Christians, that was feebly attempted by several posters.

DP. Bumping this post which identifies some on this thread who denied that Jesus existed.

Another post pointed out the Jesus denier at 12/19 15:35.

why do you keep beating this dead horse? over 400 posts and a couple, if that, have questioned Jesus' existence. Many, quite correctly, have pointed out that the evidence is skimpy and circumstantial. This includes the Bart Erhman video. (p.s. Circumstantial evidence can be quite convincing, but accept it for what it is).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread, but what I have heard makes sense. His geographic location was in the crossroads of east and west. He most likely was exposed to eastern philosophy, think India at the time.
If he had lived in a different time perhaps he would have become a philosopher like Karl Marx or Kiergegaard.
He certainly upset the status quo by becoming a reformist like Martin Luther.
His death was not that unusual, plenty of people were crucified and continued to be for a long time

Jesus was also exposed to Greco-Roman philosophy because they ruled the Middle East in his time.

No, only the most wealthy Jews were exposed to Greco Roman scholarship. It’s possible that Paul and Matthew had been exposed to such teaching, but Jesus would have received only traditional Jewish teaching. Exposure to Greco Roman mythology would explain why Matthew, and only Matthew, described a Virgin Birth. The idea of God impregnating a human woman was common in Greco Roman mythology. Such an idea would be repulsive to Jews.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread, but what I have heard makes sense. His geographic location was in the crossroads of east and west. He most likely was exposed to eastern philosophy, think India at the time.
If he had lived in a different time perhaps he would have become a philosopher like Karl Marx or Kiergegaard.
He certainly upset the status quo by becoming a reformist like Martin Luther.
His death was not that unusual, plenty of people were crucified and continued to be for a long time

Jesus was also exposed to Greco-Roman philosophy because they ruled the Middle East in his time.

No, only the most wealthy Jews were exposed to Greco Roman scholarship. It’s possible that Paul and Matthew had been exposed to such teaching, but Jesus would have received only traditional Jewish teaching. Exposure to Greco Roman mythology would explain why Matthew, and only Matthew, described a Virgin Birth. The idea of God impregnating a human woman was common in Greco Roman mythology. Such an idea would be repulsive to Jews.

Do you think he embellished the story?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the skinhead poster a troll?

He just copy & pastes the same thing over and over again.

I think it's the same person who called some of us Christian-hating bigots

No - that person throws tantrums, he doesn’t post random, irrelevant quotes from evangelical nutjobs.

but both are evasive and engage in some very nasty name-calling.

Evangelical nut jobs? And you are complaining about name-calling?

That pastor calls people who disagree with him “skinheads”. So, yeah, a nut job.

He’s a professor, author, scholar and historian.

He is not calling people who disagree with him “skinheads.”

He’s comparing people who are in denial that Jesus was a real historical person and disagree with the entirety of academia, disagree with phd level scholars of antiquity, that Jesus was a real person, and comparing their level of delusion and ignorance with people who deny the earth is round (flat earthers) and Nazi skinheads who go against all respectable historians and claim the holocaust was a hoax.

You are just focusing on the skinhead word to feign outrage, and ignore the fact that he is comparing people who deny the historical certainty of Jesus to flat- earthers, too.

Maybe the comparison offends you because it’s so very accurate? It’s not a thing to be proud of. It’s embarrassing to be so wrong yet steadfast in your ignorance. If you don’t want to be grouped with idiots, don’t be an idiot. It’s simple as.

There’s absolutely zero evidence the man who is being quoted is a bigot or hateful.

Yes, he is calling people “skinheads” because he disagrees with them. He uses inflammatory language in a lame attempt to shame people instead of making a valid argument. Sounds hateful to me.

Again, NONE of those posts from this thread denied historical Jesus. No one said he didn’t exist.

I guess you still don’t have a valid argument to make so you continue to throw out insults. Lame.

Are you insulted because you deny Jesus was a man who walked the earth, and are in the same class as a holocaust denier, a climate denier, or believe the earth is flat?

People throw the insult “Nazi” around very easily in today’s political climate. People who deny the holocaust actually happened are rightly disparaged for doing so; and their denial stems from hate and bigotry and ignorance. Likewise, historians believe that the denial of the historicity of Jesus stems from the same ignorance and hatred. If no respected scholar or historian in the western world denies the historicity of Jesus, no respected historian denies the holocaust, no respected scientist denies the earth is round…yet you feel totally confident that Jesus didn’t exist, he was a myth, he was multiple people vaguely wandering through time as a charismatic cult like figure, he was an invention of a schizophrenic man, etc, you are a bigot and an ignorant liar who will not accept the truth.

You belong in the bin of weirdos who deny climate change, deny the holocaust, get in the RV with the flat earther and adjust your tinfoil hats together. Then you can drive to a local vaccination site and protest the vaccine, that’s who you are.

I haven’t denied that Jesus lived so…

Maybe you’re just trolling at this point?

Why are you defending people here who have? I am not defending Nazi holocaust deniers, kooky flat earthers, frankly dangerous covid conspiracy theory proponents, and climate change skeptics. No reputable or respected historian or scholar denies the historicity of Jesus. Why would you even concern yourself complaining about liars being called out? A post a few pages back stated : “Should we just agree Jesus “most likely existed?”

No. We don’t agree on anything here like that. He existed. Periodt. Dcum anon posters don’t even know basic history. This has zero to do with the divinity of Jesus. If someone is so very ignorant and wrong about basic history, they are probably wrong about a host of other issues.

Nobody on this thread has denied he lived so…

So what? -- nothing. People "on this thread" are irrelevant.

The PP has repeatedly accused people on this thread of denying historical Jesus. And made repeated ad hominem attacks based on that.

It’s not clear if PP is trolling or just has poor reading comprehension.

DP. Good grief. On the very last page somebody, I assumed pp, posted multiple examples of people denying Jesus existed. Did you lose your reading glasses?

Go back and reread - none of the posts from this thread deny that historical Jesus existed.

“There is no convincing evidence that Jesus as a historical person - one whose life closely resembled that of the Biblical Jesus - ever existed at all. Which doesn't mean he didn't, just that there is no evidence of it. However, for most scholars who study early Christianity, it just isn't relevant at all if he existed or not, anymore than say, if you are studying a people who believe the world rests on a giant turtle, it is relevant or not if the turtle exists. The study of religion is the study of belief, and people have never needed actual evidence to believe in religious mythology. They did it fine before Christianity, and do it fine without Christianity in other parts of the world. Christianity is not an exception - the one religion where the stories are actually true - unless you are Christian. Anyone who studies religion from the point of view of a member of the religion is no longer engaged in an objective academic study of that religion, although there is plenty of fine scholarship of that sort from within the academic world of Christian theology. But don't confuse that with scholars proving Christ existed - it's scholars who believe he existed arguing various issues surrounding the internal workings of the religion.“

12/24 9:23 from this thread

Along with multiple posts that state that “Jesus may or may not have existed, but people love a good story.” Several of those types of posts.

Along with the Mithras story (only exists in crude paintings, born of a “virgin” rock, was not crucified, no resurrection) was actually copied by early Christians, that was feebly attempted by several posters.

DP. Bumping this post which identifies some on this thread who denied that Jesus existed.

Another post pointed out the Jesus denier at 12/19 15:35.

Nope. Re-read it.

"Which doesn't mean he didn't, just that there is no evidence of it."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread, but what I have heard makes sense. His geographic location was in the crossroads of east and west. He most likely was exposed to eastern philosophy, think India at the time.
If he had lived in a different time perhaps he would have become a philosopher like Karl Marx or Kiergegaard.
He certainly upset the status quo by becoming a reformist like Martin Luther.
His death was not that unusual, plenty of people were crucified and continued to be for a long time

Jesus was also exposed to Greco-Roman philosophy because they ruled the Middle East in his time.

No, only the most wealthy Jews were exposed to Greco Roman scholarship. It’s possible that Paul and Matthew had been exposed to such teaching, but Jesus would have received only traditional Jewish teaching. Exposure to Greco Roman mythology would explain why Matthew, and only Matthew, described a Virgin Birth. The idea of God impregnating a human woman was common in Greco Roman mythology. Such an idea would be repulsive to Jews.

The Virgin Birth also appears in Luke, which is both of the gospels that contain a nativity story at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread, but what I have heard makes sense. His geographic location was in the crossroads of east and west. He most likely was exposed to eastern philosophy, think India at the time.
If he had lived in a different time perhaps he would have become a philosopher like Karl Marx or Kiergegaard.
He certainly upset the status quo by becoming a reformist like Martin Luther.
His death was not that unusual, plenty of people were crucified and continued to be for a long time

Jesus was also exposed to Greco-Roman philosophy because they ruled the Middle East in his time.

No, only the most wealthy Jews were exposed to Greco Roman scholarship. It’s possible that Paul and Matthew had been exposed to such teaching, but Jesus would have received only traditional Jewish teaching. Exposure to Greco Roman mythology would explain why Matthew, and only Matthew, described a Virgin Birth. The idea of God impregnating a human woman was common in Greco Roman mythology. Such an idea would be repulsive to Jews.

Isaiah 7:14 (Jewish) prophesied a virgin birth. “Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” If she was a virgin, the impregnation must have been supernatural. No need to fall back in Greco-Roman mythology.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven’t read the whole thread, but what I have heard makes sense. His geographic location was in the crossroads of east and west. He most likely was exposed to eastern philosophy, think India at the time.
If he had lived in a different time perhaps he would have become a philosopher like Karl Marx or Kiergegaard.
He certainly upset the status quo by becoming a reformist like Martin Luther.
His death was not that unusual, plenty of people were crucified and continued to be for a long time

Jesus was also exposed to Greco-Roman philosophy because they ruled the Middle East in his time.

No, only the most wealthy Jews were exposed to Greco Roman scholarship. It’s possible that Paul and Matthew had been exposed to such teaching, but Jesus would have received only traditional Jewish teaching. Exposure to Greco Roman mythology would explain why Matthew, and only Matthew, described a Virgin Birth. The idea of God impregnating a human woman was common in Greco Roman mythology. Such an idea would be repulsive to Jews.

Do you think he embellished the story?

DP. But it had to be that way. She wasn't married yet, so the consequences for being pregnant were death, usually by stoning. Had to be some supernatural force that impregnated her right? I always thought it curious they moved from Nazereth to Bethlehem when Joseph was not from Bethlehem, and there provably was no census being taken at that time. But whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

It’s the whole premise of OP’s thread. There are some deniers here, but they were quickly shot down.

Instead of derailing this thread to talk about the virgin birth, start your own thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

It’s the whole premise of OP’s thread. There are some deniers here, but they were quickly shot down.

Instead of derailing this thread to talk about the virgin birth, start your own thread.

show me the posts (out of over 400) that denies Jesus existed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

It’s the whole premise of OP’s thread. There are some deniers here, but they were quickly shot down.

Instead of derailing this thread to talk about the virgin birth, start your own thread.

the whole premise of the OP's post is a strawman argument

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

It’s the whole premise of OP’s thread. There are some deniers here, but they were quickly shot down.

Instead of derailing this thread to talk about the virgin birth, start your own thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No need to hash this out again. There is no evidence he existed. Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. No one in 2022 knows for sure. Many choose to believe he existed, but not because of any actual evidence.

People talking about a person doesn’t mean the person exists. Ho ho ho.

Skeptics might dismiss personal witness, but some of the hearsay evidence Christian scholars rely on today was written by trusted sources. “The ancient Romans helped lay the groundwork for many aspects of the modern world,” according to National Geographic.

The same unbelieving record keepers of Imperial Roman culture who lay that groundwork also confirmed that Jesus Christ lived and preached during the first century AD. “Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus,” writes Christopher Klein.

If historians doubt the legitimacy of Christian texts because of the gaps between events and extant manuscripts, one must compare the Bible with other famous texts from which we derive much of our history and the foundations for modern western culture.

We might as well “throw away the works of Homer, [...] of whose writings we have no [...] fragments even older than the sixth century — fifteen centuries after the blind poet died. Of the history by Herodotus there is no manuscript extant earlier than the ninth century, but this historian lived in the fifth century before the Christian era. There is no copy of Plato previous to the ninth century, and he wrote considerably more than a thousand years before that.”

One historian, responsible for much of what we know about Rome in the first century AD, is Flavius Josephus. He composed “one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.” Josephus was born shortly after the crucifixion of Jesus and, according to Ehrman, “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine.”

Lawrence Mykytiuk assures readers that Josephus was able to write freely because of his unusual position of safety and privilege in Rome, while other Jews would have been cautious. Josephus mentions Jesus twice in his great work entitled “Jewish Antiquities,” dated around 93 AD.

As a “well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine [...] during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 AD,” he did not follow Christ. Josephus “knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” according to Mykytiuk.

The text talks about James, the brother of Jesus. Josephus further specified which Jesus he was referring to by adding the phrase “who is called Messiah,” or, since he was writing in Greek, Christos.

Although Bible scholars concede that Christians have made additions or changes to some historical texts, “this phrase — ‘who is called Christ’ — is very unlikely to have been added by a Christian” because Christian texts always referred to James as “the brother of Jesus,” and because “Josephus’s description in Jewish Antiquities of how and when James was executed disagrees with Christian tradition, likewise implying a non-Christian author.’ These small points identify a non-biased writer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.christianity.com/wiki/jesus-christ/does-proof-of-jesus-other-than-in-the-bible-exist.html%3famp=1

Gee, a Christian website thinks that Jesus lived. Shocker.

We also don’t know that Homer lived.

The Christian website gives the reasons why every reputable scholar in the Western world and every reputable professor of history, antiquities, religion, etc, in the western world, believe Jesus was a real man and walked the earth.

Meanwhile, a pocket of Christ deniers, like their flat earther and Hillary Clinton is a lizard person brothers and sisters, continues to show their foolishness. They alone stand against every scholar and historian in the western world, with their denial and conspiracy theories, on dcum.

Bit of a red herring I think. The question is was he divine? Begotten of God? Born of a virgin? Ascended bodily into heaven? As much as I do like the sermon on the mount and message of love, is that enough to build a whole religion around?

Goal post moved.

true. But it had to be moved. The claim that people here are insisting Jesus didn't exist is a strawman.

It’s the whole premise of OP’s thread. There are some deniers here, but they were quickly shot down.

Instead of derailing this thread to talk about the virgin birth, start your own thread.

the whole premise of the OP's post is a strawman argument

PP pointed out deniers.

If you don’t like the thread, ignore it. Don’t tell yourself everybody is crying out for you to derail it. Duh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is the skinhead poster a troll?

He just copy & pastes the same thing over and over again.

I think it's the same person who called some of us Christian-hating bigots

No - that person throws tantrums, he doesn’t post random, irrelevant quotes from evangelical nutjobs.

but both are evasive and engage in some very nasty name-calling.

Evangelical nut jobs? And you are complaining about name-calling?

That pastor calls people who disagree with him “skinheads”. So, yeah, a nut job.

He’s a professor, author, scholar and historian.

He is not calling people who disagree with him “skinheads.”

He’s comparing people who are in denial that Jesus was a real historical person and disagree with the entirety of academia, disagree with phd level scholars of antiquity, that Jesus was a real person, and comparing their level of delusion and ignorance with people who deny the earth is round (flat earthers) and Nazi skinheads who go against all respectable historians and claim the holocaust was a hoax.

You are just focusing on the skinhead word to feign outrage, and ignore the fact that he is comparing people who deny the historical certainty of Jesus to flat- earthers, too.

Maybe the comparison offends you because it’s so very accurate? It’s not a thing to be proud of. It’s embarrassing to be so wrong yet steadfast in your ignorance. If you don’t want to be grouped with idiots, don’t be an idiot. It’s simple as.

There’s absolutely zero evidence the man who is being quoted is a bigot or hateful.

Yes, he is calling people “skinheads” because he disagrees with them. He uses inflammatory language in a lame attempt to shame people instead of making a valid argument. Sounds hateful to me.

Again, NONE of those posts from this thread denied historical Jesus. No one said he didn’t exist.

I guess you still don’t have a valid argument to make so you continue to throw out insults. Lame.

Are you insulted because you deny Jesus was a man who walked the earth, and are in the same class as a holocaust denier, a climate denier, or believe the earth is flat?

People throw the insult “Nazi” around very easily in today’s political climate. People who deny the holocaust actually happened are rightly disparaged for doing so; and their denial stems from hate and bigotry and ignorance. Likewise, historians believe that the denial of the historicity of Jesus stems from the same ignorance and hatred. If no respected scholar or historian in the western world denies the historicity of Jesus, no respected historian denies the holocaust, no respected scientist denies the earth is round…yet you feel totally confident that Jesus didn’t exist, he was a myth, he was multiple people vaguely wandering through time as a charismatic cult like figure, he was an invention of a schizophrenic man, etc, you are a bigot and an ignorant liar who will not accept the truth.

You belong in the bin of weirdos who deny climate change, deny the holocaust, get in the RV with the flat earther and adjust your tinfoil hats together. Then you can drive to a local vaccination site and protest the vaccine, that’s who you are.

I haven’t denied that Jesus lived so…

Maybe you’re just trolling at this point?

Why are you defending people here who have? I am not defending Nazi holocaust deniers, kooky flat earthers, frankly dangerous covid conspiracy theory proponents, and climate change skeptics. No reputable or respected historian or scholar denies the historicity of Jesus. Why would you even concern yourself complaining about liars being called out? A post a few pages back stated : “Should we just agree Jesus “most likely existed?”

No. We don’t agree on anything here like that. He existed. Periodt. Dcum anon posters don’t even know basic history. This has zero to do with the divinity of Jesus. If someone is so very ignorant and wrong about basic history, they are probably wrong about a host of other issues.

Nobody on this thread has denied he lived so…

So what? -- nothing. People "on this thread" are irrelevant.

The PP has repeatedly accused people on this thread of denying historical Jesus. And made repeated ad hominem attacks based on that.

It’s not clear if PP is trolling or just has poor reading comprehension.

DP. Good grief. On the very last page somebody, I assumed pp, posted multiple examples of people denying Jesus existed. Did you lose your reading glasses?

Go back and reread - none of the posts from this thread deny that historical Jesus existed.

“There is no convincing evidence that Jesus as a historical person - one whose life closely resembled that of the Biblical Jesus - ever existed at all. Which doesn't mean he didn't, just that there is no evidence of it. However, for most scholars who study early Christianity, it just isn't relevant at all if he existed or not, anymore than say, if you are studying a people who believe the world rests on a giant turtle, it is relevant or not if the turtle exists. The study of religion is the study of belief, and people have never needed actual evidence to believe in religious mythology. They did it fine before Christianity, and do it fine without Christianity in other parts of the world. Christianity is not an exception - the one religion where the stories are actually true - unless you are Christian. Anyone who studies religion from the point of view of a member of the religion is no longer engaged in an objective academic study of that religion, although there is plenty of fine scholarship of that sort from within the academic world of Christian theology. But don't confuse that with scholars proving Christ existed - it's scholars who believe he existed arguing various issues surrounding the internal workings of the religion.“

12/24 9:23 from this thread

Along with multiple posts that state that “Jesus may or may not have existed, but people love a good story.” Several of those types of posts.

Along with the Mithras story (only exists in crude paintings, born of a “virgin” rock, was not crucified, no resurrection) was actually copied by early Christians, that was feebly attempted by several posters.

DP. Bumping this post which identifies some on this thread who denied that Jesus existed.

Another post pointed out the Jesus denier at 12/19 15:35.

Nope. Re-read it.

"Which doesn't mean he didn't, just that there is no evidence of it."

Do you split hairs for a living? Is your reading comprehension poor? Or are you just trolling?

Tell us, what does “there is no evidence” mean in your little troll world.