DA vs ECNL vs everything else

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

These type of posts are information and worthwhile. I too think WS has greatly improved their coaching with Cole and Henderson. Things will continue to improve there. FCV also added Puppione, who, from the scuttlebutt, is an excellent coach and should help whatever age groups he is involved with. I also have heard that positive coaching changes are coming at Arlington GDA. BRYC, MCLEAN, VDA and LOUDOUN all seem to be status quo at best in terms of coaches. Clearly those ECNL clubs at the younger ages are losing more than they're gaining to and from the GDA. Therefore, lots of evidence to support the theory that the momentum is in the GDA favor over ECNL.

And then you have that pesky fact that the talent seems to be migrating primarily in one direction. Away from ECNL and towards GDA.

Cue the former FCV dad guy that can't get over this past season and loves to bash all things GDA. Hopefully VDA or Loudoun will tolerate your jack*** behavior for your DD sake.

[Anonymous]

Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Don't you think that if there is real development then at some point the record will show it? The reason I ask is because I am interested to see if the club can train up a group like the 04s which on average were less skilled going into year 1. With the current dynamic, this age group will not attract the top players from neighboring top teams like fcv does. If that dynamic holds, and if the club can train these girls up and show improvement as measured by record, then something will have been proven.
And to answer your question, if my player begins to start less that means there are better players at that position, nothing more. Every player at this level has to own their own development, and if that is not happening changes will be made, winning or not.

It's an interesting question. The full answer is that there are a number of issues at play when discussing development. I'm only going to discuss 03s and 04s here, since that seems to be the point of contention, based on record.
1. Yes, some players can be coached up, and certainly a fair number of WS players fell into that category, as between 04s and 03s combined, there were maybe 5 players total that came from the ECNL. For the rest, they had never been exposed to the pace of play needed to be successful in the DA. That's not even talking about issues of cleanness of technique, aerial control, etc. So certainly yes, most of the players required varying degrees of coaching and development.

2. Some players though may be so far behind that the overall level is beyond anything they can catch up with. For them, staying may become a confidence breaker, as they are never able to successfully hold on to the ball, connect a meaningful pass, or win possession. It happens. For those players, they may need to drop down a level. There is a sweet spot in being challenged. You don't want it to be so easy that a player isn't stretched a little, and you don't want it to be so excessively difficult that they can't keep up. That's also why playing up some is great, but excessive playing up leads to players not knowing what it's like to have time on the ball and any ability to dominate ever.

3. WS took a chance on some players - as all truly developmental clubs should. This is where the rubber meets the road on talent identification vs talent selection. A lot of clubs claim to identify talent, but they are simply selecting it. Talent selection is simple; talent identification though, that takes real skill. FCV is the classic talent selector, and we hear them here on the board all the time, boasting about their results as proof.

Talent identification though requires a coach to look at the potential of a player - see the higher level technique, tactical abilities, and recognize that even if a player isn't right now having an immediate impact, the ability (when properly developed) is in fact higher than the easier to select "practiced" player who has just been well programmed enough in the earlier years. It takes investment on the part of the club to be willing to give up some instant gratification for the long term of a better player down the road. American soccer is often guilty of selecting talent by looking at current athleticism, speed, size, having a roster of older players, and giving them a lot of minutes to win a game by sheer force. The ECNL was filled with teams like that, and I saw teams win games they shouldn't have based on those very things, even though the team they beat actually had the more skilled, technical players.

WS gave an opportunity to players that may have been overlooked for the wrong reasons. And let's not forget politics plays into all of this. I have seen players make teams - even ECNL teams - because their dad is a coach in either the main club or a feeder club, not because they deserve it.

4. EDP is a great concept, because it gives an opportunity to 04s and 03s that may have developed this year, but still need more time in the program. They may then later be ready to move back into that fast paced environment. CA has formed an entire DP league. I think the concept of a tiered system is more valuable for players. But maybe for now, that's just not on the menu.

^^^THIS. This board needs more thoughtful, well laid out comments like this. No bashing, name calling, etc. This is quite possibly the best post I have seen on this board to date, thanks to this poster for taking the time to lay this all out there. This kind of information is what is most helpful to all of us, regardless of DA or ECNL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

For most parents the coach is major factor in deciding what club to join. Shouldn't WS do better at that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Don't you think that if there is real development then at some point the record will show it? The reason I ask is because I am interested to see if the club can train up a group like the 04s which on average were less skilled going into year 1. With the current dynamic, this age group will not attract the top players from neighboring top teams like fcv does. If that dynamic holds, and if the club can train these girls up and show improvement as measured by record, then something will have been proven.
And to answer your question, if my player begins to start less that means there are better players at that position, nothing more. Every player at this level has to own their own development, and if that is not happening changes will be made, winning or not.

It's an interesting question. The full answer is that there are a number of issues at play when discussing development. I'm only going to discuss 03s and 04s here, since that seems to be the point of contention, based on record.
1. Yes, some players can be coached up, and certainly a fair number of WS players fell into that category, as between 04s and 03s combined, there were maybe 5 players total that came from the ECNL. For the rest, they had never been exposed to the pace of play needed to be successful in the DA. That's not even talking about issues of cleanness of technique, aerial control, etc. So certainly yes, most of the players required varying degrees of coaching and development.

2. Some players though may be so far behind that the overall level is beyond anything they can catch up with. For them, staying may become a confidence breaker, as they are never able to successfully hold on to the ball, connect a meaningful pass, or win possession. It happens. For those players, they may need to drop down a level. There is a sweet spot in being challenged. You don't want it to be so easy that a player isn't stretched a little, and you don't want it to be so excessively difficult that they can't keep up. That's also why playing up some is great, but excessive playing up leads to players not knowing what it's like to have time on the ball and any ability to dominate ever.

3. WS took a chance on some players - as all truly developmental clubs should. This is where the rubber meets the road on talent identification vs talent selection. A lot of clubs claim to identify talent, but they are simply selecting it. Talent selection is simple; talent identification though, that takes real skill. FCV is the classic talent selector, and we hear them here on the board all the time, boasting about their results as proof.

Talent identification though requires a coach to look at the potential of a player - see the higher level technique, tactical abilities, and recognize that even if a player isn't right now having an immediate impact, the ability (when properly developed) is in fact higher than the easier to select "practiced" player who has just been well programmed enough in the earlier years. It takes investment on the part of the club to be willing to give up some instant gratification for the long term of a better player down the road. American soccer is often guilty of selecting talent by looking at current athleticism, speed, size, having a roster of older players, and giving them a lot of minutes to win a game by sheer force. The ECNL was filled with teams like that, and I saw teams win games they shouldn't have based on those very things, even though the team they beat actually had the more skilled, technical players.

WS gave an opportunity to players that may have been overlooked for the wrong reasons. And let's not forget politics plays into all of this. I have seen players make teams - even ECNL teams - because their dad is a coach in either the main club or a feeder club, not because they deserve it.

4. EDP is a great concept, because it gives an opportunity to 04s and 03s that may have developed this year, but still need more time in the program. They may then later be ready to move back into that fast paced environment. CA has formed an entire DP league. I think the concept of a tiered system is more valuable for players. But maybe for now, that's just not on the menu.

^^^THIS. This board needs more thoughtful, well laid out comments like this. No bashing, name calling, etc. This is quite possibly the best post I have seen on this board to date, thanks to this poster for taking the time to lay this all out there. This kind of information is what is most helpful to all of us, regardless of DA or ECNL.

Agree 100%. My daughter plays on WS MD and this definitely applies there as well. Denise Reddy perhaps more by necessity than any other reason had to look for the hidden gems as the ECNL defection from Bethesda did not happen. I think she found a few.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

For most parents the coach is major factor in deciding what club to join. Shouldn't WS do better at that?

Naming a coach to close a deal on a player signing does't seem like it should be they way a pro academy is run. The player should be buying into an overall process, not one person. The staff has been named, that's good enough for us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

For most parents the coach is major factor in deciding what club to join. Shouldn't WS do better at that?

Naming a coach to close a deal on a player signing does't seem like it should be they way a pro academy is run. The player should be buying into an overall process, not one person. The staff has been named, that's good enough for us.

Yeah, except it's not a pro academy. It's pay to play, and people howl on this board for the same reason at other clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

For most parents the coach is major factor in deciding what club to join. Shouldn't WS do better at that?

Naming a coach to close a deal on a player signing does't seem like it should be they way a pro academy is run. The player should be buying into an overall process, not one person. The staff has been named, that's good enough for us.

This is a dumb statement. The coach is the NUMBER ONE factor in development at the youth level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Who is coaching the WS VA 04s next year?

That has not been announced yet. None of the team assignments have been made yet.

For most parents the coach is major factor in deciding what club to join. Shouldn't WS do better at that?

Naming a coach to close a deal on a player signing does't seem like it should be they way a pro academy is run. The player should be buying into an overall process, not one person. The staff has been named, that's good enough for us.

This is a dumb statement. The coach is the NUMBER ONE factor in development at the youth level.

What I would say is WS VA is in between. We know who the coaches are, so that factor is answered. They just haven't been assigned teams: Virginia DA
Director Tom Torres
George Hales
Holly Wiles
Lisa Cole
Lyndse Hokanson
Jane Dawber
Spencer Henderson
Zach Roszel
Kristi Beckman
Lori Lindsey

Some of these we already know what they will be doing (like Dawber is announced for U9 through U12 pre-academy). And Zach is gk. So it will most likely be either Hales, Cole, Henderson, Torres, or Beckman.

[Anonymous]

there should a clause in every contract that if the coach changes between tryouts and start of season the family has an out. and it should also the coach should have a clause to keep them coaching a certain team. The families are paying the coach its like signing at the dealership to get the Mercedes 600sl but them giving you a 230c oh well!!!

[Anonymous]

Zach is an outstanding GK coach.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

I actually don't think there are many players/parents choosing for wins per se. Virtually all players at FCV are there because they want to play with the best. Wins generally follow. Semantics perhaps. Still, wins and losses are indicators of strength. They are better indicators the higher the level. At U13, not very good, at U18, very good.

My critical comments give the impression I don't like WS. Not true, I am actually impressed with the club. It's when folks throw shade on other clubs without real data, and then folks fluff up their club with hyperbole that cause me to want to calibrate. We know several players at WS, and they are generally happy. I think the development there is likely very good, but the youth soccer dynamics of the area will meter the ability to draw in studs.

Parents bring their kids to FCV because they want to win and care most about the scoreboard. They think winning soccer games at U14 means their money is well spent.

If you want the best college recruiting go to Bethesda or BRYC. If you wanted to play with the best you go to WS. They have the best players at the GNT level - there is no question there. They give you access to pro coaches. The coaches run circles around FCV coaches. Those guys are amateurs (I mean guys literally - female coaches won't work there).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

I actually don't think there are many players/parents choosing for wins per se. Virtually all players at FCV are there because they want to play with the best. Wins generally follow. Semantics perhaps. Still, wins and losses are indicators of strength. They are better indicators the higher the level. At U13, not very good, at U18, very good.

My critical comments give the impression I don't like WS. Not true, I am actually impressed with the club. It's when folks throw shade on other clubs without real data, and then folks fluff up their club with hyperbole that cause me to want to calibrate. We know several players at WS, and they are generally happy. I think the development there is likely very good, but the youth soccer dynamics of the area will meter the ability to draw in studs.

Parents bring their kids to FCV because they want to win and care most about the scoreboard. They think winning soccer games at U14 means their money is well spent.

If you want the best college recruiting go to Bethesda or BRYC. If you wanted to play with the best you go to WS. They have the best players at the GNT level - there is no question there. They give you access to pro coaches. The coaches run circles around FCV coaches. Those guys are amateurs (I mean guys literally - female coaches won't work there).

Are you including the new coach at FCV in those comments? How about the coaches at VDA and Loudoun, how are they?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

I actually don't think there are many players/parents choosing for wins per se. Virtually all players at FCV are there because they want to play with the best. Wins generally follow. Semantics perhaps. Still, wins and losses are indicators of strength. They are better indicators the higher the level. At U13, not very good, at U18, very good.

My critical comments give the impression I don't like WS. Not true, I am actually impressed with the club. It's when folks throw shade on other clubs without real data, and then folks fluff up their club with hyperbole that cause me to want to calibrate. We know several players at WS, and they are generally happy. I think the development there is likely very good, but the youth soccer dynamics of the area will meter the ability to draw in studs.

Parents bring their kids to FCV because they want to win and care most about the scoreboard. They think winning soccer games at U14 means their money is well spent.

If you want the best college recruiting go to Bethesda or BRYC. If you wanted to play with the best you go to WS. They have the best players at the GNT level - there is no question there. They give you access to pro coaches. The coaches run circles around FCV coaches. Those guys are amateurs (I mean guys literally - female coaches won't work there).

Are you including the new coach at FCV in those comments? How about the coaches at VDA and Loudoun, how are they?

Well the VDA and Loudoun coaches are not former Brazilian pros who tell foolish parents to send their kid to Brazil to get better. FCV is all alone there. LMAO.