DA vs ECNL vs everything else

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is an interesting conversation on college versus pro for the girls. If your DD isn’t a Mallory Pugh (or a Lindsay Horan, who did skip college to go play in France before coming back to the NWSL and WNT I believe), isn’t it a good idea to use soccer to get a college degree? I’m making these numbers up, but let’s say my DD is in the 20% of 15 year old girls nationally who would be capable of playing for a top college team, but I don’t know whether she’s in the 6% that can then play NWSL, or the 0.5% that an go USWNT. If you know you’re in the 20%, but the higher and narrower levels are a crapshoot, AND you know that only a few of the NWSL pro players, generally those on the USWNT, can actually pay their rent and otherwise make a living on their soccer salaries . . . Why wouldn’t you want a college degree to be part of what your kid gets out of soccer, even if the in-college development isn’t fabulous?

What’s the development for at that stage, I guess? Obviously, if my daughter is good enough to make it to the NWSL or the WNT, that’s great and I’ll support that. But I don’t think forgoing college to go pro makes a ton of life sense on the women’s side unless your DD is in a very rarified category—and you know that she is because the soccer world is tellling her and you that already. if she’s not in that category, well, it’s hard to go back to school as a 26 year old.

It's called dreams and grit. If she's in the top 20% at 15, she has a chance. If she has a dream, she has a chance. If she has grit, she has the one ingredient every successful pro has. Team USA may be elusive, but there are a lot of pro options surfacing globally. Taking any of those paths and getting to live in another country and to add being a professional athlete to her life long resume probably prepare her and set her apart from other job applicants pretty well in the game of life after soccer. And she'll know within the first 2 or 3 years if team USA (or another country if you have heritage elsewhere?) are in her future. If not, and the money's not there, and the learning has stopped, and the dream is dead, she's still only 20 or 21 and can go to school a more rounded and experienced person.

On the college option, she may get a scholarship offer to play, but what if it's not one of the top 10 schools in soccer or top 5 in her chosen major? If it's not, then it's just 4 years of life experience and checking a box during her prime athletic years that she'll never get back. D1 sports dominates college life. It's a job. They could end up miserable, but can't quit because of the money. That box can always be checked, and when she's older she might actually realize what she really wants major in and be more focused and successful in academics without the distraction of a full time "job" at school.

It's not predestined which ones at 15 will go all the way. For the most part, they all can. If they have the mentality and talent, the grit is what will separate them as they move up the latter.

And that's what the development is about. If you don't seek the most challenging situations, you'll never know if the grit is there. She should never be the star on any youth team. Move on, move up. Don't follow the dogma of middle aged men who've only ever coached youth soccer in their lives and taken your checks and are more focused on using your dd to win games to build their business rather than working to push her out of her comfort zone so you can both find out if her dream can come true.

Excellent post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no need to explain your WS selection to one or two Loudoun ECNL parents with 5th grade players.

They will learn soon enough like we all did.

U9 parents are like children. Better seen and not heard.

Lol.

I kid. I kid

Lol!! You're right. I remember when the boys DA came out, and I saw the same amount of denial, the same ridiculous comments, etc.

Very few are capable of being pioneers, taking that risk and having their butts out there, on the line...

Serious question for brave WS crew. If your record does not show marked improvement next year, and the next, how long will you stick with it?

Team wins do not equate player growth or development.

Serious question for FCV parent. If you’re kid is not starting but the team is winning, how long will you stick it out?

Don't you think that if there is real development then at some point the record will show it? The reason I ask is because I am interested to see if the club can train up a group like the 04s which on average were less skilled going into year 1. With the current dynamic, this age group will not attract the top players from neighboring top teams like fcv does. If that dynamic holds, and if the club can train these girls up and show improvement as measured by record, then something will have been proven.
And to answer your question, if my player begins to start less that means there are better players at that position, nothing more. Every player at this level has to own their own development, and if that is not happening changes will be made, winning or not.

FCV is not attracting top talent from neighboring teams anymore. Their youth pipeline is empty and that has never been the case until this year. There are too many other viable options and they are the victims of the watering down in this area because of their shady reputation.

Talent selection and winning isn't everything you need to keep a program strong. You have to develop talent and care about the players. FCV gets steadily worse as you go younger until for some ages there is no soccer at all. The club has a huge demographic issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From the LS FAQ website


"Loudoun Soccer has applied to join ECNL every year since 2012 – including 2017. It was denied every year."

LMFAO

Congratultions LS..everyone left...you can have it now.

Thanks FCV dad.

Not a FCV dad...don't insult me....like the paid staff at LS insulted you with that post...lmfao

Sorry about that FCV Coach.

Lol, probably the one that has been frantically calling and emailing all those parents that are leaving begging them to stay and telling all of them how much better they are than the other clubs.

So they have ECNL now. Why worry about the past. Look at the future. That doesn't bode well for FCV DA don't you think?

ECNL is on life support

McLean 05 has been completely dismantled.
Loudoun 05 has been completely dismantled
McLean 04 was almost dismantled. Will be next year.
Bryc 05 in last place
BRYC 04 is weak
VDA players leaving for DA's



Where do you get your info regarding Mclean and Loudoun 05's? BRYC 04/05 are on the weaker side but their older age groups are very strong and solid. There will always be some birth years that have a weaker player pool while others are stronger. As far as I know VDA retained most of their players. Yes, there was some movement but definitely nothing out of the ordinary there.
It is still a good option for those that don't want to commit to the DA life style or happen to be Elite players but need more time to develop. I have seen several great ECNL that would beat many low end DA or mid tier DA teams. Just because your club is DA doesn't mean your daughter is on the superior team

Close to 20 players left the McLean 05 group from top two teams. If that isn’t dismantling, I don’t know what is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don't understand the FCV bashing. It seems petty.

Awww poor FCV. If the club would just admit that they would rather take shortcuts and recruit over actually develop them they wouldn’t be hypocritical, they’d just be arrogant d-bags who yell at kids.

Just enjoy your time with your daughter’s new team at VDA and give it a rest. Obviously you feel wronged, have your DD prove it on the field.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Don't you think that if there is real development then at some point the record will show it? The reason I ask is because I am interested to see if the club can train up a group like the 04s which on average were less skilled going into year 1. With the current dynamic, this age group will not attract the top players from neighboring top teams like fcv does. If that dynamic holds, and if the club can train these girls up and show improvement as measured by record, then something will have been proven.
And to answer your question, if my player begins to start less that means there are better players at that position, nothing more. Every player at this level has to own their own development, and if that is not happening changes will be made, winning or not.

It's an interesting question. The full answer is that there are a number of issues at play when discussing development. I'm only going to discuss 03s and 04s here, since that seems to be the point of contention, based on record.
1. Yes, some players can be coached up, and certainly a fair number of WS players fell into that category, as between 04s and 03s combined, there were maybe 5 players total that came from the ECNL. For the rest, they had never been exposed to the pace of play needed to be successful in the DA. That's not even talking about issues of cleanness of technique, aerial control, etc. So certainly yes, most of the players required varying degrees of coaching and development.

2. Some players though may be so far behind that the overall level is beyond anything they can catch up with. For them, staying may become a confidence breaker, as they are never able to successfully hold on to the ball, connect a meaningful pass, or win possession. It happens. For those players, they may need to drop down a level. There is a sweet spot in being challenged. You don't want it to be so easy that a player isn't stretched a little, and you don't want it to be so excessively difficult that they can't keep up. That's also why playing up some is great, but excessive playing up leads to players not knowing what it's like to have time on the ball and any ability to dominate ever.

3. WS took a chance on some players - as all truly developmental clubs should. This is where the rubber meets the road on talent identification vs talent selection. A lot of clubs claim to identify talent, but they are simply selecting it. Talent selection is simple; talent identification though, that takes real skill. FCV is the classic talent selector, and we hear them here on the board all the time, boasting about their results as proof.

Talent identification though requires a coach to look at the potential of a player - see the higher level technique, tactical abilities, and recognize that even if a player isn't right now having an immediate impact, the ability (when properly developed) is in fact higher than the easier to select "practiced" player who has just been well programmed enough in the earlier years. It takes investment on the part of the club to be willing to give up some instant gratification for the long term of a better player down the road. American soccer is often guilty of selecting talent by looking at current athleticism, speed, size, having a roster of older players, and giving them a lot of minutes to win a game by sheer force. The ECNL was filled with teams like that, and I saw teams win games they shouldn't have based on those very things, even though the team they beat actually had the more skilled, technical players.

WS gave an opportunity to players that may have been overlooked for the wrong reasons. And let's not forget politics plays into all of this. I have seen players make teams - even ECNL teams - because their dad is a coach in either the main club or a feeder club, not because they deserve it.

4. EDP is a great concept, because it gives an opportunity to 04s and 03s that may have developed this year, but still need more time in the program. They may then later be ready to move back into that fast paced environment. CA has formed an entire DP league. I think the concept of a tiered system is more valuable for players. But maybe for now, that's just not on the menu.

You make some good points but as an outsider to the WS program, I cannot tell if the 'playup' tack is the result of philosophy or necessity. Certainly this first year, the 04's that played up on the 03 team were doing so because of necessity. Almost all of those incoming 04's were playing on second or non-elite teams the year prior. I don't know how many 05/06/07 studs came out to tryouts for this coming year, but there might be some of that still going on for a few years.

In any event, all the relative age effect that causes some of the playing up will level out by U16/17 and certainly by U18/19. All those girls who have been playing up will crash into the age ceiling at the U18/19 team as juniors and seniors. If all of the great WS development techniques work, we should be able to see the U16/17 and U18/19 teams begin to dominate in years to come. And the point I'm making is that it most likely won't be due to recruiting, it will have to come from development. This is because of the dynamic of plopping a new DA franchise geographically between a bunch of good clubs without a good feeder system in place.

So in my opinion ultimately results have to come regardless of the development philosophy. My guess is that we will have to wait perhaps 5-7 years to see consistently great U19/19 teams coming out of WS. And of course, if something else on the youth soccer landscape changes to alter the dynamics, this could all change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add one more thing

When you look at any DA or ECNL roster you will notice that most of the really competitive teams are made up of primarily older girls who benifited from the age change.

For example...look at any 03 ECNL or DA team and count how girls are 8th graders vs 9th graders.

Also, don't forget that a lot of kids were forced to skip and entire year of training due to the age change as well.

That alone sent shockwaves

Have a look at the bryc u15 roster from this current year at the ecnl site if you want to see a club with players playing up. That team is about half 04s playing up. And they are killing it. Doesnt really fit your mold.

Lol...not true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add one more thing

When you look at any DA or ECNL roster you will notice that most of the really competitive teams are made up of primarily older girls who benifited from the age change.

For example...look at any 03 ECNL or DA team and count how girls are 8th graders vs 9th graders.

Also, don't forget that a lot of kids were forced to skip and entire year of training due to the age change as well.

That alone sent shockwaves

Have a look at the bryc u15 roster from this current year at the ecnl site if you want to see a club with players playing up. That team is about half 04s playing up. And they are killing it. Doesnt really fit your mold.

Lol...not true.

http://www.eliteclubsnationalleague.com/member-clubs/?view=teamDetails&teamId=1517

13 2022 grads. U15's are mostly 2021 grads. Now you can't tell from this if all 2022 grads are 04's (playups), but certainly the PP's comment that really competitive teams are made up of primarily older girls does not hold here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Don't you think that if there is real development then at some point the record will show it? The reason I ask is because I am interested to see if the club can train up a group like the 04s which on average were less skilled going into year 1. With the current dynamic, this age group will not attract the top players from neighboring top teams like fcv does. If that dynamic holds, and if the club can train these girls up and show improvement as measured by record, then something will have been proven.
And to answer your question, if my player begins to start less that means there are better players at that position, nothing more. Every player at this level has to own their own development, and if that is not happening changes will be made, winning or not.

It's an interesting question. The full answer is that there are a number of issues at play when discussing development. I'm only going to discuss 03s and 04s here, since that seems to be the point of contention, based on record.
1. Yes, some players can be coached up, and certainly a fair number of WS players fell into that category, as between 04s and 03s combined, there were maybe 5 players total that came from the ECNL. For the rest, they had never been exposed to the pace of play needed to be successful in the DA. That's not even talking about issues of cleanness of technique, aerial control, etc. So certainly yes, most of the players required varying degrees of coaching and development.

2. Some players though may be so far behind that the overall level is beyond anything they can catch up with. For them, staying may become a confidence breaker, as they are never able to successfully hold on to the ball, connect a meaningful pass, or win possession. It happens. For those players, they may need to drop down a level. There is a sweet spot in being challenged. You don't want it to be so easy that a player isn't stretched a little, and you don't want it to be so excessively difficult that they can't keep up. That's also why playing up some is great, but excessive playing up leads to players not knowing what it's like to have time on the ball and any ability to dominate ever.

3. WS took a chance on some players - as all truly developmental clubs should. This is where the rubber meets the road on talent identification vs talent selection. A lot of clubs claim to identify talent, but they are simply selecting it. Talent selection is simple; talent identification though, that takes real skill. FCV is the classic talent selector, and we hear them here on the board all the time, boasting about their results as proof.

Talent identification though requires a coach to look at the potential of a player - see the higher level technique, tactical abilities, and recognize that even if a player isn't right now having an immediate impact, the ability (when properly developed) is in fact higher than the easier to select "practiced" player who has just been well programmed enough in the earlier years. It takes investment on the part of the club to be willing to give up some instant gratification for the long term of a better player down the road. American soccer is often guilty of selecting talent by looking at current athleticism, speed, size, having a roster of older players, and giving them a lot of minutes to win a game by sheer force. The ECNL was filled with teams like that, and I saw teams win games they shouldn't have based on those very things, even though the team they beat actually had the more skilled, technical players.

WS gave an opportunity to players that may have been overlooked for the wrong reasons. And let's not forget politics plays into all of this. I have seen players make teams - even ECNL teams - because their dad is a coach in either the main club or a feeder club, not because they deserve it.

4. EDP is a great concept, because it gives an opportunity to 04s and 03s that may have developed this year, but still need more time in the program. They may then later be ready to move back into that fast paced environment. CA has formed an entire DP league. I think the concept of a tiered system is more valuable for players. But maybe for now, that's just not on the menu.

You make some good points but as an outsider to the WS program, I cannot tell if the 'playup' tack is the result of philosophy or necessity. Certainly this first year, the 04's that played up on the 03 team were doing so because of necessity. Almost all of those incoming 04's were playing on second or non-elite teams the year prior. I don't know how many 05/06/07 studs came out to tryouts for this coming year, but there might be some of that still going on for a few years.

In any event, all the relative age effect that causes some of the playing up will level out by U16/17 and certainly by U18/19. All those girls who have been playing up will crash into the age ceiling at the U18/19 team as juniors and seniors. If all of the great WS development techniques work, we should be able to see the U16/17 and U18/19 teams begin to dominate in years to come. And the point I'm making is that it most likely won't be due to recruiting, it will have to come from development. This is because of the dynamic of plopping a new DA franchise geographically between a bunch of good clubs without a good feeder system in place.

So in my opinion ultimately results have to come regardless of the development philosophy. My guess is that we will have to wait perhaps 5-7 years to see consistently great U19/19 teams coming out of WS. And of course, if something else on the youth soccer landscape changes to alter the dynamics, this could all change.

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And to add one more thing

When you look at any DA or ECNL roster you will notice that most of the really competitive teams are made up of primarily older girls who benifited from the age change.

For example...look at any 03 ECNL or DA team and count how girls are 8th graders vs 9th graders.

Also, don't forget that a lot of kids were forced to skip and entire year of training due to the age change as well.

That alone sent shockwaves

Have a look at the bryc u15 roster from this current year at the ecnl site if you want to see a club with players playing up. That team is about half 04s playing up. And they are killing it. Doesnt really fit your mold.

Lol...not true.

http://www.eliteclubsnationalleague.com/member-clubs/?view=teamDetails&teamId=1517

13 2022 grads. U15's are mostly 2021 grads. Now you can't tell from this if all 2022 grads are 04's (playups), but certainly the PP's comment that really competitive teams are made up of primarily older girls does not hold here.

3 of those players were 04s. The rest are just on the younger side of the age group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Understood. We are just a bunch of anonymous people on a public forum. I think if you want to get a good look, you should contact WS and let your DD participate in a practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how people who have never even seen a team play think they can check standings and determine the talent level on a team - for this year and for next year. Yes, the 03 and 04 teams had terrible standings - because each had a number of players that weren't DA level. Many will in fact rejoin you in the ECNL, so jokes on you for DA bashing and saying the ECNL is better. And then both age groups also had gks nowhere near that level (one of which also be joining you down in the ECNL too).

So yeah, standings sucked because unlike FCV, WS kept with the development mission - for those players too. They didn't just give all the playing time to the DA level players. They gave them plenty of game time and opportunities to develop and maybe even become DA level. But more importantly, not just take their money and keep them on the bench like FCV did. That was just gross on their part.

I have seen all the age groups of current WS players - at one time or another, and the talent is there for all their teams. I know 05 and younger is the tipping point for the DA, but the 04 and older teams going into next year will be solid DA teams.

Even the atmosphere at WS is energetic and positive.

I was under the impression most of the kids that were cut are staying at WS to play EDP aka DA2. Maybe 1-2 per age group joining ECNL from what I can tell....

WS VA 04 lost 6 total players - 5 are going to ECNL, not sure about the other one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love how people who have never even seen a team play think they can check standings and determine the talent level on a team - for this year and for next year. Yes, the 03 and 04 teams had terrible standings - because each had a number of players that weren't DA level. Many will in fact rejoin you in the ECNL, so jokes on you for DA bashing and saying the ECNL is better. And then both age groups also had gks nowhere near that level (one of which also be joining you down in the ECNL too).

So yeah, standings sucked because unlike FCV, WS kept with the development mission - for those players too. They didn't just give all the playing time to the DA level players. They gave them plenty of game time and opportunities to develop and maybe even become DA level. But more importantly, not just take their money and keep them on the bench like FCV did. That was just gross on their part.

I have seen all the age groups of current WS players - at one time or another, and the talent is there for all their teams. I know 05 and younger is the tipping point for the DA, but the 04 and older teams going into next year will be solid DA teams.

Even the atmosphere at WS is energetic and positive.

I was under the impression most of the kids that were cut are staying at WS to play EDP aka DA2. Maybe 1-2 per age group joining ECNL from what I can tell....

WS VA 04 lost 6 total players - 5 are going to ECNL, not sure about the other one.

WS tried hard to not flat out cut players out of recognition that all the players who came to WS had taken a leap, so those who weren't DA calibre were offered an EDP spot. That being said - and I consider it admirable - especially for 04s on the EDP roster (with one player that I personally think was a mistake), the rest should really consider it a sign that their DDs need to work outside of WS (as all dedicated players normally do) if they want to make it the following year. That DA team is a single year roster and the following year will be a dual aged roster, so they will have to compete for a dual age roster the following year. I do add though that they can also do an additional EDP year if they don't make it, but I'm just saying....they have some work to do.

For the 03s on the EDP team, it may be different because historically on the boys' side of things, being on an EDP type team as the younger age group of a combined age team, many will often remake that team when they are part of the older side of things. I honestly can't say for them one way or the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

An outsider at FCV who has no interest in seeing WS succeed.

Nah, just an outsider who is skeptical of the boisterous claims put forward by WS supporters. You'lll just have to prove it to me.
I would love to see WS succeed at the youth and pro levels and establish a funded academy that pumped out multiple NT players year after year.

Let's be honest. WS is not perfect; I will be the first to admit it. They attracted talent across the board, but there were also others who preferred to stay with the devil they know. So yes, WS did fill in gaps with lesser players. I guess my DD was always a little gutsy so we figured it's not the team you are on, but who you are as a player that matters. This year's younger teams (04s and 03s) had some obvious deficiencies, even while they had some stand outs as well. And while FCV has a track record of negative coaching that no one can deny, WS this past year made some coaching errors as well. The difference to me is they tried to right the ship and the coaching slate for next year will be much better. No one can deny the upgrade across the board. That's an objective truth. Lisa Cole? Spencer Henderson? Wow! If I didn't want to be at WS before, I sure would want to now.

And some more honesty: I know there are several Torres fans on this board. I think he is a solid professional, but I also think he isn't perfect either. He can be the most positive uplifting coach for the right kid, and he can be a jackass to the ones he doesn't like. I've seen it. But even when he's a jackass, it isn't with the screaming a$$ chewings that I have seen other coaches in ECNL and otherwise dish out to their players. He's also wise enough to know how to prioritize and shows flexibility when it matters. Plus, it would have been an easy decision to cut any non-DA players or to be a bare minimalist on time with the lesser talented players. He did none of that. He has my respect.

However, in the end, it's about what matters to you in a club. Want wins? Check out standings and go to the club with the most of them. Want development? Go to a couple of practices, watch how they are run, and let your DD talk to others there about how they feel about the experience. I personally believe WS will surprise you, but you are the one writing the check. I think WS's program is strong enough that it doesn't need me to convince you. Go see, and form your own opinion.

I actually don't think there are many players/parents choosing for wins per se. Virtually all players at FCV are there because they want to play with the best. Wins generally follow. Semantics perhaps. Still, wins and losses are indicators of strength. They are better indicators the higher the level. At U13, not very good, at U18, very good.

My critical comments give the impression I don't like WS. Not true, I am actually impressed with the club. It's when folks throw shade on other clubs without real data, and then folks fluff up their club with hyperbole that cause me to want to calibrate. We know several players at WS, and they are generally happy. I think the development there is likely very good, but the youth soccer dynamics of the area will meter the ability to draw in studs.