Pay-to-Play Sport at Private HS employing club coach - what's normal?
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Anonymous
I doubt football and basketball are clean - it has more to do with where the opportunities to make money are. For football and basketball, the real money is from the shoe companies, boosters, etc. In the non-money sports, the opportunity to make money is from parents. You don't hear about football and basketball because the very nature of those transactions is against NCAA rules. Google "adidas recruiting scandal" and you'll see what goes on in basketball. |
Anonymous
I read this post different. If the SJC basketball or football coach was extorting players and their parents for his personal financial gain, you might understand the school allowing it because of the exposure and other benefits those sports bring to the school. Not saying that would be right but understandable. Doesn’t make sense for a sport like baseball that doesn’t do much for the school. Lots of risk without much upside. |
Anonymous
That won’t happen because the football and basketball players aren’t desperate. Plenty other schools are trying to get them and they just won’t attend SJC. |
Anonymous
But why would baseball players be desperate and willing to put up with it? I don’t follow. |
Anonymous
| None of those baseball players were desperate either. The difference is the basketball and football programs put the players and their futures first while baseball puts the program and the coach’s reputation and ego first. Not to mention his pocketbook. But they do a great sales job to get the boys in there. |
Anonymous
Ok, so those five players weren’t desperate. And they left. Why are all the others desperate? So desperate that they agree to go there and do desperate that they put up with it once they’re there? |
Anonymous
| Previous parent here. We weren’t desperate. We were stuck. We didn’t realize how bad it was until it’s too late. Everyone who goes buys into the system believing it will work out for the best. And a lot about the program is great. But most kids have very few interactions with the head coach until they make varsity their Junior year and by then it’s very difficult to make a change. |
Anonymous
I think the real reason the program is successful is that they recruit more than colleges for baseball. They started recruiting my son when he was in the 5th or 6th grade. They used to come out to local travel tourneys all the time. They also run these recruiting camps in the winter every year. Kind of a joke. They would promise kids the world before attending. For example they would always tell kids they could play multiple sports before they went there, but that changed as soon as you started going there. Before deciding which school to go to, we sat down with several WCAC coaches. All had their strengths and weaknesses, but Coach Gibbs was just odd. Not a very good communicator and very focused on his program and talked about himself a lot. Never asked much about our son. Very strange individual. The coaches from the other schools seemed to be a bit more grounded in reality and showed some level of interest in our son. |
Anonymous
Their shameless recruiting tactics are pathetic. Here is their marketing pitch for the camp they’re holding this weekend for 12 and 13-year-olds. Diamond Skills Baseball and Prep Baseball Report are teaming up to run the top winter camp for 7th and 8th graders on the East Coast. The top 7th and 8th grade players from the region that are serious about playing high school baseball will work on their game inside one of the nation’s finest indoor athletic complexes, the Georgetown Preparatory School’s Center for Athletic Excellence. This enormous 54,000 sq/ft complex allows you to hit, field, throw and run in a state of the art environment. Prep Baseball Report will be there to cover every minute of the action with evaluations, rankings and video of all players. Yup. Rankings and evaluations for 12 and 13-year-olds. In the middle of January. In a cold-weather state. But hey kiddos, don’t bother coming unless you’re one of the TOP 7th and 8th grade players in the region, and SERIOUS about playing high school baseball. Sorry Coach Gibbs, this latest recruiting pitch has totally lost us. Look forward to playing against you in a few years. |
Anonymous
| It is really sad what kids sports have become for some people. And your child can enjoy sports in this area without buying into all that. You just have to opt out of the crazy leagues and schools. |
Anonymous
This clearly benefits no one other than the people making money running the camp and picking out young players they want to recruit. |
Anonymous
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quote=Anonymous]It is really sad what kids sports have become for some people. And your child can enjoy sports in this area without buying into all that. You just have to opt out of the crazy leagues and schools.
This. Parents, this is your responsibility. Lots of pages here blaming coaches who are certainly blameworthy, but it's your responsibility to not give them power over your kids or let them suck the joy out of sports for your kids. Yes, coaches can be instrumental in helping kids play in college, get scholarships, and more, but the good ones do it the right way and it's not hard to tell who the good ones are. Actually it's probably easier to tell who the bad ones are. There are warning signs and the information is out there. Don’t just fall for empty promises and shiny objects. Here is what happens regularly at SJC baseball: - Coach contacts parents to say their little Johnny, a rising 7th grader, is a helluva player. - Coach tells parents SJC is better than anyone at developing baseball players. Just look at all the championship trophies. Tells parents Johnny would make a great Cadet. - Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp (for a $425 fee). - Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp (for a $350 fee). - Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $985 and Johnny isn't even finished with the 7th grade. - Johnny is now a rising 8th grader. Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee). - Coach invites Johnny to schedule a shadow day at St. John's during the Fall of 8th grade. - Johnny shadows at St. John's and he and his parents are given a tour of St. John's and a sales pitch by Coach. Coach shows them all the great facilities, and talks about all the college and professional players and, of course, the championships. - Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter DC Cadets camp again (for a $350 fee). - Coach invites Johnny to attend his winter Diamond Skills/Prep Baseball Report winter junior high prospect camp again (for a $210 fee). For those counting at home, you've now paid him $1,970 and Johnny hasn't even been accepted at St. John's yet. - Johnny gets his acceptance letter from St. John's (phew). - Coach invites Johnny to attend his summer Diamond Skills junior high prospect camp again (for a $425 fee). Query, since you've paid your deposit and enrolled Johnny in the school, is Johnny still a prospect? Doesn't matter - he'll take your $425. - Coach invites Johnny to summer workouts for incoming freshmen and strongly suggests he should attend (for a $100 fee). Johnny's parents have now paid Coach $2,495. Johnny has not yet attended a class at St. John's. - Johnny goes to summer workouts 3 days a week for 2-3 hours a day, for 8 weeks. Johnny learns how to stretch and run properly, but does not play baseball all summer. - Johnny shows up for the first day of school. If Coach thinks Johnny was a good enough stretcher and runner, he requires him to participate in offseason after school workouts with 60+ other kids (for about a $600 fee), and requires him to play on a Fall Diamond Skills team (for an approximately $1,200 fee). If Coach doesn't think Johnny was a good enough stretcher or runner, he just stops contacting him (no emails, phone calls or anything to explain why he can't play baseball at St. John's, and Johnny isn't given an opportunity to try out for the school team in the Spring). - In the fall, Johnny works out with the baseball program every day after school, some days in the morning, and plays in tournaments with Diamond Skills on the weekends. Johnny's Diamond Skills team has around 18 kids on it, and Johnny gets to play about half of every game. Doesn’t matter how the team is doing - Coach decides all playing time ahead of time and doesn’t attend the games/tournaments. If he is a pitcher, Johnny is not allowed to throw more than 30 pitches in a weekend. - Winter rolls around and Johnny keeps working out with the team 6 or 7 days a week. Come January, he works out at 6 am four school days each week, works out after school for 2-3 hours 5 days each week, and works out on Saturdays and Sundays as well. As part of the weekend workouts, Johnny is required to participate in DC Cadets winter camp (for a fee of $175). - In February, the baseball program starts ramping up for a defense of the WCAC championship. It's all baseball all the time from now through the end of the WCAC season in mid-May. - At the end of the high school baseball season, Johnny is told which Diamond Skills weekend travel team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of approximately $1,400), and which weeknight DC Cadets team he has to play on during the summer (for a fee of $700). He also has to work out Monday-Thursday each week for 4-5 hours each day. Fortunately, this is included in the $700 DC Cadets fee. - Johnny gets to rinse and repeat each of the next three years. - Somewhere along the way, Johnny probably loses his love for the game. It may be because at the end of his freshman year, Coach turned him into a "pitcher only" - PO for short. Not just for the high school season, but all year round. There are plenty of other travel teams that would like Johnny to be a full time player in the summer and fall (not just a PO), but that's not allowed -- Johnny has to play for Coach's Diamond Skills program if he wants to play for St. John's. - At some point in his junior or senior year, Johnny gets an offer to play division 3 baseball (no scholarship) or a preferred walk-on spot at a division 1 school (no scholarship and no guaranteed roster spot). If he’s like many other SJC players he decides to go to a JUCO to chase the dream. Johnny asks himself what happened - did he not put in the time? - Johnny graduates from St. John's at the end of his senior year. He's bitter about his high school experience, but at least he's done with St. John's baseball. Costs above are updated to reflect what we understand it costs today, but they’re comparable to when "Johnny" was there. Our son was Johnny. Johnny will never get those four years back. We’re partly to blame, but there wasn’t as much information out there when we made our decisions. Whether your son's name is Johnny or not, I'd recommend choosing a different path. |
Anonymous
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My kids play soccer, but pp what you described is not limited to baseball.
Soccer is not known for being a big HS sport. If you are on a DA team you aren't even allowed to play HS soccer. BUT--everything you wrote mirrors what happens in travel soccer. Parents and kids chasing a dream. A dream sold to them by people that only care about youth sports as a business. My sibling and I played D1 soccer. He was recruited by just about every school in the Nation (top 10 prospect). This was back in the day the college coaches came to our house. He did play professional soccer--in the US. He's the first one to tell me all of this is a complete waste of time for my kids. It has gotten so much worse since we were kids. Youth sports has become a lucrative and legitimate business. Watch some of the Real Sports HBO documentaries on it. It's sickening. What parents and kids give up for something that is never going to materialize. And, soccer in the US isn't even a lucrative sport. The scholarships are next to nothing with the exception of the top 10 players in the Country. Often they are to crappy schools the kid would have been better off just going on academics and be a walk-on soccer player or play University Club soccer. I see friends that have kids in soccer that don't know what a pipe dream it is for their son to get a full-ride. They listen to their coaches and continue to fly up and down the East Coast for games and empty their pockets. The kids and family are giving up so much every single weekend. The kid becomes burned out before he even gets to college. I agree what SJC did was sickening. It is a story playing out all around the US. SPORTS NEED TO BE GIVEN BACK TO THE KIDS. They are no longer teaching value and fun in sports---all the reason anyone should play sports in the first place. |
Anonymous
I think we all agree that the pay-to-play landscape that exists for most youth sports s*cks, but what you are talking about is nothing compared to what the STJ baseball coach is doing. And if you go to the thread re WCAC baseball, you get a better picture of how the coach is not only extorting families, but apparently completely killing kids’ chances of being recruited to D1 schools. And I’ll add that soccer and baseball scholarships are not a pipe dream at all for good players in the mid-Atlantic—I know scores of kids who are playing or played at great schools with significant scholarships over the past few years, not to mention the admissions boost they received due to their sport. You sound like you are hanging out with a crowd of uninformed people who don’t know much about recruiting and don’t value education. Your experience is by no means universal on that front. To “Johnny’s” dad and the posters with kids currently stuck in the baseball program, I am so very sorry. Is there no one at the school or among the alums with the interest and power to make changes? I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but alums at Bullis rallied to force out some lacrosse coaches over the last couple of years. There is a long thread on DCUM about it. |
Anonymous
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That sucks for those kids.
I agree with baseball scholarships, not soccer. Soccer is a sport with no huge multi-million professional contracts in the US. It is not filling stadiums and arenas like college football and basketball, there is no March Madness, huge Bowl games, etc. There is ZERO talk of college soccer players getting paid while attending college, like basketball/football. People don't even watch MLS, the male US professional soccer league. It's worse for men than women. Women soccer players are not competing with big sports like Football for college $. A college gets only 9 total full ride scholarships in their male soccer program at any one time, not each incoming year. This means if you have a few players on a full-ride and the rest of the $ divvied up on the roster, there is little left to offer incoming players. A roster is typically 22 players. The $ does not become available until somebody holding the scholarship graduates and frees up the $. You are also competing with Foreign International soccer players coming to the US for college soccer which are filling out a lot of college rosters. More odds stacked against you as those players are often a much higher caliber then here in the States. You might have the one or two kids in the area that get that big soccer pay out, but in reality---and look at the stats, it's not likely. And, the parents are usually coming forth with how much $ that scholarship entailed. It often isn't anywhere close to a full-ride. As far as a hook, okay, the kid might get into a college he might not have without playing soccer if he comes in and pays his own way. If your kids is not bright, not a great student, then that definitely may be worth it. For really bright kids, a lesser deal. If you add up what a parent pays for a kid's youth soccer career from 5-18, plane fare, hotels, team fees, uniforms, camps, private training, etc. It's a lot more than they would ever expect to get back. So--parents are not being given reality in the kids' young years. Talk to new players starting out and the parents are gunning for that soccer scholarship not knowing how futile it is. If the kid loves the sport and is an excellent player, he will excel. But, there needs to be reality from the clubs and trainers about what the future looks like. |