The Dad Privilege Checklist

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood that post. He’s not saying they sweep the floors twice a month because they don’t ever get anything on the floors. He’s saying they’re fine with whatever accumulates on the floors over a two week time period and apparently no one has been hospitalized over it yet.

Right and I don't believe him because I don't believe a household with multiple kids and a pet would be able to get away with sweeping twice every 30 days without it becoming disgusting. Even my own husband, who has very low standards for cleaning, will notice the floor is getting gross if we go one full week without sweeping or vacuuming, and break out the broom to at least clean up under the dining table. And this is very much a man who does not "see dirt" and did not even own a vacuum cleaner before living with me. If even he will be driven to grab a broom after 7 days, I just don't buy the PPs story.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

You are confused. The PP wants to make sure that there is food to eat on a day when they will have house guests arriving and may not have time to cook. It's not about not wanting to cook for her MIL, it's about not having to be in charge of making sure that the family has food when it needs food, a planning responsibility that many men might not bother with.

Just like dad might drop the kids off at camp every day, but mom might be the one to start thinking about camp in December, knowing many camps fill in January, and start doing research and pricing things out, then start looking at the school calendar and also planning any travel so they know what weeks they need camp for (all while her DH is like "why are you asking about this now? that's months away? can't we plan this later?") and then making sure she signs up when camps go up so they don't get locked out, and filling out all the paperwork for the camps and getting any needed supplies as they approach. But all you might see is the dad dropping the kids off and think "wow, what an involved dad, he's definitely doing 50%. Maybe more -- I don't see their mom dropping these kids off. Boy is she lucky to have a partner who just totally handles camp for her." This is what people are talking about when they talk about the invisible labor of parenting that disproportionately falls on women.

I would LOVE to be the partner who simply gets to weight in on whether my mother would prefer lasagna or ordering pizza when she arrives next week (while my partner figures out the logistics of either and bothers to think about it at all) or the partner who drops off my kids at camp every day wearing appropriate clothes and sunscreen and with the requisite materials (while my partner figures out literally ever aspect of camp logistics months in advance and spends weeks making sure we have everything we need and the bill is paid and all the paperwork is filled out so that I can just hug my kids and look like a hero while doing almost nothing). That gig sounds great.

DP, but my wife has definitely done camp drop off but she's never researched, booked, or submitted a camp form in her life. Usually, I do drop off, but sometimes she does. She's taken kids to dentist appointments I scheduled, but I don't think she's scheduled more than a handful of doctors/dentist appointments. Not knowing goes both ways.

And honestly if you gave me the choice between doing camp forms and signups and doing drop off, I'd pick the one I can do from my desk at work without a second thought. Commuting out of my way to do drop off is more annoying than signups, although neither are especially onerous tasks.

Ok, that's your family. It's #NotAllMen.

If most families worked the way yours did, I bet we'd see a lot less commentary on unequal division of labor in marriages.

Not sure why the people with good, equal marriages are so determined to tell everyone who doesn't have an equal or fair marriage on this thread that they are simply wrong about their own experience. After all if YOU book all your kids dentist appointments and enroll them in camp, then there is simply no way that MY husband has literally never done either of those things, ever.

It's just odd that you would feel so certain that I am wrong about my lived experience. I bet if I told you my husband absolutely does 50% of everything you'd believe that. So why won't you believe when I tell the truth, which is that he's barely eking out 20%?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood that post. He’s not saying they sweep the floors twice a month because they don’t ever get anything on the floors. He’s saying they’re fine with whatever accumulates on the floors over a two week time period and apparently no one has been hospitalized over it yet.

Right and I don't believe him because I don't believe a household with multiple kids and a pet would be able to get away with sweeping twice every 30 days without it becoming disgusting. Even my own husband, who has very low standards for cleaning, will notice the floor is getting gross if we go one full week without sweeping or vacuuming, and break out the broom to at least clean up under the dining table. And this is very much a man who does not "see dirt" and did not even own a vacuum cleaner before living with me. If even he will be driven to grab a broom after 7 days, I just don't buy the PPs story.

You're welcome not to believe me; I don't really care. I know how often I sweep and I know how often there's resentment in my house about chores, which is much less than twice a month. Unhappy people often find the lives of happy people hard to fathom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

You are confused. The PP wants to make sure that there is food to eat on a day when they will have house guests arriving and may not have time to cook. It's not about not wanting to cook for her MIL, it's about not having to be in charge of making sure that the family has food when it needs food, a planning responsibility that many men might not bother with.

Just like dad might drop the kids off at camp every day, but mom might be the one to start thinking about camp in December, knowing many camps fill in January, and start doing research and pricing things out, then start looking at the school calendar and also planning any travel so they know what weeks they need camp for (all while her DH is like "why are you asking about this now? that's months away? can't we plan this later?") and then making sure she signs up when camps go up so they don't get locked out, and filling out all the paperwork for the camps and getting any needed supplies as they approach. But all you might see is the dad dropping the kids off and think "wow, what an involved dad, he's definitely doing 50%. Maybe more -- I don't see their mom dropping these kids off. Boy is she lucky to have a partner who just totally handles camp for her." This is what people are talking about when they talk about the invisible labor of parenting that disproportionately falls on women.

I would LOVE to be the partner who simply gets to weight in on whether my mother would prefer lasagna or ordering pizza when she arrives next week (while my partner figures out the logistics of either and bothers to think about it at all) or the partner who drops off my kids at camp every day wearing appropriate clothes and sunscreen and with the requisite materials (while my partner figures out literally ever aspect of camp logistics months in advance and spends weeks making sure we have everything we need and the bill is paid and all the paperwork is filled out so that I can just hug my kids and look like a hero while doing almost nothing). That gig sounds great.

DP, but my wife has definitely done camp drop off but she's never researched, booked, or submitted a camp form in her life. Usually, I do drop off, but sometimes she does. She's taken kids to dentist appointments I scheduled, but I don't think she's scheduled more than a handful of doctors/dentist appointments. Not knowing goes both ways.

And honestly if you gave me the choice between doing camp forms and signups and doing drop off, I'd pick the one I can do from my desk at work without a second thought. Commuting out of my way to do drop off is more annoying than signups, although neither are especially onerous tasks.

Ok, that's your family. It's #NotAllMen.

If most families worked the way yours did, I bet we'd see a lot less commentary on unequal division of labor in marriages.

Not sure why the people with good, equal marriages are so determined to tell everyone who doesn't have an equal or fair marriage on this thread that they are simply wrong about their own experience. After all if YOU book all your kids dentist appointments and enroll them in camp, then there is simply no way that MY husband has literally never done either of those things, ever.

It's just odd that you would feel so certain that I am wrong about my lived experience. I bet if I told you my husband absolutely does 50% of everything you'd believe that. So why won't you believe when I tell the truth, which is that he's barely eking out 20%?

I made no comments on your family. I made a comment on what you are able to observe about other people's families. You should learn to read more carefully.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out I don't like the dirty floors either? This is so circular. If someone says "my husband never cleans the floors, even when they are disgusting," your response is that their standards for clean floors are too high and no one cares that much. If someone else says "actually my kids really hate it when the floors are covered in dirt and it attracts ants and other issues," then the argument is that the kids should clean the floors. If someone points out that not all kids are old enough to clean floors, well then we're back to having expectations of cleanliness that are too high.

Look if you want to live in a freaking pig pen with cat litter and cracker crumbs and bits of dried mud and pet hair on the floor all the time, be my guest. Most people do not, and that's not some OCD standard, it's a normal attitude about cleanliness and hygiene. Given that keeping floors reasonably clean (not spotless, just not covered in detritus at all times) is generally going to require sweeping/vacuuming once or twice a week, then having a husband who refuses to ever sweep or vacuum actually absolutely creates a ton of labor for the wife in that marriage, labor he and the children benefit from. It is unequal.

I look forward to Roomba PP coming back to explain that the problem is not a DH who refuses to pull his weight, but actually a wife who is too cheap to buy a robot to do her husband's basic cleaning for him, like a smart woman would.

[Anonymous]

My husband does not do 50% or even close to it. He's not a terrible person but he often defaults to doing nothing, procrastinating, or claiming he can't do things that are child or household related because he doesn't know how, or work is busy right now (I also work, I also get busy).

Some of DH's reluctance to do things absolutely comes from a sense of privilege. He considers certain activities feminine (or at least not masculine) and won't do them. A lot of cleaning activities fall in this category. It's frustrating because he absolutely agrees these activities must be done, but he doesn't like to do them and won't. He is always grateful when I do them. He knows some of them are simply required for basic hygiene. But he will not do them. It is very frustrating. I would love to simply outsource cleaning more often to take the burden off of me but we can't presently afford that without really cutting back somewhere else. So I do like 90% of the cleaning. It's hard and absolutely leads to resentment. We have conversations about it periodically, where I say explicitly that I sometimes feel like I am the family maid or housekeeper (we have small children so this feeling is exacerbated because I am quite literally cleaning up after everyone as I am the only family member who cleans at all). I also hate the example this sets for our kids. Already our oldest has said things like "mommies like to clean" or "we'll get out of the way so mommy can clean" and I HATE IT.

DH also presumes his job is more important than mine even though we make the same amount. When we had kids, we both talked about seeking out more flexility in our jobs, but only I followed through. This is also a source of resentment. I think he likes the idea of being a full parenting partner but when push comes to shove, he is afraid of the judgment of other men when he prioritizes his family over work. He says it's easier for me but it's not -- I get tons of pushback and there has been resentment at times when I've made arrangements to shift my schedule for daycare pickup or taken time off for a sick kid. I absolutely pay a professional price for being the default parent. When I'm also the only one cleaning, this really compounds the feeling that I am alone in making our family work while he benefits from it.

I don't think my situation is that unusual. I'm sure there are people with more equal marriages, but when I talk to friends about my frustrations, they share many of them. I even have friends who are absolutely the breadwinners in their families but still don't feel their husbands do as much as they do with the kids or maintaining the house. These are very common problems.

If my DH were to read this, he'd have a lot of excuses for why things are the way they are. Some of them would align with comments on the thread. But he would not claim that things are 50/50. In fact we recently had an argument about this and he said, "I feel like you won't be happy until we are splitting childcare and household duties 50/50." And I said yes, that sounds right, and he threw up his hands like this was an impossible expectation. Again, we both work FT.

Dad privilege is absolutely real. If I were to really get fed up and divorce him, he'd still have it. Society expects less from men when it comes to kids and the home. And society expects women to fill in the gap without complaint. Even if your specific marriage is different, I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

These dynamics in my marriage play out in millions of marriages in this country all the time. People who are truly 50/50 are the exception, not the rule. There is still a lot of work to be done in changing the expectations of others, the attitudes of men, etc. This is so obvious

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out I don't like the dirty floors either? This is so circular. If someone says "my husband never cleans the floors, even when they are disgusting," your response is that their standards for clean floors are too high and no one cares that much. If someone else says "actually my kids really hate it when the floors are covered in dirt and it attracts ants and other issues," then the argument is that the kids should clean the floors. If someone points out that not all kids are old enough to clean floors, well then we're back to having expectations of cleanliness that are too high.

Look if you want to live in a freaking pig pen with cat litter and cracker crumbs and bits of dried mud and pet hair on the floor all the time, be my guest. Most people do not, and that's not some OCD standard, it's a normal attitude about cleanliness and hygiene. Given that keeping floors reasonably clean (not spotless, just not covered in detritus at all times) is generally going to require sweeping/vacuuming once or twice a week, then having a husband who refuses to ever sweep or vacuum actually absolutely creates a ton of labor for the wife in that marriage, labor he and the children benefit from. It is unequal.

I look forward to Roomba PP coming back to explain that the problem is not a DH who refuses to pull his weight, but actually a wife who is too cheap to buy a robot to do her husband's basic cleaning for him, like a smart woman would.

Happy to help!

The main problem is once again your refusal to accept that your opinion is not a universal truth. If your husband doesn’t feel compelled to sweep or vacuum and is not actually demanding that YOU sweep or vacuum, then it means that the state of the floors has not actually crossed HIS “disgusting” threshold, regardless of how YOU feel about it. If HE was disgusted by the floors he would deal with the floors (or actively request or order you to deal with them which is an entirely separate problem not discussed thus far in this thread).

A secondary problem is that you contradict yourself. First the roomba is no good as a compromise solution because it doesn’t do a good enough job, but now you’re claiming you don’t actually require spotless floors, just floors reasonably free of detritus. I have two roombas and they keep the floors in a general state of “eh, they’re fine” in between more active vacuuming which happens 1) whenever I feel like vacuuming, or 2) when I think “eww these floors are gross! I need to vacuum them immediately!”

And I agree that someone like you and someone like me would not get along as roommates, but once again, that doesn’t mean you’re right/good/hardworking and I am wrong/bad/lazy, it simply means we have, once again, different standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree a lot of this list is super condescending but there’s some real truth to it. In my marriage, and the marriage of most of my friends the saying “he does his best and I do the rest” is 100 percent the case. It’s not that the dads don’t do anything, it’s that they view virtually everything as optional or extra credit. If my husband gets busy at work or wants to travel, he does that. If one of our kids has extra needs, that’s a problem mom will solve regardless of whether she also works or what else she has going on. My husband is not a bad guy and will laugh about both our moms raving how wonderful he is for taking a child to a physical (scheduled by mom, Who is at work and needs to be there because she handled the sick days last week because dad “can’t” reschedule any meetings) but he is still totally guilty of kicking anything hard or inconvenient to me. He knows that I will always always always find a way to do the things I think are important for the kids so he can just say “I can’t” guilt free.

Also this one reminded me of DCUM:
If I do a task incorrectly, people will tell my partner to praise me for trying.

Totally agree. "He does his best and I do the rest" is absolutely how my marriage and those of pretty much all my friends work. "His best" can vary a bit, but I only know one marriage where I genuinely think the dad is the primary parent and is doing "the rest" and he's a SAHD and his wife is an executive and they have one kid.

I think this is the dirty secret of most dual income couples. It looks pretty equal from the outside -- both partners work, they say the right things, dad is visibly doing stuff like taking kids to activities, cooking, seems engaged. But if you open things up and really look at what is happening, dad is taking kids to activities that mom (who also works) researched, arranged, and provided dad with the schedule for. Dad is cooking but so is mom, and mom is also thinking a week ahead to when her MIL is in town and suggesting they make and freeze an extra casserole so they have a quick dinner for the night she arrives. Mom doesn't always seem engaged, because she's exhausted and has a laundry list of things in her head to keep track of (including laundry).

But the veneer of "things are pretty equal!" is there because it's easier on everyone's ego and it keeps the ship afloat. You could nag and nitpick dad to death but he's never, ever going to do as much as mom. Ever. If you don't want to ruin your marriage and get a divorce, which most of us don't, you just accept the inequity and move on. But it's unequal. Very, very unequal.

“I’m oppressed because DH doesn’t think a week ahead to freeze a casserole for MIL” isn’t quite the own you think it is. That is you concerned about appearances and looking on top of things lest MIL judge you.

+1

If you don't want to make food for your MIL's visit, just..don't make food for your MIL's visit. What is she going to do, have you arrested?

It’s a real d*ck move not to even attempt to host your own mother via (checks notes) providing a hot meal - and moreover to call your wife “crazy” for wanting to do so. y’all are being either truly dysfunctional or totally dishonest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Find it here: https://zawn.substack.com/p/the-dad-privilege-checklist

Please read the checklist and return for a conversation about it. I want to hear from others about their own experiences with coparenting their children with the children's dad.

Women who approach coparenting like this list (keeping score) will 💯 be unhappy and resentful. Not because they do more than their husband but because they are keeping score of every darn thing. Essentially, looking to create drama.

Yes, women should just stfu and do all the work.

Instead of counting who does what, how would it look if you counted who has more downtime. Doing entertainment and self care stuff, like scrolling, gym, tv, bathroom alone, etc.

I'm suspecting many on this thread are just underestimating how long the things dh does should take. And not noticing important tasks. It's kind of human nature to remember our own work more and not notice others' work.

given that time-use studies consistently show women have less leisure time, I feel pretty confident that those of us saying we have less leisure time can be trusted.

Time use studies also show that men and women spend about the same amount of time in what I think most of us would consider "work" (paid work, childcare, and housework). The edge is actually slightly for men there. The extra leisure time men take isn't coming out of that combination, but no one seems to want to address that. My source here is this analysis of the American Time Use Study: https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2013/03/14/chapter-6-time-in-work-and-leisure-patterns-by-gender-and-family-structure/ It shows that overall, men do .4 hours more of "work" per week, while in households with children, the gap is greater, with men doing about 2 hours more of "work" per week.

The most recent data I've seen (here: https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2023/time-spent-in-leisure-and-sports-activities-2022.htm) shows men taking roughly an extra 40 minutes a day in leisure. The gap in leisure time is probably smaller in households with children, in the Pew analysis from 2013 it was, then it was 2 hours per week of extra leisure time for men in households with children so roughly 16 minutes per day. Some of that seemingly comes out of sleep; women sleep an average of 14 minutes longer a day then men. I haven't dug into the data to see where the other discrepancies are, but I think the time use data actually shows men and women "work" equal amounts, men just take more for leisure too.

here’s another one showing that single mothers do LESS domestic work than married women: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6560646/

the researchers observe that when mothers live with other adults (not a husband/boyfriend) their domestic labor goes down.

“ Thus, although partnered mothers theoretically can share some household labor with their partners, our findings showed that living with a heterosexual male partner was associated with mothers’ greater time spent on housework, consistent with the gender perspective”

conclusion: dads drag moms down.

Men create more housework. And because they are less accustomed to DOING housework, they don't know how to live in a way that minimizes it. My husband will clomp through the house with muddy boots on, wander down hallways and through rooms while eating crackers, toss mail onto tables such that it falls behind the table, bang a spoon on the side of a pot so flecks of sauce get on the wall and cabinets, and so forth. But he never vacuums or mops, never fishes the mail out from against the wall, never wipes down the cabinets or the backsplash. If I ask him to take more care with these behaviors so less mess is made, he accuses me of being controlling. If I say "okay, then I need you to vacuum and mop and wipe things down," he complains my cleaning standards are too high. If I want to live in a house where I can walk through a room barefoot without getting bits of dirt and food on my feet, or where we don't have food on the walls of our kitchen, I have to do it myself.

This was really brought home during Covid. Men are so hard on homes. Having my DH home all the time created cleaning issues that had never existed before. The floor under his workspace in the living room became worn and dirty very quickly and I started having to mop it and treat the wood, even though I work in the same room and have never had to do this before. More dishes, more spills, more random items left all over the house. The bathroom gets gross faster (and I don't mean it just gets dirtier -- I mean it get's gross).

I have been cleaning up after myself, with normal hygiene standards (as opposed to "single guy in his 20s" hygiene standards) my whole life, so I know how to live more lightly and make less work for myself. Men don't get this. Men are generally as messy if not more so than children and pets, and one reason married women spend more time cleaning is that they are cleaning up after their husbands, even before kids enter the picture.

It’s 2024. Go get yourself a roomba or two. Or is the “mental load” of programming it one time and taking 30 seconds a day to empty the filter too much for you?

It's 2024. A man should know how to use a vacuum cleaner by now.

But in this scenario the man doesn’t care about being able to walk through the house barefoot or eat off the floors. The woman does. So vacuum every day and constantly p!$$ and moan about it, or maybe get a roomba and have your dirt free floors with practically zero effort on your part.

How’s the saying go? Work smarter, not harder?

Yes, because the husband who refuses to vacuum and claims he does not "see" all the dirt and crumbs he tracks through the house is also definitely going to be cool with buying a super expensive robot vacuum to solve something he doesn't even view as a problem [because the solution to the problem for hims is for his wife to provide free labor to their family to fix it].

It's like when women complain about doing way more childcare than their husbands and people say "just get a nanny." The people who need a solution the most are not going to benefit from these suggestions to pay for expensive outsourcing of these tasks. Their husbands don't value this work when their wives do it, they aren't going to want to pay someone else to do it either. The issue is men who simply do not value childcare or housework, plus think to the degree these tasks have value, they should be performed by wives and mothers without complaint.

Aww, poor little victim pretending she can’t set aside $350 to make her own life better.

PP ask yourself why you have so much anger towards the pp? You know what they say about defensive people? We are hitting too close to the truth. Again why should it only be up to the wife to come up with $350 to "make HER life better?" A clean house helps everyone!

The bolded is the crux of the argument, actually. You are either incapable of understanding or too stubborn to accept that some people truly DO.NOT.CARE if there’s some dirt on the floor or if the robot vacuum missed a spot (after all, it’ll get that spot next time… or maybe it won’t… I don’t really care). Or any other matters relating to a clean house, healthy cooking, curated/limited screen time, social engagements, etc. It’s not that they EXPECT you to do these things for them, they just don’t care if these things get done or not. Many people truly do not even notice or think about half of the complaints in this thread.

Your standards are not the CORRECT standards… they are simply YOUR standards. And while I am sure that your standards are indeed higher and that everyone in your life would be better off if they lived up to them, the sad truth is that as long as they aren’t doing anything illegal, no adult is required to live by any standards but their own. In other words, you are not the boss. You don’t get to make the rules and then demand that your spouse follow them. The sooner you can accept that reality, the happier you will be.

This is Dad Privilege, right here. When children are involved you don’t get to be that lazy and negligent. You just don’t. You can live in filth and isolation if you’re the only one it impacts. Your children cannot. And you are lying too because you KNOW it’s not good for the kids - but you also know your wife will take care of it. Dad Privilege.

Now going on to claim your wife is a crazy harridan for having child rearing and domestic standards somewhere above “not illegal” - that’s something beyond Dad Privilege headed towards pathology.

Everything that I have bolded in your post boils down to your own standards and opinions. There is no universal standard for filth, isolation, laziness, negligence, and “what’s good for the kids”. All of those things exist on a spectrum. Just as hoarding exists at one end of a spectrum and minimalism exists at the other end. You might like less clutter than your spouse, but that doesn’t mean that you’re right and he’s wrong.

Your main problem is you can’t get wrap your brain around the fact that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Oh just stop. There actually ARE basic, minimal standards for raising children and having a minimally functioning homelife that provides them with social connections. If you deny this you’re either delusional or expecting your wife to do them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood that post. He’s not saying they sweep the floors twice a month because they don’t ever get anything on the floors. He’s saying they’re fine with whatever accumulates on the floors over a two week time period and apparently no one has been hospitalized over it yet.

My guess is they have cleaners (that his wife manages).

Having babies/toddlers crawl around on floors (with pets!) that are swept every 2 weeks is gross, sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out I don't like the dirty floors either? This is so circular. If someone says "my husband never cleans the floors, even when they are disgusting," your response is that their standards for clean floors are too high and no one cares that much. If someone else says "actually my kids really hate it when the floors are covered in dirt and it attracts ants and other issues," then the argument is that the kids should clean the floors. If someone points out that not all kids are old enough to clean floors, well then we're back to having expectations of cleanliness that are too high.

Look if you want to live in a freaking pig pen with cat litter and cracker crumbs and bits of dried mud and pet hair on the floor all the time, be my guest. Most people do not, and that's not some OCD standard, it's a normal attitude about cleanliness and hygiene. Given that keeping floors reasonably clean (not spotless, just not covered in detritus at all times) is generally going to require sweeping/vacuuming once or twice a week, then having a husband who refuses to ever sweep or vacuum actually absolutely creates a ton of labor for the wife in that marriage, labor he and the children benefit from. It is unequal.

I look forward to Roomba PP coming back to explain that the problem is not a DH who refuses to pull his weight, but actually a wife who is too cheap to buy a robot to do her husband's basic cleaning for him, like a smart woman would.

Happy to help!

The main problem is once again your refusal to accept that your opinion is not a universal truth. If your husband doesn’t feel compelled to sweep or vacuum and is not actually demanding that YOU sweep or vacuum, then it means that the state of the floors has not actually crossed HIS “disgusting” threshold, regardless of how YOU feel about it. If HE was disgusted by the floors he would deal with the floors (or actively request or order you to deal with them which is an entirely separate problem not discussed thus far in this thread).

A secondary problem is that you contradict yourself. First the roomba is no good as a compromise solution because it doesn’t do a good enough job, but now you’re claiming you don’t actually require spotless floors, just floors reasonably free of detritus. I have two roombas and they keep the floors in a general state of “eh, they’re fine” in between more active vacuuming which happens 1) whenever I feel like vacuuming, or 2) when I think “eww these floors are gross! I need to vacuum them immediately!”

And I agree that someone like you and someone like me would not get along as roommates, but once again, that doesn’t mean you’re right/good/hardworking and I am wrong/bad/lazy, it simply means we have, once again, different standards.

dude, never get married, lol. what a loser. sweep your d*mn floor!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out I don't like the dirty floors either? This is so circular. If someone says "my husband never cleans the floors, even when they are disgusting," your response is that their standards for clean floors are too high and no one cares that much. If someone else says "actually my kids really hate it when the floors are covered in dirt and it attracts ants and other issues," then the argument is that the kids should clean the floors. If someone points out that not all kids are old enough to clean floors, well then we're back to having expectations of cleanliness that are too high.

Look if you want to live in a freaking pig pen with cat litter and cracker crumbs and bits of dried mud and pet hair on the floor all the time, be my guest. Most people do not, and that's not some OCD standard, it's a normal attitude about cleanliness and hygiene. Given that keeping floors reasonably clean (not spotless, just not covered in detritus at all times) is generally going to require sweeping/vacuuming once or twice a week, then having a husband who refuses to ever sweep or vacuum actually absolutely creates a ton of labor for the wife in that marriage, labor he and the children benefit from. It is unequal.

I look forward to Roomba PP coming back to explain that the problem is not a DH who refuses to pull his weight, but actually a wife who is too cheap to buy a robot to do her husband's basic cleaning for him, like a smart woman would.

Happy to help!

The main problem is once again your refusal to accept that your opinion is not a universal truth. If your husband doesn’t feel compelled to sweep or vacuum and is not actually demanding that YOU sweep or vacuum, then it means that the state of the floors has not actually crossed HIS “disgusting” threshold, regardless of how YOU feel about it. If HE was disgusted by the floors he would deal with the floors (or actively request or order you to deal with them which is an entirely separate problem not discussed thus far in this thread).

A secondary problem is that you contradict yourself. First the roomba is no good as a compromise solution because it doesn’t do a good enough job, but now you’re claiming you don’t actually require spotless floors, just floors reasonably free of detritus. I have two roombas and they keep the floors in a general state of “eh, they’re fine” in between more active vacuuming which happens 1) whenever I feel like vacuuming, or 2) when I think “eww these floors are gross! I need to vacuum them immediately!”

And I agree that someone like you and someone like me would not get along as roommates, but once again, that doesn’t mean you’re right/good/hardworking and I am wrong/bad/lazy, it simply means we have, once again, different standards.

You sound like an AWFUL partner (much less roommate).

If you are married, you cannot think about stuff as needing "cross your threshold" for mattering, and if it doesn't, you get to not care about it at all. This is a great recipe for divorce.

Here is a bunch of stuff I don't really care about but I do or make a priority because it is very important to my spouse: having a dog, prioritizing food experiences on vacation, living in the specific neighborhood where we live, planning around a sport for part of the year because it's important to my spouse, visiting or spending literally any time with his brother (who I honestly just dislike), Thanksgiving (his favorite holiday), I could go on. I don't merely tolerate the fact that these things matter to him. I actively participate in them, at least to some degree, because I love him an dit matters to him.

If it is important to your spouse that the floors be free of detritus most of the time, you have options. You can help keep it clean, you can be more careful about getting it dirty, you can say "hey let's buy a Roomba -- $350 is worth you not hating to walk across the floors in our home!" Or suggest hiring a housecleaner. Whatever. But no, you do not get to say "I'm sorry, clean floors simply do not cross MY threshold for importance and therefore even though it is clearly something that bothers you a lot, I will do exactly nothing and expect you to resolve this issue for yourself even though I actively contribute to the problem by living here and freaking loving Ritz crackers."

Unless you WANT to get divorced? Or maybe you want to stay married but you're hoping that if you can make yourself enough of an a$$hole, your spouse will stop bothering you for sex. I don't know. You do you, man.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

The day one of my kids complains about the floors being swept is that day is the day they get a new chore. I wonder if you'd feel less harried if you were in charge of your kids and not the other way around?

I'm happy to have my 5 yr old sweep the floor but also that is not a good way to get floors clean. And they are too small for the vacuum.

You're missing the larger point which that your kids need to learn not to complain to you. If I'd told my mom to sweep, she would even have been able to spank me she'd be laughing so hard.

Did you miss the part where I pointed out I don't like the dirty floors either? This is so circular. If someone says "my husband never cleans the floors, even when they are disgusting," your response is that their standards for clean floors are too high and no one cares that much. If someone else says "actually my kids really hate it when the floors are covered in dirt and it attracts ants and other issues," then the argument is that the kids should clean the floors. If someone points out that not all kids are old enough to clean floors, well then we're back to having expectations of cleanliness that are too high.

Look if you want to live in a freaking pig pen with cat litter and cracker crumbs and bits of dried mud and pet hair on the floor all the time, be my guest. Most people do not, and that's not some OCD standard, it's a normal attitude about cleanliness and hygiene. Given that keeping floors reasonably clean (not spotless, just not covered in detritus at all times) is generally going to require sweeping/vacuuming once or twice a week, then having a husband who refuses to ever sweep or vacuum actually absolutely creates a ton of labor for the wife in that marriage, labor he and the children benefit from. It is unequal.

I look forward to Roomba PP coming back to explain that the problem is not a DH who refuses to pull his weight, but actually a wife who is too cheap to buy a robot to do her husband's basic cleaning for him, like a smart woman would.

Happy to help!

The main problem is once again your refusal to accept that your opinion is not a universal truth. If your husband doesn’t feel compelled to sweep or vacuum and is not actually demanding that YOU sweep or vacuum, then it means that the state of the floors has not actually crossed HIS “disgusting” threshold, regardless of how YOU feel about it. If HE was disgusted by the floors he would deal with the floors (or actively request or order you to deal with them which is an entirely separate problem not discussed thus far in this thread).

A secondary problem is that you contradict yourself. First the roomba is no good as a compromise solution because it doesn’t do a good enough job, but now you’re claiming you don’t actually require spotless floors, just floors reasonably free of detritus. I have two roombas and they keep the floors in a general state of “eh, they’re fine” in between more active vacuuming which happens 1) whenever I feel like vacuuming, or 2) when I think “eww these floors are gross! I need to vacuum them immediately!”

And I agree that someone like you and someone like me would not get along as roommates, but once again, that doesn’t mean you’re right/good/hardworking and I am wrong/bad/lazy, it simply means we have, once again, different standards.

dude, never get married, lol. what a loser. sweep your d*mn floor!

I reflexively started looking for a divorce lawyer upon reaching the phrase "A secondary problem is that you contradict yourself..." and I'm not even married to this loser. Imagine going to these lengths to justify not taking 2 minutes to grab a broom and sweep up the kitchen.

Someone call the Whole Man Removal service for a clean up, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Regarding floors, I will note here that when our floors go unswept or vacuumed for a few days, our kids will complain. They run around the house barefoot and do not enjoy stepping on crumbs, dirt, and tracked cat litter. Nor do I.

The PP (with a cat!) who claims they sweep twice a month and it's fine must have the tidiest family in the world. We don't wear shoes in the house and restrict eating to the kitchen and dining room and we still wind up with stuff on the floors after a few days. I think once a week is bare minimum and that's not to maintain perfect cleanliness or anything, just to ensure we don't attract bugs or ruin the floors.

I think you fundamentally misunderstood that post. He’s not saying they sweep the floors twice a month because they don’t ever get anything on the floors. He’s saying they’re fine with whatever accumulates on the floors over a two week time period and apparently no one has been hospitalized over it yet.

My guess is they have cleaners (that his wife manages).

Having babies/toddlers crawl around on floors (with pets!) that are swept every 2 weeks is gross, sorry.

Literally revolting. Those kids would have eaten several whole cats worth of cat hair by now.