If things get worse for Jewish people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering how bad it's going to get. I live in an area where a lot of people have safe rooms, but we don't have one. We aren't Jewish but have Jewish friends. I'm curious if people are constructing safe rooms and otherwise preparing for the worst.

Where do you live where people have safe rooms?

It's just an affluent area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering how bad it's going to get. I live in an area where a lot of people have safe rooms, but we don't have one. We aren't Jewish but have Jewish friends. I'm curious if people are constructing safe rooms and otherwise preparing for the worst.

Where do you live where people have safe rooms?

It's just an affluent area.

I've lived in affluent areas. A lot of us on dcum have.

I've never heard of anyone having a safe room.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Have you all seen what is happening to Jewish students at Cornell tonight?[/quote]

If you would’ve told me 4 years ago that evangelical Trump voters would be the biggest ally of our community in 2023 I would’ve called you insane (among other things). And yet here we are. [/quote]

They are most definitely not our allies. Christian nationalists are only invested in Jews as fodder for their apocalypse fantasies.[/quote]


That’s not what I’m seeing. [/quote]

Because maybe you're not.[/quote]

I don't know what you're talking about but it's true Republican voters are more pro Israel than Democratic voters and recent polling reconfirms this. I know in some people's book all Republicans are evangelical Christians and all evangelical Christians want Jews to return to Israel so the Bible can be carried out as per the Book of Revelation. But in real life what is going on is that people can see evil for what it is, and right now, as hard as it may be for some to accept, it's the conservative flank that is able to do so more easily than the progressive left, which remains strangely silent on the shocking degree of atrocities that happened on October 7, and even justifies it.

For conventional liberals increasingly of the old school, that anyone can wave away any form of horror as "whatever" because it's in the name of "justice" is scary. That the ends justifies the means is now commonplace belief among the progressive left is a major turnaround of everything I was taught to believe in a liberal world that I grew up in.

[Anonymous]

As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering how bad it's going to get. I live in an area where a lot of people have safe rooms, but we don't have one. We aren't Jewish but have Jewish friends. I'm curious if people are constructing safe rooms and otherwise preparing for the worst.

Where do you live where people have safe rooms?

It's just an affluent area.

I've lived in affluent areas. A lot of us on dcum have.

I've never heard of anyone having a safe room.

All that's relevant is that I can build a safe room without any strange discussions right now. I am getting names of contractors from neighbors and no one is cocking an eyebrow. But that may not be the case if things keep going this way.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Have you all seen what is happening to Jewish students at Cornell tonight?[/quote]

If you would’ve told me 4 years ago that evangelical Trump voters would be the biggest ally of our community in 2023 I would’ve called you insane (among other things). And yet here we are. [/quote]

They are most definitely not our allies. Christian nationalists are only invested in Jews as fodder for their apocalypse fantasies.[/quote]


That’s not what I’m seeing. [/quote]

Because maybe you're not.[/quote]

Trump has said anti semetic things, we have heard the things he has said.
Evangelical votes I don't think are anti semetic (I am an black evangelical who did not vote for Trump). They see Jewish people as living proof of God's promises and reality, like what we read about in the bible come to life. Corny but not from a place of hate. The Jews killed Jesus libel/trop is not a thing in evangelical circles (anymore, maybe it was in the past?). Please understand, I am not and will not dismiss any of your lived experiences and if you feel comfortable please share how I am wrong. White evangelicals felt and feel bound by their conscience to vote for the pro life candidate no matter what else he stands for. It is weird and I hate it but this is what happens. This is why Trump dumped Mike Flynn as his VP candidate for Pence. Republicans depend on these bound consciences for votes in a strategic way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

The far left is trying its hardest to control the party, they are makng heads in certain states (etc. Maryland). And the anti Israel crown, foreign and aboard, is deliberately seeking to reach the far left to see that the U.S. ends support of Israel. It's a long game, they may not achive this now or this year, but they are working for the future.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

The far left is trying its hardest to control the party, they are makng heads in certain states (etc. Maryland). And the anti Israel crown, foreign and aboard, is deliberately seeking to reach the far left to see that the U.S. ends support of Israel. It's a long game, they may not achive this now or this year, but they are working for the future.

Yep. And that’s what scares me.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Have you all seen what is happening to Jewish students at Cornell tonight?[/quote]

If you would’ve told me 4 years ago that evangelical Trump voters would be the biggest ally of our community in 2023 I would’ve called you insane (among other things). And yet here we are. [/quote]

They are most definitely not our allies. Christian nationalists are only invested in Jews as fodder for their apocalypse fantasies.[/quote]


That’s not what I’m seeing. [/quote]

Because maybe you're not.[/quote]

Trump has said anti semetic things, we have heard the things he has said.
Evangelical votes I don't think are anti semetic (I am an black evangelical who did not vote for Trump). They see Jewish people as living proof of God's promises and reality, like what we read about in the bible come to life. Corny but not from a place of hate. The Jews killed Jesus libel/trop is not a thing in evangelical circles (anymore, maybe it was in the past?). Please understand, I am not and will not dismiss any of your lived experiences and if you feel comfortable please share how I am wrong. White evangelicals felt and feel bound by their conscience to vote for the pro life candidate no matter what else he stands for. It is weird and I hate it but this is what happens. This is why Trump dumped Mike Flynn as his VP candidate for Pence. Republicans depend on these bound consciences for votes in a strategic way. [/quote]

What anti semitic things did Trump say?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm wondering how bad it's going to get. I live in an area where a lot of people have safe rooms, but we don't have one. We aren't Jewish but have Jewish friends. I'm curious if people are constructing safe rooms and otherwise preparing for the worst.

Where do you live where people have safe rooms?

It's just an affluent area.

I've lived in affluent areas. A lot of us on dcum have.

I've never heard of anyone having a safe room.

All that's relevant is that I can build a safe room without any strange discussions right now. I am getting names of contractors from neighbors and no one is cocking an eyebrow. But that may not be the case if things keep going this way.

Safe room is the middle of your mcmansion? They can just blow the house down. It's better to buy a house in the mudwest to escape to.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]Have you all seen what is happening to Jewish students at Cornell tonight?[/quote]

If you would’ve told me 4 years ago that evangelical Trump voters would be the biggest ally of our community in 2023 I would’ve called you insane (among other things). And yet here we are. [/quote]

They are most definitely not our allies. Christian nationalists are only invested in Jews as fodder for their apocalypse fantasies.[/quote]


That’s not what I’m seeing. [/quote]

Because maybe you're not.[/quote]

Trump has said anti semetic things, we have heard the things he has said.
Evangelical votes I don't think are anti semetic (I am an black evangelical who did not vote for Trump). They see Jewish people as living proof of God's promises and reality, like what we read about in the bible come to life. Corny but not from a place of hate. The Jews killed Jesus libel/trop is not a thing in evangelical circles (anymore, maybe it was in the past?). Please understand, I am not and will not dismiss any of your lived experiences and if you feel comfortable please share how I am wrong. White evangelicals felt and feel bound by their conscience to vote for the pro life candidate no matter what else he stands for. It is weird and I hate it but this is what happens. This is why Trump dumped Mike Flynn as his VP candidate for Pence. Republicans depend on these bound consciences for votes in a strategic way. [/quote]

What anti semitic things did Trump say?[/quote]

Are you serious?

“Good people on both sides” after Charlotesville.

More examples:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna105540

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/21/us/politics/jews-disloyal-trump.html

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Has anyone had this thought. If this is really what the younger generation is like would Jewish people even have support in the US in two to three generation. Easy to scoff at these college students but they are technically the leaders of tomorrow.

I'm a millennial who is pro-Palestine and not particularly supportive of the Israeli government (certainly not this one) and absolutely think the United States should dial back its political and financial support to the state of Israel. And I will vote for it, to the extent that I have a choice (not in 2024, obviously).

I'm not sure what your comment means. I have no problem with Jewish people as a whole, and to the extent that anyone is antisemitic or Jewish people are victims of hate speech/crimes, I totally condemn that and believe that should be prosecuted. I don't think advocating for the withdrawal of U.S. support to the state of Israel, as a consistent part of U.S. foreign policy, is baseline antisemitic. Perhaps some people advocate that for antisemitic reasons, but I just think it is bad foreign policy.

If you conflate those two things, than we have a fundamental disagreement on worldview. That's not my issue to solve.

Surely you understand that stateless nations are problematic for everyone. Look at the Kurds. They are a nation that has no official state. This has caused them to be attacked, famously with chemical weapons. They are also attackers, historically using terrorism for political violence. Right now, Israelis have a state. And, they have agreed to allow the state of Palestine to operate independently on land that officially belongs to Israel. Israel even foots the bill for all utilities that Palestine uses.

Why isn't this enough? Surely you understand that kicking Israelis out and leaving them stateless would harm all involved. Palestine has practically no governance and Israel has to take care of the people in Palestine. If we say, okay, let's kick out all the Jews and cede all of Israel to a terrorist organization, how do you think that will turn out? And what we would do about the nuclear bombs that Israel has? Turn that over to hamas, too? The so-called pro Palestine movement will be a bit like the dog that caught the car. This is not an outcome that will help actual Palestinians.

I agree that stateless nations are a problem for everyone. I also believe that the existence of the current Israel/Palestine situation is a problem for everyone (see, e.g. the current conflict - a major humanitarian problem for Gaza, potentially a regional conflict, and a major optics problem for the U.S., whose patron state is committing war crimes that we are, for some reason, defending in public).

The U.S. protecting this status quo through its policy of "support for Israel" (in its current form), is in my opinion bad policy. Either we need to (1) put our money where our mouth is and forcefully advocate for/broker a legitimate two-state solution in which Palestine is a real state with full control and sovereignty over its land, which would also require massive foreign aid to build out infrastructure and institutions so that it actually can be a functioning state; or (2) put enormous pressure on Israel to absorb Palestinians into the country as full, voting citizens with rights, who are treated well, educated properly, and supported in every way by the state. That might mean that Israel is no longer an ethnoreligious state but a multiethnic democracy. It can be done. And, while I hear the arguments that the Jewish people should have their own state, I don't think that is possible or good policy when it comes at the expense of subjugating a population of 2 million Palestinians.

Obviously these options aren't simple. There are a ton of issues to work out, and I realize that neither side is solely a victim or solely an aggressor, and obviously at this point they hate each other. I think either would eventually be preferable to what is going on right now, and I really hate that the U.S.'s policy is to blindly support the Israeli government as though they can do no wrong. It is bad policy for the American people.

Please educate yourself on the history of the region.

Why does the United States have to do what you want it to do? You make it sound like an imperative or moral obligation. And you dare to ask us to build your nation up by scratch financially? You don’t even like our country anyway you just want to use us so no thank you. We support Israel and that is our choice.

I'm an American citizen and an American taxpayer just as much as you are, and it's equally my right to speak up about what I see to be the moral obligations of my government, protest USG policy I don't like, and vote and advocate for policy I do like, as it is yours. And I do not have Palestinian heritage. I am very glad that demographic and generational change is making it more likely that the longstanding USG policy toward Israel will change. I will vote for that.

The anti Israeli protesters are suggesting fairly significant involvement in the middle east. A lot more people will die if we try to restructure the region and chase out the Jews. I don't even see your position as being sympathetic toward middle eastern civilians. It's really only helpful to terrorist groups seeking control.

I never suggested "chas[ing] out the Jews." I recognize that there are people who advocate for that, but they're pretty clearly not serious people. I think we need to leverage the resources we provide to Israel by requiring that they actually, in good faith, participate in a two-state solution that creates a functional Palestinian state or integrate the Palestinian population into their country as full citizens with full rights. I am willing to allocate foreign aid and resources to this. I do not want to allocate cash and in-kind military support to Israel in the form we are providing now, i.e., no strings.

They've tried. They've offered a ton of deals to the Palestinians. If we think we can do better than all of the middle eastern leaders who've tried to fix this, over the span of several decades, we are either dumb or narcissistic.

Then they need to offer better deals. And I think that we [the U.S.] should use our leverage, aka the $3B+ in annual foreign aid that we spend on Israel, to encourage the Israeli government to do this. And cut it off if they do not.

Oh yes. Let's meddle even more in middle eastern politics and pump a tiny nation with $3B allowance and require no industry. What could go wrong.

This is western meddling at its finest and you are too blind to even see it.

This is precisely what we're doing right now. What are you trying to say?

Giving aid to our military allies isn't the same as restructuring the middle east in a manner that comports with western sensibilities and completely discounts the preferences of the people living there.

Yeah, I don't think we need military allies who use our military aid to commit war crimes against Palestinian civilians. The tacit and tangible support we are giving to that endeavor undermines our own security. And I absolutely am not suggesting we "restructure the Middle East" either. But what's going on right now is also not the preferences of the people living there, and it is not sustainable, and I think we should be pushing our "ally" to actually work toward a constructive solution.

You’re right, instead, the world, including the US, should give billions and billions of dollars for decades to be used for humanitarian aid and then take no measurable steps to prevent a terrorist organization from taking that money and using it for weapons and tunnels. And then we should blame Israel when the people we gave the humanitarian aid to don’t actually receive it, rather than hold the terrorist organization that stole it accountable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

The far left is trying its hardest to control the party, they are makng heads in certain states (etc. Maryland). And the anti Israel crown, foreign and aboard, is deliberately seeking to reach the far left to see that the U.S. ends support of Israel. It's a long game, they may not achive this now or this year, but they are working for the future.

Yep. And that’s what scares me.

the us shouldn’t be anti Israel agreed

But it shouldn’t support Israel either

Why not just have a neutral posture

Let Israel be Israel

Let America be America

If you don’t like that, you are free to move to Israel

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

The far left is trying its hardest to control the party, they are makng heads in certain states (etc. Maryland). And the anti Israel crown, foreign and aboard, is deliberately seeking to reach the far left to see that the U.S. ends support of Israel. It's a long game, they may not achive this now or this year, but they are working for the future.

Yep. And that’s what scares me.

the us shouldn’t be anti Israel agreed

But it shouldn’t support Israel either

Why not just have a neutral posture

Let Israel be Israel

Let America be America

If you don’t like that, you are free to move to Israel

We’ve been over this many times.

If the US withdraws support for Israel, Arab states and terrorist groups would exploit that and attack quickly.

It would be Israel vs Iran/Syria/Lebanon/Hamas and potentially other states as well.

Israel would lose. The territory would end up being run by Arabs who very well could have terrorist affiliations.

Deaths in general would be awful and among Israeli Jews it would be especially awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a Jew, I see the center left as our strongest ally (Joe Biden and Hillary, for example). More sincerely supportive than evangelicals on the right. I’ve been saddened and disappointed by the far left, but so far, they’re not the ones in control of the party.

The far left is trying its hardest to control the party, they are makng heads in certain states (etc. Maryland). And the anti Israel crown, foreign and aboard, is deliberately seeking to reach the far left to see that the U.S. ends support of Israel. It's a long game, they may not achive this now or this year, but they are working for the future.

Yep. And that’s what scares me.

the us shouldn’t be anti Israel agreed

But it shouldn’t support Israel either

Why not just have a neutral posture

Let Israel be Israel

Let America be America

If you don’t like that, you are free to move to Israel

We’ve been over this many times.

If the US withdraws support for Israel, Arab states and terrorist groups would exploit that and attack quickly.

It would be Israel vs Iran/Syria/Lebanon/Hamas and potentially other states as well.

Israel would lose. The territory would end up being run by Arabs who very well could have terrorist affiliations.

Deaths in general would be awful and among Israeli Jews it would be especially awful.

1. They already tried this in the past and lost

2. Israel has nukes - Arabs don’t