White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It has been a relief to me to read this thread. For various reasons, I have spent the past 3ish years inundated by the ideas in this interview. I went from being a progressive liberal to literally just giving up and registering as Republican because it seemed like liberals were suddenly racial segregationists, and I didn't want to be involved in a movement that viewed people primarily as demographic categories. The fact that reasonable liberal women are weighing in to correctly call out this BS is very heartening to me. And I'm surprised that this article generated do much discussion here bc I have literally been inundated with this kind of crap for years, so I may need to figure out where the normal liberals are.

It is very hard for me to believe anyone who truly believed in liberal causes, such as protecting the rights of all Americans and trying to right the wrongs against marginalized groups (from women to POC to LGBTQ+ etc) would think registering as a Republican in today's climate was a good option. Any group that is so obviously anti-women, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ, against telling the truth about our nations history in schools, anti-environment, etc. and pro-conspiracy theories, pro-election denying, refusing to acknowledge the reality of Jan 6...just NO! They want to dismantle our democracy to hold on to power.

I am one of the posters who is sad about the anti-white-women sentiments that seem to be so ubiquitous and (unfortunately) tolerated right now, but I think this is a symptom of how, frankly, unsophisticated humans can be in their thinking. It's like we can never have the pendulum in the middle; we overreact to things that are wrong by going overboard in the other direction. We have to work together to right the ship, not go over to the group that wants to take away rights from women and other marginalized groups and defend only the wealthy and powerful.

Funny how you preach "working together" but what you really mean is, working with those who share your exact opinion with zero deviation from that opinion. It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you talk about the rights of all Americans while spewing such venom about the political party you oppose. How very virtuous to be so arrogant in your own opinion that everyone who questions it or doesn't share it gets a label. The poster that you responded to has some valid points, but you'll never hear them because you're so busy repeating your talking points. You don't have to open your mind to what the right espouses, but FFS, at least listen to another liberal and consider they might have some valid points.

Oh I absolutely mean pro-democracy people working together against the anti-democracy members of the GOP. I'm not quibbling about it and I will not apologize. The opinions across the Democratic party *are* quite varied, because it is a large umbrella. Not so much across the lock-step GOP. There are a few Republicans out there willing to speak out against their parties awful policies, but unfortunately they are few. Please detail for me the policies of the Republican party that pro-women's rights, pro-LGBTQ rights, anti-racist, and are about rights of all Americans. You can't. Everything I stated about the policies, propaganda and rhetoric of Republicans is true.

You're attempt to parrot the GOP cry of "you must tolerate my intolerance" is ridiculous and tired.

Yeah, you’re just proving my point with your follow up rant. You must feel so virtuous, ridding the world of evil and all that…

You have no point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

It's almost like "white women" is actually not a single-minded group, but instead contains women with a diverse range of interest, viewpoints, beliefs, politics, hobbies, goals, educational experiences...I can go on.

Bottom line don't label all white women as the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay we're picking on white women, the new national Olympic sport. But I've got to say, I f g hate, truly hate, long pointy fake fingernails, ie. Cardi B. They look trashy and reek of dirty, I just can't go into how many ways they are an absolute turn off the the male friends I have in this life. Why anyone would walk around with those talons is beyond me. You are welcome to come into the oval short nail world, there's plenty of room for everyone here.

Here’s another irony: you hate long, “trashy” nails and nail art - you are racist because those are associated with “black and brown people.” You love long nails and nail art, you’re culturally appropriating because that’s a style associated with “black and brown people” and therefore you are … wait for it … racist! So you go outside the long nails/nail art thing entirely and go with a short, oval manicure in a neutral color … RACIST because it’s perpetuating white beauty standards!!!!

NPR please give me a job!

The only solution is to rip off the nails of white women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay we're picking on white women, the new national Olympic sport. But I've got to say, I f g hate, truly hate, long pointy fake fingernails, ie. Cardi B. They look trashy and reek of dirty, I just can't go into how many ways they are an absolute turn off the the male friends I have in this life. Why anyone would walk around with those talons is beyond me. You are welcome to come into the oval short nail world, there's plenty of room for everyone here.

Here’s another irony: you hate long, “trashy” nails and nail art - you are racist because those are associated with “black and brown people.” You love long nails and nail art, you’re culturally appropriating because that’s a style associated with “black and brown people” and therefore you are … wait for it … racist! So you go outside the long nails/nail art thing entirely and go with a short, oval manicure in a neutral color … RACIST because it’s perpetuating white beauty standards!!!!

NPR please give me a job!

The only solution is to rip off the nails of white women.

Maybe white women should wear black latex nail sheathes? Would that be inoffensive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm currently using my white privilege to file my nails into their usual oval shape and will paint them with a lovely dark red shade before my trip. My privilege hasn't afforded me the luxury of professional manicures hence I'm doing them myself. Don't care if anyone judges them, so do not care.

Same. I sat in the car next to my white male oppressor husband and filed my nails into submissive, yet class dominant ovals. I didn't want to "take up space" with nail polish scents in the car, so I used these to make almond nails.https://www.amazon.com/ESSIE-SLEEK-STICK-STICKERS-CROCN/dp/B00GXW19RW/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?crid=3I0LH8Q7RF2P0&keywords=essie+sleek+stick&qid=1680750043&sprefix=essie+sleek+stick%2Caps%2C158&sr=8-7

Suck it NPR.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

I appreciate where you are going, but this is not the way. Segregation will never be the way. We need to tell these racists to back off, and insist on an equal and integrated culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

I don't think most black women think it's an okay term. I think they know it's crap. But we've let things get so bad that they can't say anything without people thinking they are the next Candace Owens. Really, we all just need to reject this racist garbage. Stop being good girls, with socially acceptable opinions. Speak the truth. "Coastal grandma fashion is benign." "Oval nails catch less dirt." "I don't give a sh-- what you think, you dumb racist. Sorry you lack a sense of style and also, you're ugly."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

I agree it's been cathartic to talk about this here. Nobody wants to turn around the advances by POC in recent years. But racial healing can't and won't be found in hating on white women. At least the NPR piece has served one purpose: the sheer idiocy of accusing white women of supremacism for making their own choices about clothing and nail shapes has galvanized the debate against Karening.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

I agree it's been cathartic to talk about this here. Nobody wants to turn around the advances by POC in recent years. But racial healing can't and won't be found in hating on white women. At least the NPR piece has served one purpose: the sheer idiocy of accusing white women of supremacism for making their own choices about clothing and nail shapes has galvanized the debate against Karening.

* if only on DCUM

[Anonymous]

I'm shocked by some of what I've read. White women going on and on about how they're victims and finding it cathartic that they've found other rich white women to FINALLY listen to them and give their rants credibility.

Welcome to the real world, ladies.
- Asian woman who has been dumped on and stereotyped my whole life and is still having a really hard time empathizing here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Omg did I really just read this? You are such a stereotype. Check yourself white lady.

Check yourself. We're not going to give you control over our nail shapes.

I didn't even read the article, but I cannot believe how many of you feel like victims.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm shocked by some of what I've read. White women going on and on about how they're victims and finding it cathartic that they've found other rich white women to FINALLY listen to them and give their rants credibility.

Welcome to the real world, ladies.
- Asian woman who has been dumped on and stereotyped my whole life and is still having a really hard time empathizing here.

I’m shocked that you think it’s ok to dictate to women of any color what they should wear, or that they can’t speak up. Check yourself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Omg did I really just read this? You are such a stereotype. Check yourself white lady.

Check yourself. We're not going to give you control over our nail shapes.

I didn't even read the article, but I cannot believe how many of you feel like victims.

Read the article, numbnut. Then come back here and explain why women of any color shouldn’t be allowed to choose the nail shape or clothing that work for them.