White women try to "reclaim power" through #vanillagirl and #cleangirl beauty posts??

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

DP. I just reread this thread and I don't see the word "home." You made that up. You really do hate other women, don't you.

People need to stop engaging with that one. Clearly a troll.

You should read the thread again, I guess. The PP said that white women should build solidarity with other white women because “charity begins at home.” The fact that you feel good about acting like you read the whole thread while still claiming that this phrase was not used tells me what I need to know about your motives here.

In the alternate, you might be a bot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

But you are the one arguing against intersectionality.

No, I'm the one saying that groups of white women don't feel like "home". YOU are the one speculating about someone else's life and "lifestyle," whatever th that means, because you don't like me saying that.

I'm the PP who used the word home. I didn't say white women "feel like home." I was making a metaphor using the common saying "charity begins at home," by suggesting that if white women really want to fight sexism, we could begin by offering one another solidarity against sexism and misogyny. I noted that white women often compete with one another, trying to prove that they are the best or most worthy white women, and that being progressive doesn't seem to cure this tendency of white women to pit themselves against one another because often white women compete with each other on who can be the most progressive, the most woke, the most anti-racist. Which means that this behavior is not actually about being progressive or anti-racist, but about about winning a perceived contest to be the "Best White Woman." The Least Karen.

It wasn't about white women being my "home" and that's an inaccurate twisting of words into he shape of a straw man. I see you using $10 vocabulary words like vituperative so I'm guessing you are literate enough to understand what I was actually saying, but you'd rather intentionally misinterpret it in order to call me racist and establish yourself as the Least Karen on the thread. Good work. Risible, even.

Well, it was a poor metaphor, then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

But you are the one arguing against intersectionality.

No, I'm the one saying that groups of white women don't feel like "home". YOU are the one speculating about someone else's life and "lifestyle," whatever th that means, because you don't like me saying that.

I'm the PP who used the word home. I didn't say white women "feel like home." I was making a metaphor using the common saying "charity begins at home," by suggesting that if white women really want to fight sexism, we could begin by offering one another solidarity against sexism and misogyny. I noted that white women often compete with one another, trying to prove that they are the best or most worthy white women, and that being progressive doesn't seem to cure this tendency of white women to pit themselves against one another because often white women compete with each other on who can be the most progressive, the most woke, the most anti-racist. Which means that this behavior is not actually about being progressive or anti-racist, but about about winning a perceived contest to be the "Best White Woman." The Least Karen.

It wasn't about white women being my "home" and that's an inaccurate twisting of words into he shape of a straw man. I see you using $10 vocabulary words like vituperative so I'm guessing you are literate enough to understand what I was actually saying, but you'd rather intentionally misinterpret it in order to call me racist and establish yourself as the Least Karen on the thread. Good work. Risible, even.

Well, it was a poor metaphor, then.

Look, you can insult my writing to avoid engaging with my ideas, but I’m not going to sit here while you take what I wrote out of context in order to call me racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

I didn’t write that post and I do not agree with all of it.

But I can recognize your frantic prostration before white men a mile away.

+1. I didn't write the post either, but I too can recognize the submission to white men and divisive racists who want to control other women's clothing, which you refuse to acknowledge.

I think the deflecting PP who keeps pretending she isn’t subject to misogyny is a white women who depends on male approval for her lifestyle. That’s usually who the ones who make a stink about how above it all they are turn out to be. They have to be actively blind to misogyny because their lifestyle depends on maintaining that blindness.

This almost could not be more 180 degrees off from reality. Risible, if it weren't so sad. There has been so much headroom opened up by intersectional approaches to feminism and y'all are just acting like it never happened.

But you are the one arguing against intersectionality.

No, I'm the one saying that groups of white women don't feel like "home". YOU are the one speculating about someone else's life and "lifestyle," whatever th that means, because you don't like me saying that.

I'm the PP who used the word home. I didn't say white women "feel like home." I was making a metaphor using the common saying "charity begins at home," by suggesting that if white women really want to fight sexism, we could begin by offering one another solidarity against sexism and misogyny. I noted that white women often compete with one another, trying to prove that they are the best or most worthy white women, and that being progressive doesn't seem to cure this tendency of white women to pit themselves against one another because often white women compete with each other on who can be the most progressive, the most woke, the most anti-racist. Which means that this behavior is not actually about being progressive or anti-racist, but about about winning a perceived contest to be the "Best White Woman." The Least Karen.

It wasn't about white women being my "home" and that's an inaccurate twisting of words into he shape of a straw man. I see you using $10 vocabulary words like vituperative so I'm guessing you are literate enough to understand what I was actually saying, but you'd rather intentionally misinterpret it in order to call me racist and establish yourself as the Least Karen on the thread. Good work. Risible, even.

Well, it was a poor metaphor, then.

Look, you can insult my writing to avoid engaging with my ideas, but I’m not going to sit here while you take what I wrote out of context in order to call me racist.

And you shouldn't take it. I'm not clear about who's calling who a troll and why. But manipulating other peoples' words to call them a racist is the hallmark of trolling, or at least of bad faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

+1

The OMG you are SOOOOO hysterical response is just classic old-fashioned misogyny at work.

+2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

If you meet a jerk in the morning, you're having a bad morning. If you meet jerks all day, you're the jerk.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty patronizing - to assume that black people wouldn't accurately articulate their own experiences and to re-write their narrative into something you feel is more believable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty patronizing - to assume that black people wouldn't accurately articulate their own experiences and to re-write their narrative into something you feel is more believable.

DP. Whoooosh, the sound of the ANALOGY going over your head.

Or you’re a troll, which seems increasingly likely.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty patronizing - to assume that black people wouldn't accurately articulate their own experiences and to re-write their narrative into something you feel is more believable.

Not what I said at all -- this is weak trolling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the reason this thread is so long is that progressive white women don't feel like there are any venues to express frustrations about stuff like "Karen" becoming a term of any middle aged woman who dares to complain about anything, or the way even white womens' interest in anti-racism or progressive causes often gets twisted as trying to center ourselves or silence POC. There's truly no way to discuss any of this without inviting more criticism -- oh boo hoo white women, good job making yourselves the victim again.

I also think white women make this harder on themselves by not being a group that has much solidarity. I think patriarchy has taught white women to always seek out an angle, a way to become the "best" of the white women and therefore be chosen and bestowed with some limited power by the white men. You see this in the way white women compete with one another, and with how much value is placed on marrying a high-earning and high-status white man -- white women still view men as their primary path to power.

But even among progressive women who might look at that kind of competition and rightfully see it as anti-feminist and ultimately bad for all women, it can be hard to shake that deeply engrained belief that the only way to have worth as a woman is to prove yourself to be better than other women, to curry the favor of those in positions of power. And then you see progressive women doing this within progressive circles, trying to prove who is the most woke, the most progressive, the most anti-racist, the best at owning her privilege. But often you can see it is performative. Honestly, I've engaged in this myself and then realized I was doing it and I'm embarrassed.

I think if white women could learn to support each other and to see one another as equals and as allies, instead of competition, we could shake some of the Karen accusations. I think we are an easy target because we are one of the few groups that never really gets together and backs one another up. We betray each other to back up others, usually white men. I personally envy the way black women and other WOC are often so strongly supportive of one another and understand themselves to be in shared cause with one another. I think we could use some of that spirit among white women, but it's hard to develop when any alliance between white women is seen as nefarious and potentially harmful to POC.

I don't know what the answer is but I think it's been cathartic to have this conversation here, because there is really nowhere else that I think could host a conversation like this right now. These topics and ideas are taboo and provoke too much criticism from all sides. I don't even talk about these issues with my white girlfriends. It's too scary.

This is a very powerful post.

But I don't see the answer in white women rallying around and supporting each other. I see it in people of all races calling out things like the use of "Karen" for what it is: hate speech. It's deeply hateful toward women, older women, and white women.

Im shocked to see black women use it- of all people, who have gotten dumped on the most with the worst stereotyping and caricatures, to then use Karen to silence white women? It's shameful, any POC should know better but I guess it just feels too good to have some other group to beat up on. Human nature is disappointing.

It was a powerfully *racist* post. There is no reason why I, as a white woman, should be finding solidarity with other white women who broke whatever percent it was for Trump in 2016.

As a group, if we focus on cleaning up anything, it should be our acts and not our faces.

DP. Most people have agreed that white women circling the wagons is not the answer.

But you can’t keep ignoring that Karen is hate speech. Not my friend Karen, but the way it’s used to silence women.

Have we really reached a point where we can’t do more than one thing? You think we can’t fight racism and sexism at the same time?

No, that's not what I think. I think you are mistaken about when you're "fighting sexism" and when you're reinforcing white supremacy culture. As a white woman, I do not trust the thoughts of other white women about which is which.

Yet you are happy to give white men a pass.

No. But I am starting to suspect that you are embarrassed to have been caught proposing that white women should treat other white women like “home” in the sense of “charity begins at home.”

DP. I just reread this thread and I don't see the word "home." You made that up. You really do hate other women, don't you.

People need to stop engaging with that one. Clearly a troll.

You should read the thread again, I guess. The PP said that white women should build solidarity with other white women because “charity begins at home.” The fact that you feel good about acting like you read the whole thread while still claiming that this phrase was not used tells me what I need to know about your motives here.

In the alternate, you might be a bot.

Nope. Whoever is going on and on about the "home" thing is as bad as the woman talking about clean beauty being a power grab. You are way out in space here. Simple message was that white women need to stop competing with each other in the larger context of all women banding together to fight sexism instead of fighting against one another. That's it. And you or whoever was finding some nefarious nonsense in there. Very trollish.

Just stop it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty patronizing - to assume that black people wouldn't accurately articulate their own experiences and to re-write their narrative into something you feel is more believable.

Not what I said at all -- this is weak trolling.

I think some incel has found the thread. Weak sauce.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a woman of color and I find the article silly. What I guess I don't understand is the tremendous outrage it seems to have triggered here among white women. If you think it's dumb, that's fine, but what is it about this that makes white women so damn fragile about it all?

Being constantly told you’re a “Karen,” being constantly told you are not recognizing your privilege (never mind people having no idea what struggles you or your family have faced), being constantly told you’re a “basic B” or “have no culture,” being constantly told you’re not recognizing other people (again, when people don’t actually know who you are or what you’ve done), being told you’re not an ally, or not ally enough, or that your allyship is “performative,” being constantly told you are “fragile”…basically, you are never doing it right. Which is all fine and part of life and not a hard burden to bear, but it is never-ending.

Is this truly your life? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a Karen? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're not recognizing your privilege? Are you, in fact, CONSTANTLY told you're a basic b who has no culture? If you are CONSTANTLY being told these things, PP, then I think you're probably doing something wrong. Maybe even CONSTANTLY doing something wrong.

It is my interpretation (which I think the PP may even have explained somewhere in the thread) that's she's not talking about literally "being told" but talking about general ideas in the culture that are, yes, continuously part of the dialogue. I have never personally been called a Karen or told to check my privilege or that I'm basic or not recognizing other people. But I do have a sense that I need to be cautious about what I say and how I say it, and find myself being quieter and less opinionated in general, because of how I see people talking about white women in the public sphere, and not wanting to invite criticism (and also genuinely not wanting to harm people by centering myself or making conversations about my experience).

I think to take the above comment literally is a bit disingenuous. For instance, if a black person used the same framing device to speak about their experience of living in our culture, would you immediately jump in and say "well, wait are you actually, literally, being told CONSTANTLY that you are less than?" Because if I heard a black person talking in these terms I think I'd understand they are not talking literally about being told things but more about being steeped in a culture that makes them feel less than. I would give them the benefit of the doubt, understanding that racism exists and that obviously it must impact someone who is part of a minority group who has been subject to racism throughout our country's history.

Not sure why it's so hard to give the PP the same benefit of the doubt.

That's pretty patronizing - to assume that black people wouldn't accurately articulate their own experiences and to re-write their narrative into something you feel is more believable.

Not what I said at all -- this is weak trolling.

I think some incel has found the thread. Weak sauce.

DP. That sad thing is that he's disrupted, intentionally no doubt, what was a really interesting convo.

[Anonymous]

Maybe we bump some "best of thread" posts and call it a day?

[Anonymous]

NPR laid off 10% of its staff. And like all things, it reportedly affected queen and brown people the most.

No word on the fate of the "its been a minute" staff. Their latest episode promotes dating AI boyfriends.

Bleak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NPR laid off 10% of its staff. And like all things, it reportedly affected queen and brown people the most.

No word on the fate of the "its been a minute" staff. Their latest episode promotes dating AI boyfriends.

Bleak.

Doesn't really seem relevant. A lot of media companies are doing layoffs because ad buys are way down over the last 6-8 months.