Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

Following up on the Becky Tuch post...she says that writers should only feel "nurtured and protected" at Grub Street, where she is a consultant. Here is a breakdown of how Grub Street handled Dorland's complaint, and why she made it. The Chunky Monkeys were all involved, and so Dorland eventually quit. None of them have an ounce of credibility.

https://greenlivvie.tumblr.com/post/664733851450540032/grubstreet-as-an-employer-in-bad-art-friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Hi,

I am a successful published novelist (I make a living writing) and these MFA programs and writing groups are so not essential to success its crazy. I mean just look at the publishing career of Sonya Larson.

And do not confuse Helen Rosner with publishers. Publishers care about a story that will sell. Yes, personal connections can help sometimes, but really what gets you in is your work.

You do not need any connections, cliques or degrees to write, or to get published.

I do recommend taking some classes here and there. The Writers Center in Bethesda is awesome, and I think a lot if not most of the classes are virtual. I've taken a few classes at Politics & Prose too. Have not run into any cruel mean girl tactics, but have made friends with other writers.

GL

Any recommendations for good workshops in NYC, that are also kind?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High-profile writers savaging a less-successful and vulnerable writer reminded me of the Isabel Fall tragedy:

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter

I'm never going to buy another book by Celeste Ng or Roxane Gay (or NK Jemisin for that matter). Or anything from Chip Cheek, not that he is anywhere near them as far as success (I'd never heard of him).

Wait what did Jemisin do???

Read the Isabel Fall story. Her role in that horror was not good.

also this one https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html

[Anonymous]

The Flying Monkeys were obsessed with this woman and gang-stalking her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Hi,

I am a successful published novelist (I make a living writing) and these MFA programs and writing groups are so not essential to success its crazy. I mean just look at the publishing career of Sonya Larson.

And do not confuse Helen Rosner with publishers. Publishers care about a story that will sell. Yes, personal connections can help sometimes, but really what gets you in is your work.

You do not need any connections, cliques or degrees to write, or to get published.

I do recommend taking some classes here and there. The Writers Center in Bethesda is awesome, and I think a lot if not most of the classes are virtual. I've taken a few classes at Politics & Prose too. Have not run into any cruel mean girl tactics, but have made friends with other writers.

GL

Any recommendations for good workshops in NYC, that are also kind?

Nope, sorry. I would just do online classes -- check out the Writers Center.

https://www.writer.org/workshops/

But here's a good example -- an online NaNoWriMo workshop.

https://www.writer.org/event/fa21fic12b/

FYI, I've taken classes with Kathryn Johnson and really enjoyed them. Finished a novel while working FT and raising kids b/c of her class. And met several awesome women and we started our own writing group after the class and ended.

[Anonymous]

Here's another Grub Street instructor, Steve Almond, totally missing the point. This company of writers clearly do not care about plagiarism and their unwillingness to parse as well as inability to meaningfully write about human behavior leaves a lot to be said about their quality of instruction. They all have a huge blind spot.

https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2021/10/11/bad-art-friend-new-york-times-steve-almond

[Anonymous]

I'm the aspiring writer PP who wrote the long post about an MFA and who wants to improve writing skills, and I just want to thank both of the writer PPs who responded to me so kindly and with such encouragement. You have no idea how much better you've made me feel.

Also, I didn't ask about NYC so there is someone else you are helping too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's another Grub Street instructor, Steve Almond, totally missing the point. This company of writers clearly do not care about plagiarism and their unwillingness to parse as well as inability to meaningfully write about human behavior leaves a lot to be said about their quality of instruction. They all have a huge blind spot.

https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2021/10/11/bad-art-friend-new-york-times-steve-almond

Yes, that is pretty bad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

Nah, nothing is going through happen to them. The literary scene is fine with their behavior. Roxane Gay and NK Jemisin already had no hesitation in savaging a young college student online and they're still going strong:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html

They will probably apologize saying that they are sorry for not fully assessing the situation and blindly supporting their good friend, and throw Larson under a bus like good friends usually do.

[Anonymous]

The group texts made me think of this essay by CS Lewis:

https://www.lewissociety.org/innerring/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

Nah, nothing is going through happen to them. The literary scene is fine with their behavior. Roxane Gay and NK Jemisin already had no hesitation in savaging a young college student online and they're still going strong:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html

They will probably apologize saying that they are sorry for not fully assessing the situation and blindly supporting their good friend, and throw Larson under a bus like good friends usually do.

I mean, obviously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am now so firmly on Dawn Dorland's side that I would actively go out of my way to buy her debut novel, if it ever comes out. I think she's demonstrated honesty, bravery and earnest goodwill, and I genuinely empathize with her scorched-earth method (if it can even be called that -- subsequent details have illuminated quite the opposite) of dealing with an episode in her life that seems like a nightmare come to life. I don't know how I would have reacted after experiencing such utter betrayal, cruelty, and gaslighting. People pretending they would have been too cool to behave like Dorland did are lying to themselves.

Dawn, you most certainly aren't reading this, but I wish you genuine success, peace of mind, and - because it feels germane to this conversation - good health.

I'm with you. Sonya Larson is a predator, just like Harvey Weinstein, except that she preys on women's emotions and vulnerabilities in the same way as Weinstein preyed on young women's bodies.

The horrid Larson supporters like Ng are no better than a bunch of male producers coming out and saying boys will be boys after Weinstein rapes came to light. Just horrid and the fact that some want to play the race card makes it even worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the aspiring writer PP who wrote the long post about an MFA and who wants to improve writing skills, and I just want to thank both of the writer PPs who responded to me so kindly and with such encouragement. You have no idea how much better you've made me feel.

Also, I didn't ask about NYC so there is someone else you are helping too.

Aww, happy to help! I have been there with the self doubt. Stay the course find a few people you can trust, invest in yourself, keep your eyes on your own paper.

I heartily recommend the podcasts The Bestseller Experiment and #amwriting for inspiration. Esp. the first. Start all the way at the beginning. These guys are a riot, they are very kind and sweet, and they have authors on who demystify the process -- both craft and publishing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the aspiring writer PP who wrote the long post about an MFA and who wants to improve writing skills, and I just want to thank both of the writer PPs who responded to me so kindly and with such encouragement. You have no idea how much better you've made me feel.

Also, I didn't ask about NYC so there is someone else you are helping too.

Aww, happy to help! I have been there with the self doubt. Stay the course find a few people you can trust, invest in yourself, keep your eyes on your own paper.

I heartily recommend the podcasts The Bestseller Experiment and #amwriting for inspiration. Esp. the first. Start all the way at the beginning. These guys are a riot, they are very kind and sweet, and they have authors on who demystify the process -- both craft and publishing.

Wanted to add that the Bestseller Experiment has a very lovely and supportive FB group. No nasties at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now so firmly on Dawn Dorland's side that I would actively go out of my way to buy her debut novel, if it ever comes out. I think she's demonstrated honesty, bravery and earnest goodwill, and I genuinely empathize with her scorched-earth method (if it can even be called that -- subsequent details have illuminated quite the opposite) of dealing with an episode in her life that seems like a nightmare come to life. I don't know how I would have reacted after experiencing such utter betrayal, cruelty, and gaslighting. People pretending they would have been too cool to behave like Dorland did are lying to themselves.

Dawn, you most certainly aren't reading this, but I wish you genuine success, peace of mind, and - because it feels germane to this conversation - good health.

I'm with you. Sonya Larson is a predator, just like Harvey Weinstein, except that she preys on women's emotions and vulnerabilities in the same way as Weinstein preyed on young women's bodies.

The horrid Larson supporters like Ng are no better than a bunch of male producers coming out and saying boys will be boys after Weinstein rapes came to light. Just horrid and the fact that some want to play the race card makes it even worse.

It did remind me of how all those republicans said "oh that's locker room talk" about Trump.

Umm, no.