Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

Just wanted to chime in that you don't need an MFA to be a writer, and you definitely don't need one to write. You don't need acceptance and approval from the MFA crowd either. Most of the stories I write are largely to amuse myself or because I think readers I know will like them. That's enough for me. If an editor or writing instructor has nice things to say about it, that's really lovely! If they don't, oh well. The story exists whether they like it or not. I have a bunch of unpublished stories and poems and if they never find a published home, I like the idea that my daughter will someday be able to look at them if she wants. Same with my novel draft.

Anyway, I would also recommend Barrelhouse as a good source for virtual classes. They also do some conferences and camps which I've never been able to participate in but have heard are good. It's an indie press but they embrace a lot of work that kind of spans genres and forms. Everyone I've met there has been exceedingly down to earth and not even remotely hung up on whether you have an MFA or where you've been published before.

I've also taken classes with the Writer's Center and there's some overlap in their instructors and community. The more time you spend in the writing/publishing world the more you find this -- you run into the same people over and over again different places. Another reason why I find it extra weird the Chunky Monkeys decided to go after Dorland and turn her into an enemy (when they could have just ignored her!). It's a small world and you have to learn that if someone is not your cup of tea, you can just stay polite and pleasant and avoid them when necessary. Turning it into some kind of fight to the death won't work out well for anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's another Grub Street instructor, Steve Almond, totally missing the point. This company of writers clearly do not care about plagiarism and their unwillingness to parse as well as inability to meaningfully write about human behavior leaves a lot to be said about their quality of instruction. They all have a huge blind spot.

https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2021/10/11/bad-art-friend-new-york-times-steve-almond

Yes, that is pretty bad.

Agree, that is one bad take.

[Anonymous]

shan1212 wrote:A Chunky Monkey, Becky Tuch, apologizes and announces she has left the group: https://twitter.com/BeckyLTuch/status/1447603792804032512

I feel like some of her tweets are contradictory:
"I want to say on record that I always loved this story. I was proud of Sonya for writing it, thrilled to see it getting recognition I felt it deserved."
"I did not participate in any discussion of this story, until it was finally published."
"My understanding of the legal issues was superficial."
"Everything I have ever said to her in email or elsewhere was with the understanding that I was supporting my wonderful and talented friend through a truly awful situation."I owe Dawn Dorland an apology. I’m sorry for the role I played here. I’m sorry I didn’t make a greater attempt to learn her side of the story. And most of all, I am sorry I did not intervene to de-fuse a situation that I believe did not have to come to this."

So did she leave in 2013 and have no knowledge of the story or was she involved and supporting this all along? Now I want to search documents for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Hi,

I am a successful published novelist (I make a living writing) and these MFA programs and writing groups are so not essential to success its crazy. I mean just look at the publishing career of Sonya Larson.

And do not confuse Helen Rosner with publishers. Publishers care about a story that will sell. Yes, personal connections can help sometimes, but really what gets you in is your work.

You do not need any connections, cliques or degrees to write, or to get published.

I do recommend taking some classes here and there. The Writers Center in Bethesda is awesome, and I think a lot if not most of the classes are virtual. I've taken a few classes at Politics & Prose too. Have not run into any cruel mean girl tactics, but have made friends with other writers.

GL

Any recommendations for good workshops in NYC, that are also kind?

Nope, sorry. I would just do online classes -- check out the Writers Center.

https://www.writer.org/workshops/

But here's a good example -- an online NaNoWriMo workshop.

https://www.writer.org/event/fa21fic12b/

FYI, I've taken classes with Kathryn Johnson and really enjoyed them. Finished a novel while working FT and raising kids b/c of her class. And met several awesome women and we started our own writing group after the class and ended.

Thank you so much! Truly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Hi,

I am a successful published novelist (I make a living writing) and these MFA programs and writing groups are so not essential to success its crazy. I mean just look at the publishing career of Sonya Larson.

And do not confuse Helen Rosner with publishers. Publishers care about a story that will sell. Yes, personal connections can help sometimes, but really what gets you in is your work.

You do not need any connections, cliques or degrees to write, or to get published.

I do recommend taking some classes here and there. The Writers Center in Bethesda is awesome, and I think a lot if not most of the classes are virtual. I've taken a few classes at Politics & Prose too. Have not run into any cruel mean girl tactics, but have made friends with other writers.

GL

Any recommendations for good workshops in NYC, that are also kind?

Nope, sorry. I would just do online classes -- check out the Writers Center.

https://www.writer.org/workshops/

But here's a good example -- an online NaNoWriMo workshop.

https://www.writer.org/event/fa21fic12b/

FYI, I've taken classes with Kathryn Johnson and really enjoyed them. Finished a novel while working FT and raising kids b/c of her class. And met several awesome women and we started our own writing group after the class and ended.

Do you know is I can pay the tuition with a 529 plan?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am now so firmly on Dawn Dorland's side that I would actively go out of my way to buy her debut novel, if it ever comes out. I think she's demonstrated honesty, bravery and earnest goodwill, and I genuinely empathize with her scorched-earth method (if it can even be called that -- subsequent details have illuminated quite the opposite) of dealing with an episode in her life that seems like a nightmare come to life. I don't know how I would have reacted after experiencing such utter betrayal, cruelty, and gaslighting. People pretending they would have been too cool to behave like Dorland did are lying to themselves.

Dawn, you most certainly aren't reading this, but I wish you genuine success, peace of mind, and - because it feels germane to this conversation - good health.

I'm with you. Sonya Larson is a predator, just like Harvey Weinstein, except that she preys on women's emotions and vulnerabilities in the same way as Weinstein preyed on young women's bodies.

The horrid Larson supporters like Ng are no better than a bunch of male producers coming out and saying boys will be boys after Weinstein rapes came to light. Just horrid and the fact that some want to play the race card makes it even worse.

It did remind me of how all those republicans said "oh that's locker room talk" about Trump.

Umm, no.

Umm, yes.

The Heathers aren't always white; they can be Asian, Black, and bi-racial.

Abuse is abuse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Roxane’s tweets on this are very disappointing, agreed.

[twitter]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We had a blast at <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LitUp2021?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LitUp2021</a> last week! Writing wisdom from <a href="https://twitter.com/rgay?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@rgay</a> , readings by 3 GrubStreet writers, a staff skit (you don't want to miss the skit, trust us), and more. If you weren't able to join us (or just want to relive it), check out the video here: <a href="https://t.co/iOLfkf72hR">https://t.co/iOLfkf72hR</a></p>— GrubStreet (@GrubWriters) <a href="https://twitter.com/GrubWriters/status/1445067360440930305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Makes more sense now

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Roxane’s tweets on this are very disappointing, agreed.

[twitter]<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">We had a blast at <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/LitUp2021?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#LitUp2021</a> last week! Writing wisdom from <a href="https://twitter.com/rgay?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@rgay</a> , readings by 3 GrubStreet writers, a staff skit (you don't want to miss the skit, trust us), and more. If you weren't able to join us (or just want to relive it), check out the video here: <a href="https://t.co/iOLfkf72hR">https://t.co/iOLfkf72hR</a></p>— GrubStreet (@GrubWriters) <a href="https://twitter.com/GrubWriters/status/1445067360440930305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 4, 2021</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Makes more sense now

ok, I don't know how to embed
https://twitter.com/GrubWriters/status/1445067360440930305?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1445067360440930305%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fpublish.twitter.com%2F%3Fquery%3Dhttps3A2F2Ftwitter.com2FGrubWriters2Fstatus2F1445067360440930305widget%3DTweet

[Anonymous]

Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to chime in that you don't need an MFA to be a writer, and you definitely don't need one to write. You don't need acceptance and approval from the MFA crowd either. Most of the stories I write are largely to amuse myself or because I think readers I know will like them. That's enough for me. If an editor or writing instructor has nice things to say about it, that's really lovely! If they don't, oh well. The story exists whether they like it or not. I have a bunch of unpublished stories and poems and if they never find a published home, I like the idea that my daughter will someday be able to look at them if she wants. Same with my novel draft.

Anyway, I would also recommend Barrelhouse as a good source for virtual classes. They also do some conferences and camps which I've never been able to participate in but have heard are good. It's an indie press but they embrace a lot of work that kind of spans genres and forms. Everyone I've met there has been exceedingly down to earth and not even remotely hung up on whether you have an MFA or where you've been published before.

I've also taken classes with the Writer's Center and there's some overlap in their instructors and community. The more time you spend in the writing/publishing world the more you find this -- you run into the same people over and over again different places. Another reason why I find it extra weird the Chunky Monkeys decided to go after Dorland and turn her into an enemy (when they could have just ignored her!). It's a small world and you have to learn that if someone is not your cup of tea, you can just stay polite and pleasant and avoid them when necessary. Turning it into some kind of fight to the death won't work out well for anyone.

Would you recommend a beginner start with short story or jump into novel right away? I have a lot of experience with professional writing (lawyer) but have not done fiction since college. I enjoyed fiction and was told I was good, but I have not pursued it at all in decades.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

There’s plenty of us POC with you. I don’t think I’d want to be friends with Dorland but Larson’s energy and that group are toxic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

Anyone.in particular?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

That is literally the only card they have left to play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just wanted to chime in that you don't need an MFA to be a writer, and you definitely don't need one to write. You don't need acceptance and approval from the MFA crowd either. Most of the stories I write are largely to amuse myself or because I think readers I know will like them. That's enough for me. If an editor or writing instructor has nice things to say about it, that's really lovely! If they don't, oh well. The story exists whether they like it or not. I have a bunch of unpublished stories and poems and if they never find a published home, I like the idea that my daughter will someday be able to look at them if she wants. Same with my novel draft.

Anyway, I would also recommend Barrelhouse as a good source for virtual classes. They also do some conferences and camps which I've never been able to participate in but have heard are good. It's an indie press but they embrace a lot of work that kind of spans genres and forms. Everyone I've met there has been exceedingly down to earth and not even remotely hung up on whether you have an MFA or where you've been published before.

I've also taken classes with the Writer's Center and there's some overlap in their instructors and community. The more time you spend in the writing/publishing world the more you find this -- you run into the same people over and over again different places. Another reason why I find it extra weird the Chunky Monkeys decided to go after Dorland and turn her into an enemy (when they could have just ignored her!). It's a small world and you have to learn that if someone is not your cup of tea, you can just stay polite and pleasant and avoid them when necessary. Turning it into some kind of fight to the death won't work out well for anyone.

Would you recommend a beginner start with short story or jump into novel right away? I have a lot of experience with professional writing (lawyer) but have not done fiction since college. I enjoyed fiction and was told I was good, but I have not pursued it at all in decades.

I would personally start with some short fiction and see if you can get a couple short stories into good shape before starting a novel. Short stories are a great way to learn craft and experiment, to get better at specific elements of fiction, to get your craft in shape for longer projects. But I also don’t think that means you have to wait to attempt a novel! I have gotten a lot out of some failed novel writing efforts during nanowrimo or 1000 Words of Summer. Letting yourself be ambitious and see what happens can force you to stretch your legs and learn a ton. I would just start with a short fiction class because I think it will give you a better overview of fiction writing than a novel-focused class will.

You also might discover you do better in one form or another. I am a better novelist than a short fiction writer. But I get something out of writing both. It’s also really nice when you are struggling with a project to be able to take a break and work in another form. Take a novel break and write flash. Set down your short story and write some poetry. There are no ties snd honestly whatever gets words on paper is a win in my book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I'm continuing to see more bluechecks/influential Tweeters aggressively standing their ground in making this a race issue, and making Dawn the villain in this, and as a POC it makes me genuinely a little... disoriented? Like, am I a racist for not agreeing with these takes? Am I not as liberal or as progressive as I thought? I feel like I'm going crazy.

Anyone.in particular?

This entire thread (+ more, if you go to her feed):

I'm just like... Sonya is the one who literally hid behind POC by changing her Twitter header photo days before the article dropped? And the group chat that you so identify with is literally filled with white people...? IDK it all feels so off-base to me.