Bad Art Friend

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

Nah, nothing is going through happen to them. The literary scene is fine with their behavior. Roxane Gay and NK Jemisin already had no hesitation in savaging a young college student online and they're still going strong:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

What industry isn't like this? You always have to get the attention of the right people. You have to make friends with talent so you build each other up. It's not kind or egalitarian, but it's the way the world has worked for a very long time. I see the actual crime in all this as so small, taking a facebook post which formed a snippet in a story, which made no money. Certainly, there was lots of bad behavior, but I find it hard to believe that most of the people who are outraged haven't engaged in similar behavior at some point in their lives.

I have never gotten together with my friends to ridicule and ostracize a professional acquaintance for no other reason than because she annoys me. This might seem small to you but to Dorland and people like her, it's devastating. If you really think this is something "everyone" does, I would suggest your perspective is limited and skewed in an unhealthy way and that you need to spend more time with people who don't justify petty cruelty as just the way it is.

Also, Larson used the story to obtain a $25k NEA grant (which is a ton of money for a creative writer, and those grants are limited). So within this world, it really was not an insignificant amount of money or a small offense. Larson used and abused another writer for considerable personal gain.

+1

The excuses are appalling. Larson overtly plagiarized in addition to the cruelty.

[Anonymous]

I am now so firmly on Dawn Dorland's side that I would actively go out of my way to buy her debut novel, if it ever comes out. I think she's demonstrated honesty, bravery and earnest goodwill, and I genuinely empathize with her scorched-earth method (if it can even be called that -- subsequent details have illuminated quite the opposite) of dealing with an episode in her life that seems like a nightmare come to life. I don't know how I would have reacted after experiencing such utter betrayal, cruelty, and gaslighting. People pretending they would have been too cool to behave like Dorland did are lying to themselves.

Dawn, you most certainly aren't reading this, but I wish you genuine success, peace of mind, and - because it feels germane to this conversation - good health.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

PP - I just want to encourage you to keep writing and keep trying. I am in a writers group that is nothing like this. It's very supportive. Everyone is published and no one is an a-hole. (Or at least no one is that way in public, or that I know of.) We aren't as powerful as the Chunky Monkeys by any stretch. But most people aren't. Those $800k book contracts are very rare. You can still write, and still publish, outside of that nasty world.

You have a point of view that by its very definition is different from most writers', being neurodivergent. Tell your stories. Don't let this awful story dissuade you. I don't have an MFA myself but go visit some that you're interested in and see how you feel there. Or look into a low residency MFA which. Or just take some classes and workshops!

Honestly the most inhibiting thing in writing is to worry what other people are thinking about you. You have to teach yourself to silence that voice, or you'll never write.

I'm the PP and wow, thank you for this. I actually teared up. Thank you.

[shan1212]

A Chunky Monkey, Becky Tuch, apologizes and announces she has left the group: https://twitter.com/BeckyLTuch/status/1447603792804032512

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

Nah, nothing is going through happen to them. The literary scene is fine with their behavior. Roxane Gay and NK Jemisin already had no hesitation in savaging a young college student online and they're still going strong:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/11/famous-authors-drag-student-in-ya-twitter-controversy.html

Gay apologized after that one, I wonder if she will again (probably not)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

PP - I just want to encourage you to keep writing and keep trying. I am in a writers group that is nothing like this. It's very supportive. Everyone is published and no one is an a-hole. (Or at least no one is that way in public, or that I know of.) We aren't as powerful as the Chunky Monkeys by any stretch. But most people aren't. Those $800k book contracts are very rare. You can still write, and still publish, outside of that nasty world.

You have a point of view that by its very definition is different from most writers', being neurodivergent. Tell your stories. Don't let this awful story dissuade you. I don't have an MFA myself but go visit some that you're interested in and see how you feel there. Or look into a low residency MFA which. Or just take some classes and workshops!

Honestly the most inhibiting thing in writing is to worry what other people are thinking about you. You have to teach yourself to silence that voice, or you'll never write.

I'm the PP and wow, thank you for this. I actually teared up. Thank you.

You are very welcome. I truly mean it. You have every right to be a writer. Go write!

I will say: the networking part of this world can be important. Connections help a lot when it comes to meeting agents, editors, blah blah blah. But even there - while connections will help grease the wheels and make it easier, you can get published without doing it through a social network. It's just harder. But so what - this whole business is hard! Who'd put themselves through this work and uncertainty if they weren't passionate and drive, though.

Anyway don't get ahead of yourself or psych yourself out about the publishing side. It sounds like you are primarily interested in craft. There are no gatekeeping as far as improving your craft goes. No mean jerk can keep you from sitting at your computer every day and writing your 1000 words, or taking a workshop and producing a series of stories that are YOUR stories.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Well…we’ll see.

PP - I just want to encourage you to keep writing and keep trying. I am in a writers group that is nothing like this. It's very supportive. Everyone is published and no one is an a-hole. (Or at least no one is that way in public, or that I know of.) We aren't as powerful as the Chunky Monkeys by any stretch. But most people aren't. Those $800k book contracts are very rare. You can still write, and still publish, outside of that nasty world.

You have a point of view that by its very definition is different from most writers', being neurodivergent. Tell your stories. Don't let this awful story dissuade you. I don't have an MFA myself but go visit some that you're interested in and see how you feel there. Or look into a low residency MFA which. Or just take some classes and workshops!

Honestly the most inhibiting thing in writing is to worry what other people are thinking about you. You have to teach yourself to silence that voice, or you'll never write.

I'm the PP and wow, thank you for this. I actually teared up. Thank you.

You are very welcome. I truly mean it. You have every right to be a writer. Go write!

I will say: the networking part of this world can be important. Connections help a lot when it comes to meeting agents, editors, blah blah blah. But even there - while connections will help grease the wheels and make it easier, you can get published without doing it through a social network. It's just harder. But so what - this whole business is hard! Who'd put themselves through this work and uncertainty if they weren't passionate and drive, though.

Anyway don't get ahead of yourself or psych yourself out about the publishing side. It sounds like you are primarily interested in craft. There are no gatekeeping as far as improving your craft goes. No mean jerk can keep you from sitting at your computer every day and writing your 1000 words, or taking a workshop and producing a series of stories that are YOUR stories.

^ please excuse all the typos! everyone needs to slow down/get an editor

[Anonymous]

Okay, Chunky Monkeys starting to fall. Here is Becky Tuch attempting an SOS for her career just now. I find it strange that she knew about the "legal shit," but not that it was of Sonya's making. I also find it disingenuous for her to say that Sonya was "generous, funny, and warm" because I sincerely doubt that they started talking smack only when Becky left the group. Nah.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Okay, Chunky Monkeys starting to fall. Here is Becky Tuch attempting an SOS for her career just now. I find it strange that she knew about the "legal shit," but not that it was of Sonya's making. I also find it disingenuous for her to say that Sonya was "generous, funny, and warm" because I sincerely doubt that they started talking smack only when Becky left the group. Nah.

+1 I feel like people would have sounded more surprised when the first "eff that one-kidneyed cringey cringe" talk started, if this was the first time they ever were that vicious about someone they knew.

Still, good to see that the ranks are starting to break.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone see the op-ed piece in the Post today?

It was supposedly about the evils of FB but was another hit job on Dawn, mistakingly reporting that when the story became a "breakout hit" (cough cough) "Dorland, hurt, sues."

This is in the WaPo. Didn't bother to do the reporting, copy desk didn't bother checking. Another hit to Dawn's character.

I am a former newspaper reporter. I've been chastised and busted for saying Elm St. instead of Elm Ave. and this sh*t gets thru???

I mean, the New Yorker analysis of the short story originally misspelled "stationery" (since been corrected). No one is really doing a good job here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:High-profile writers savaging a less-successful and vulnerable writer reminded me of the Isabel Fall tragedy:

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter

I'm never going to buy another book by Celeste Ng or Roxane Gay (or NK Jemisin for that matter). Or anything from Chip Cheek, not that he is anywhere near them as far as success (I'd never heard of him).

Wait what did Jemisin do???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay, Chunky Monkeys starting to fall. Here is Becky Tuch attempting an SOS for her career just now. I find it strange that she knew about the "legal shit," but not that it was of Sonya's making. I also find it disingenuous for her to say that Sonya was "generous, funny, and warm" because I sincerely doubt that they started talking smack only when Becky left the group. Nah.

+1 I feel like people would have sounded more surprised when the first "eff that one-kidneyed cringey cringe" talk started, if this was the first time they ever were that vicious about someone they knew.

Still, good to see that the ranks are starting to break.

+2

If I were casually chatting with my friends after moving away and one of them was like "OMG I hate this kidney donor specifically for donating her kidney, she is so cringe," I'd have a lot of follow up questions about that and not just accept that as normal and go along with it in the name of supporting my friend.

And I say that as someone who, by the way, has been called out by friends or family members for being unreasonably harsh in my criticism of other people. I don't know if I just have a lot of ethical people in my life or what, but on the occasions when I've given into the impulse to lash out at someone unreasonably, I have pretty much always had someone in my life gently say "hey, I know you are upset and your feelings are valid, but also now is a good time to step back and ask if you really mean what you are saying."

The fact that no one in the Chunky Monkeys was mature enough to say that says a lot about the kind of environment it was.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:High-profile writers savaging a less-successful and vulnerable writer reminded me of the Isabel Fall tragedy:

https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/22543858/isabel-fall-attack-helicopter

I'm never going to buy another book by Celeste Ng or Roxane Gay (or NK Jemisin for that matter). Or anything from Chip Cheek, not that he is anywhere near them as far as success (I'd never heard of him).

Wait what did Jemisin do???

Read the Isabel Fall story. Her role in that horror was not good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think one of the things that bothers me deeply about this whole mess, and other similar stories like the Isabel Fall story, are that they seem like a confirmation of sorts of what I have suspected MFA programs and writer groups to be like, and what it is like trying to make it as a new writer. (Of course, the cruelty itself is the worst thing, but that's been covered by many others, so I won't rehash here.) I have been writing for years, I've had positive feedback and encouragement to go further with writing, and I would love to dive in and get an MFA and really learn about the craft of writing. I want to become better. However, I've always held back, because I've been worried about exactly this sort of thing. I'm a quiet person who isn't very sophisticated when it comes to navigating treacherous social waters like this. I'm neurodivergent; this is beyond my literal social abilities. The idea of trying to hang with groups like GrubStreet in order to become a better writer is completely intimidating. I am not worried about my ability to learn and improve my actual writing in an MFA program, but I know I could not excel at the social climbing and general nastiness that seems to be part and parcel of the programs and the writers groups.

Because, let's face it, Celeste Ng, Sonya Larson, NK Jemisin, Roxane Gay, Chip Cheek, Calvin Hennick, and the other writers at the center of inexplicably cruel destructions of budding writers like this, well, nothing will happen to them for what they've done. Their victims won't recover, but they'll be just fine. Isabel Fall is literally destroyed as a person. Dawn Dorland will never publish even if she wanted to, unless it is a predatory "tell all" contract, but probably not even that since what else is there to say? Meanwhile literary gatekeepers like Helen Rosner are out there defending the indefensible, so you know where the publishers stand.

I want to learn to be a better writer, but at what cost? Does improving your writing mean losing your ethics? Does it mean you have to be willing to savage people behind their backs? To turn into someone who delights in mindless social destruction? Is it even worth trying if you know you don't have the social skills to navigate such treacherous interpersonal waters? I don't know, but the whole story saddens me on an additional personal level because I know one thing for sure: I'll never fit into that world. I can't. And it seems that's the price of admission for learning to be a better writer.

Hi,

I am a successful published novelist (I make a living writing) and these MFA programs and writing groups are so not essential to success its crazy. I mean just look at the publishing career of Sonya Larson.

And do not confuse Helen Rosner with publishers. Publishers care about a story that will sell. Yes, personal connections can help sometimes, but really what gets you in is your work.

You do not need any connections, cliques or degrees to write, or to get published.

I do recommend taking some classes here and there. The Writers Center in Bethesda is awesome, and I think a lot if not most of the classes are virtual. I've taken a few classes at Politics & Prose too. Have not run into any cruel mean girl tactics, but have made friends with other writers.

GL